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Old 2009-12-10, 00:18   Link #4021
Kirroha
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Maybe George is more like Kinzo than people think... XD

Regarding the Shannon cutting herself out part, I think it'll be pretty suspicious when people see the shutter to the rose garden storehouse with a huge hole in it. But Shannon sure is suspicious in EP1... Her corpse is the last to be noticed and pulled most of the reader's attention to it, yet it was a corpse that most people didn't see properly.
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Old 2009-12-10, 00:21   Link #4022
Kirroha
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I just can't get rid of the nagging suspicion that Shannon's been making use of Kanon all along. And that can really explain why his corpse keeps disappearing and yet it can be said in red that he's dead.
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Old 2009-12-10, 02:16   Link #4023
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Genji and Gohda would definitely not mistake another person for Kanon.
The only one who can use Kanon's name is the person himself. A different human cannot use that name!
This is one of those reds that makes me confused. Is it there an international law or something that prevents people from naming their child Kanon? Among the 6.5 billion of humans in the world isn't there anyone who is named Kanon or is nicknamed Kanon?

Whatever.... but I keep getting the feeling that when Ryukishi had the idea of the red text he put himself inside a mined field.
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Old 2009-12-10, 03:30   Link #4024
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I guess the largest hint to this Shannon-Kanon situation is Ep2 'fake Kanon' scene. Shannon suddenly ran away exactly after the moment Kanon said something about Rosa (I'm not sure and can't check it now, but the moment was quite suspicious). Even assuming the whole scene was a fake one, Ryukishi still gave a lot of details about it.
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Old 2009-12-10, 04:12   Link #4025
Kirroha
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That's right. Nobody will mistake another human for Kanon, but it might not be a human. It could very well be an illusion Shannon is puppeting from the background. And... er, speaking of how Shannon could possibly get something so real to create an illusion of Kanon, it's a Devil's Proof! I refuse to explain!
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Old 2009-12-10, 04:31   Link #4026
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How about Kanon's dead body being in the kitchen?

It is found and since the culprit still want to keep Kanon as a suspect he kills Nanjo and Kumasawa.
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Old 2009-12-10, 05:00   Link #4027
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is one of those reds that makes me confused. Is it there an international law or something that prevents people from naming their child Kanon? Among the 6.5 billion of humans in the world isn't there anyone who is named Kanon or is nicknamed Kanon?
It's clear that Beatrice is referring to the people who are actually on the island and involved in the mystery. She'll say things like "Rosa is dead" but obviously there are millions of Rosas in the world; she obviously means Ushiromiya Rosa, and specifically (just in case there's another one) the one on Rokkenjima.

I don't think she'd use a dirty trick. When she says "only Kanon can use that name," she means only the person we know of as Kanon can use the name Kanon in the context of the story. I take this to mean that Kanon cannot be impersonated. However, it is clear that "Kanon" is nothing more than a title, just a title that happens to belong to only one person (the person whose name we don't know but call Kanon). Whether that's a hint that "Kanon" can die and Kanon-the-person can go on living, or merely a trick Beatrice used to shoot down Battler's theory and close a loophole, I don't know.

Obviously Kanon's real name is going to be important, as it's a Chekhov's Gun (especially after he almost says it in ep2). There's a reason we don't know it, and it's going to be some reason I suspect people have already guessed (he's the other Battler, he's an Ushiromiya, he's the boy from 19 years ago, he's Amakusa, he's Rosa's baby daddy, etc., something that would be obvious if he said it).
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Old 2009-12-10, 05:02   Link #4028
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Maybe Kanon has the same name as someone of the family to make fake red truth?

Like if his real name is George, you could say in red "George is dead" while referring to Kanon while the real George is alive and killing everyone or something?
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Old 2009-12-10, 05:32   Link #4029
vendredi
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
That was what I suspected - Shannon's flat-chested!
Pettan, Pettan, Tsurupettan...

