AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-12-10, 11:22   Link #4361
Isekaijin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
You know. I've been wondering for a while.

Did someone state in red that the dungeon where Kyrie's group was being held captive in EP4 was actually below Kuwadorian? That Goldsmith thing was very nice and all but how much of that is actually true?

So I'll try my blue truth.

The dungeon was actually in a place close enough for the culprit to carry the bodies of Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, Shannon and Kanon. There are two passages, a secret one which connects to the mansion and another known one which was the one they used to escape. They probably were disoriented while escaping. The passage doesn't connect the mansion to Kuwadorian.


That pretty much explains Gaap's gaps.
Isekaijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-10, 12:53   Link #4362
Vega Lyra
<Congratulations>!!!!
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Belgium
Hey...Can somebody tell me whether Nanjo's granddaughter was mentioned when Ange visited Nanjo's son? Is his granddaughter the daughter of the said son?
The thing is, I have a hunch...and I want to first confirm it, even though I just read through the Ange/Nanjo son scene. I could have missed something...
__________________
Vega Lyra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-10, 16:34   Link #4363
imaginari
Purupurupiko-Man
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: My beloved hometown, the mackerel river running through it
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
In EP4, when Beato first talks to Battler on the phone, she says something like: "Although we've slapped each other with abuse and fought many times before, this is the first time we've actually talked to each other on the game board." Then, before she confronts him over his sin, she starts talking about a bunch of things that sound like they require meta knowledge:
  • golden butterflies and anti-magic toxin, not mentioned to Battler this episode
  • the existence of multiple games and multiple worlds
  • Battler's explanation of magical elements that no one observed as the "witch's illusion", which he's only done in the meta world
You can't say that Battler died and this is a fake scene either, because Battler is alive at midnight on October 5th. So has anyone come up with any kind of viable explanation for how this conversation could have taken place, other than A) Beato is a human with memory of past games or B) she's an actual supernatural entity?
How about this: C) Meta-Beatrice is created in part from Real-Beatrice's fantasies, and in turn "directs" the fantasy scenes to be consistent with things that Real-Battler will hear, including the balcony speech itself. Therefore it is likely that both Beatrices will talk about similar things.

Last edited by imaginari; 2009-12-10 at 16:35. Reason: plural
imaginari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-10, 16:54   Link #4364
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
So according to that theory, Real-Beatrice has some kind of complex fantasy life she's made up that parallels what Battler's been experiencing in the meta world? Or am I misunderstanding you?
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-10, 17:51   Link #4365
Arkwright
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
In EP4, when Beato first talks to Battler on the phone, she says something like: "Although we've slapped each other with abuse and fought many times before, this is the first time we've actually talked to each other on the game board." Then, before she confronts him over his sin, she starts talking about a bunch of things that sound like they require meta knowledge:
  • golden butterflies and anti-magic toxin, not mentioned to Battler this episode
  • the existence of multiple games and multiple worlds
  • Battler's explanation of magical elements that no one observed as the "witch's illusion", which he's only done in the meta world
You can't say that Battler died and this is a fake scene either, because Battler is alive at midnight on October 5th. So has anyone come up with any kind of viable explanation for how this conversation could have taken place, other than A) Beato is a human with memory of past games or B) she's an actual supernatural entity?
Isn't this the same situation as Kyrie's phone call with Battler?

I.e., D) All of it is jibber-jabber intending to make Battler think a witch did it, and multiple people might have been in on it.

That's assuming Battler is a reliable narrator in the first place. Actually, just came up with another possibility. E) Battler actually started drinking before he took the test, or perhaps Maria drugged him somehow, so he imagined the whole phone call, or most of it.
Arkwright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 00:25   Link #4366
Metaler
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil - São Paulo
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega Lyra View Post
Hey...Can somebody tell me whether Nanjo's granddaughter was mentioned when Ange visited Nanjo's son? Is his granddaughter the daughter of the said son?
The thing is, I have a hunch...and I want to first confirm it, even though I just read through the Ange/Nanjo son scene. I could have missed something...
I don't think so... Well, I'm not exactly sure either. They mostly talked about that letter and PIN.
You're thinking that Nanjo's granddaughter died and not him, right? She did have some kind of disease, after all.
Metaler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 00:26   Link #4367
Xapheron
Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Singapore
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
How about this: C) Meta-Beatrice is created in part from Real-Beatrice's fantasies, and in turn "directs" the fantasy scenes to be consistent with things that Real-Battler will hear, including the balcony speech itself. Therefore it is likely that both Beatrices will talk about similar things.
Isn't that basically what's happening? That's why Meta!Beatrice wants Meta!Battler to solve the mysteries. Since Meta!Battler is essentially the sub-conscious of Piece!Battler, what Meta!Battler wants to do will be done by Piece!Battler. There's that scene where Piece!Beatrice tells Meta!Beatrice in Kinzo's study that she's tired and doesn't want to play anymore and wants to her to take over. Yeah, she makes fantasy scenes which are symbolic/representative of what really is happening. You don't seriously believe that loser flags helped Krauss beat Goat-kun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkwright View Post
Isn't this the same situation as Kyrie's phone call with Battler?

I.e., D) All of it is jibber-jabber intending to make Battler think a witch did it, and multiple people might have been in on it.

That's assuming Battler is a reliable narrator in the first place. Actually, just came up with another possibility. E) Battler actually started drinking before he took the test, or perhaps Maria drugged him somehow, so he imagined the whole phone call, or most of it.
Huh? IIRC, he wasn't drinking before the phone call, so anything due to effects of alcohol are out. As for drugging, I really don't think... The phone call could have been a really clever record, isn't that hard predicting a panicking Battler will say.
Xapheron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 02:30   Link #