Quote:
Genji and Gohda would definitely not mistake another person for Kanon.
The only one who can use Kanon's name is the person himself. A different human cannot use that name!
Quote:
However, it is clear that "Kanon" is nothing more than a title, just a title that happens to belong to only one person (the person whose name we don't know but call Kanon). Whether that's a hint that "Kanon" can die and Kanon-the-person can go on living, or merely a trick Beatrice used to shoot down Battler's theory and close a loophole, I don't know.
I recall a suggestion in the Episode 3 (maybe the Episode 4) thread that you could possibly split hairs on the definition of "killing" - perhaps Kanon as a title is killed, but the individual survives. Granted, I don't think we've had any examples of someone slipping around the "death" definition yet.

Regarding the Episode 2 scene where Shannon runs away to grab a spiderweb, I'm curious: "Why a spiderweb"?

Diehard anti-fantasists of course can completely ignore it, but the question is interesting for the other positions - for the pro-fantasy camp, maybe it represents a counter to Beatrice's magic in some way?

More importantly, perhaps it's an important hint for those who take the fantasy scenes metaphorically (myself included). The fact that the "fake Kanon" recoils from the spiderweb suggests to me a metaphor for arachnophobia, perhaps?

I don't think any of the cast has been revealed to be particularly phobic around bugs and spiders, but it might be a clue to consider.
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Old 2009-12-10, 08:47   Link #4030
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's clear that Beatrice is referring to the people who are actually on the island and involved in the mystery. She'll say things like "Rosa is dead" but obviously there are millions of Rosas in the world; she obviously means Ushiromiya Rosa, and specifically (just in case there's another one) the one on Rokkenjima.

I don't think she'd use a dirty trick. When she says "only Kanon can use that name," she means only the person we know of as Kanon can use the name Kanon in the context of the story. I take this to mean that Kanon cannot be impersonated. However, it is clear that "Kanon" is nothing more than a title, just a title that happens to belong to only one person (the person whose name we don't know but call Kanon). Whether that's a hint that "Kanon" can die and Kanon-the-person can go on living, or merely a trick Beatrice used to shoot down Battler's theory and close a loophole, I don't know.

Obviously Kanon's real name is going to be important, as it's a Chekhov's Gun (especially after he almost says it in ep2). There's a reason we don't know it, and it's going to be some reason I suspect people have already guessed (he's the other Battler, he's an Ushiromiya, he's the boy from 19 years ago, he's Amakusa, he's Rosa's baby daddy, etc., something that would be obvious if he said it).
You mean it is clear that it's a name or an alias or a nickname. Nothing suggests that it is a "tittle", apart from Battler's crazy theories.
Anyway even in the closed circle of Rokkenjima the idea that no one can claim what is in fact a false name seems definitely odd to me. I'd expect something more like "there is only one person that ever claimed the name Kanon in all the games".
Yeah I'm a nitpicker but in the context of this game and all that it implies absolutely precise red truths are required to avoid misunderstandings.

I think it's the same problem with "this door can only be opened with a master key" which should rather be worded as "no one in this island can open this door without a master key"
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Old 2009-12-10, 11:20   Link #4031
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
I really think that Shannon could possibly be the "Takano" of Umineko. Most of the time, Kanon's body wasn't found, right? She could very well have disguised Kanon's body to be hers, and escaped. That way, it could be said that Kanon is dead, but not necessarily that Shannon is dead. Also, it could explain why Battler keeps surviving until the end.

Shannon might very well be one 'back person', but I definitely still suspect Natsuhi for EP1, Rosa for EP2, Eva for EP3 and Krauss or maybe Kyrie for EP4. Shannon might've made use of quite a lot of people... Also, Shannon isn't her real name, so Shannon is dead might be able to slip away as such.

I'm replaying the question arcs now to see if the theory fits. Currently, I can explain EP1 with this:

Shannon is in love with Battler (well, she did say in EP3 that she remembered Battler from 12 years ago very well, and the promise he had made), but she is being pursued by George's obsessive love. After all, it's never shown that Shannon's in love with George, only George to Shannon - at least not in front of Battler. Same could be said for Kanon and Jessica. Shannon feels a strong link between herself and the dead Beatrice as she views a similarity between George and Kinzo. (Even Gaap said that George can suceed Kinzo's madness). Also, Shannon's always been looked down upon, and she wants to show that she is much stronger than she looks. She might've gotten herself broken after all those repeated pursuing by George. Even Eva might've wanted George to be happy and actually wanted to force Shannon into marriage instead of the other way around.

In Episode 1, this could very well have happened:

- Shannon dressed up as Beatrice and gave Maria the letter. Simple enough.
- Shannon conspired with Natsuhi and Gohda.
- Natsuhi put paint on her door to make herself look like a victim.
- Shannon killed the 4 adults, Gohda and herself faked their deaths with a bunch of bloody makeup.
- Natsuhi did not really lock the door, she set it up such that Shannon and Gohda could still escape the storehouse.
- Kanon suspects Shannon. She locks him up in the boiler room and disguises herself as Kanon.
- Gohda hides under Eva and Hideyoshi's bed or something. He kills Eva and Hideyoshi and return to under their beds.
- Shannon as Kanon pretended to find the corpses. She drew the magic circle and ran off for a wirecutter, pretending that it wasn't there earlier.
- Gohda leaves the room after the chain of the closed room is broken. That way, it makes a perfect closed room.
- Everyone smells the strange odour from the boiler room. Shannon is shocked, noticing that the real Kanon might've broken out. She runs over there quickly.
- The slam sound is caused by Kanon trying to leave the room. Shannon as Kanon ran up immediately.
- She kills Kanon and runs away into the courtyard. She sheds her disguise and hides.
- When everyone locks themselves in the study, Gohda hiding there is the one who put the letter there so that they'd split up.
- Meanwhile, Shannon disguises as Beatrice again and tricks Maria. She kills Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa.
- Gohda sneaks out behind the 4 people after they receive the phone call from Maria and run out of the study.
- Shannon hides somewhere in the parlour. She leaves behind a letter for Natsuhi.
- Natsuhi reads the letter. Maria sees her read the letter. The letter contains something regarding their alliance that pissed Natsuhi off. She runs out to confront Shannon.
- Natsuhi/Shannon wedges the candlestick there to stop the kids from going out.
- Natsuhi is killed by Gohda for threatening to break their contract.
- When the kids break out of the room, Shannon sneaks out behind them.
- Gohda and Shannon confront the kids.
- What happened to them afterwards is unknown.
Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not a culprit!

This only applied to EP5 technically, but after what happened to her then, I highly doubt she's capable of committing any crime.
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Old 2009-12-10, 11:25   Link #4032
Kaiba
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Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not a culprit!

This only applied to EP5 technically, but after what happened to her then, I highly doubt she's capable of committing any crime.
While I generally disagree with Work and am a huge proponent of the Shannon theories, I'll agree with Work here. Natsuhi from my perspective is the only person aside from obviously Battler that we can say with pretty much certainty has absolutely nothing to do with the murders.
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Old 2009-12-10, 13:43   Link #4033
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
Maybe George is more like Kinzo than people think... XD

Regarding the Shannon cutting herself out part, I think it'll be pretty suspicious when people see the shutter to the rose garden storehouse with a huge hole in it. But Shannon sure is suspicious in EP1... Her corpse is the last to be noticed and pulled most of the reader's attention to it, yet it was a corpse that most people didn't see properly.
Why would anybody have seen the hole, though? The garden shed was out of the way, and for all the survivors knew, everybody inside it was dead. There'd be no reason to go back there.
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Old 2009-12-10, 14:09   Link #4034
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Originally Posted by vendredi View Post
Regarding the Episode 2 scene where Shannon runs away to grab a spiderweb, I'm curious: "Why a spiderweb"?

Diehard anti-fantasists of course can completely ignore it, but the question is interesting for the other positions - for the pro-fantasy camp, maybe it represents a counter to Beatrice's magic in some way?

More importantly, perhaps it's an important hint for those who take the fantasy scenes metaphorically (myself included). The fact that the "fake Kanon" recoils from the spiderweb suggests to me a metaphor for arachnophobia, perhaps?

I don't think any of the cast has been revealed to be particularly phobic around bugs and spiders, but it might be a clue to consider.
Given that Nanjo and Kumasawa's corpses supposedly vanished from a locked room, despite Culprit X not having any of the keys, I'm inclined to think that there wasn't an attack in the first place. About the only way you could construct the locked room is if Shannon, Genji, or Gohda locked it while the corpses were not in the room, which means they're all lying. Since it's pretty unlikely that all of them are murderers, what probably happened is that they helped Nanjo and Kumasawa fake their deaths for the purpose of tricking someone in Rosa's group.

The bloodstains all over the servants' room could have been made with the same red substance used to paint the magic circles. Without Nanjo to say otherwise, it might be hard for Rosa's group to tell the difference, especially if they've been primed to think that they're looking at a murder scene. It could even be chicken blood or something. Since Kanon used the same substance to fake his death in the boiler room in EP1, maybe Shannon went down there in EP2 because that's where the substance was being stored? (Assuming she actually went down to the boiler room at all, of course.)
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Old 2009-12-10, 22:11   Link #4035
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You mean it is clear that it's a name or an alias or a nickname. Nothing suggests that it is a "tittle", apart from Battler's crazy theories.
Anyway even in the closed circle of Rokkenjima the idea that no one can claim what is in fact a false name seems definitely odd to me. I'd expect something more like "there is only one person that ever claimed the name Kanon in all the games".
Yeah I'm a nitpicker but in the context of this game and all that it implies absolutely precise red truths are required to avoid misunderstandings.

I think it's the same problem with "this door can only be opened with a master key" which should rather be worded as "no one in this island can open this door without a master key"
Let's look at it this way: Red text like this only refers to the inside of the cat box. In other words, what happens on Rokkenjima during the game time. In that sense, it really is impossible for another Kanon to exist, and if no other person takes the name Kanon in a particular game, it is...obviously...impossible to go back in time and make them do so. Think of the game board as a separate world and the contradictions disappear.

If something is impossible based on the rules of the game, the red text has no problem saying it's impossible. At least that's my theory.
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Old 2009-12-10, 22:27   Link #4036
Marion
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While I generally disagree with Work and am a huge proponent of the Shannon theories, I'll agree with Work here. Natsuhi from my perspective is the only person aside from obviously Battler that we can say with pretty much certainty has absolutely nothing to do with the murders.
I myself lump Krauss into that too, along with Maria. Maria because she's a little child - she just serves as the gullible kid who sends the messages and is the murderer's fan because she thinks she'll go to the golden land.

Krauss, on the other hand, is just a complete incompetent boob. Sorry but after EP 5 I think he's the most incompetent human character there.
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Old 2009-12-10, 22:51   Link #4037
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I myself lump Krauss into that too, along with Maria. Maria because she's a little child - she just serves as the gullible kid who sends the messages and is the murderer's fan because she thinks she'll go to the golden land.

Krauss, on the other hand, is just a complete incompetent boob. Sorry but after EP 5 I think he's the most incompetent human character there.
Note that I mean that there is no way that Natsuhi is involved in the crime whatsoever, whether a murderer, someone who covers up deaths, or a staker. While I would generally view them as innocent, I can't really state it with complete certainty to the degree that I can with Natsuhi.

Maria I think there is a possibility that she does know the truth as to what is going on, and may even have actually deliberately helped Beatrice in other ways than the letter. While I view this as unlikely, it is a possibility which I haven't ruled out yet.

I really don't think any of the adults are involved, but Krauss I actually view as the second-most likely of the adults to be involved with the crime, coming behind Hideyoshi (whom we know nothing about and thus have really nothing to prove or disprove with really). Eva and Rosa are way too obvious, Natsuhi definitely isn't involved, and Rudolf and Kyrie had their entire faces smashed in the First Twilight of Episode 1 so I count them out. The fact that Krauss had half his face smashed means I think it's possible he faked his death (I would say I'm 95% certain he's dead, but that's better than Kyrie and Rudolf whom I'm 99.9% certain are dead) and it's possible he's faking his incompetence. Just saying I don't think that they're culprits, but I wouldn't clear them to the level that I would Natsuhi.
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Old 2009-12-10, 23:26   Link #4038
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Let's look at it this way: Red text like this only refers to the inside of the cat box. In other words, what happens on Rokkenjima during the game time. In that sense, it really is impossible for another Kanon to exist, and if no other person takes the name Kanon in a particular game, it is...obviously...impossible to go back in time and make them do so. Think of the game board as a separate world and the contradictions disappear.

If something is impossible based on the rules of the game, the red text has no problem saying it's impossible. At least that's my theory.
For the red text in question, I agree with you. Only Kanon within the gameboard is being referred to. However, it should be clear that some red truth(such as Knox's rules) can reach outside the gameboard as long it's still a mystery:

繰り返します。神の名において、そのような薬も機械も存在させません。未来永劫、存在することも許しません。
I repeat. In the name of God, such drugs and machinery are not allowed to exist. For all eternity, he will not allow their existence.


(That red text was in response to Beatrice's claim that Kinzo could have invented a teleporter or a drug that can turn you into fog so you can slip through a crack in a door)
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Old 2009-12-10, 23:56   Link #4039
Marion
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I really don't think any of the adults are involved, but Krauss I actually view as the second-most likely of the adults to be involved with the crime, coming behind Hideyoshi (whom we know nothing about and thus have really nothing to prove or disprove with really). Eva and Rosa are way too obvious, Natsuhi definitely isn't involved, and Rudolf and Kyrie had their entire faces smashed in the First Twilight of Episode 1 so I count them out. The fact that Krauss had half his face smashed means I think it's possible he faked his death (I would say I'm 95% certain he's dead, but that's better than Kyrie and Rudolf whom I'm 99.9% certain are dead) and it's possible he's faking his incompetence. Just saying I don't think that they're culprits, but I wouldn't clear them to the level that I would Natsuhi.
But Battler saw Krauss with his face smashed in half. I understand the theory that Shannon didn't die because Battler didn't see the corpse, but Krauss is different. I doubt there's any amazing makeup that can make it look that real, especially in the mid 80's.

Counting out Rudolf and Kyrie just because of an early death doesn't sound right to me. It's ignoring a lot of other things that might be there. I doubt myself Rudolf is part of the murders, but I have doubts on Kyrie here and there.

And Krauss faking incompetence is impossible. In EP 5 when his "wow you really did that" moment shows up it shows that he's probably as gullible as Maria.

Spoiler for EP 5:
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Old 2009-12-11, 00:37   Link #4040
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But Battler saw Krauss with his face smashed in half. I understand the theory that Shannon didn't die because Battler didn't see the corpse, but Krauss is different. I doubt there's any amazing makeup that can make it look that real, especially in the mid 80's.
Heh, to me, I think it is more possible to do it with makeup than what we saw of Kyrie's and Rudolf's faces in the anime and manga, where we really could see inside their skulls. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Krauss is dead, I just think the chances that he faked his death is slightly higher than the chances that Rudolf or Kyrie did.

Quote:
Counting out Rudolf and Kyrie just because of an early death doesn't sound right to me. It's ignoring a lot of other things that might be there. I doubt myself Rudolf is part of the murders, but I have doubts on Kyrie here and there.
I think Kyrie played a heavy role in Episode 3 where things went wrong but I can't view someone who gets murdered right off the bat in the first two games as a culprit.

Quote:
And Krauss faking incompetence is impossible. In EP 5 when his "wow you really did that" moment shows up it shows that he's probably as gullible as Maria.
Haven't played Episode 5, but what? What? Is there a slightly more detailed more explanation for that? I mean, wow, that changes my opinion of Krauss a ton.
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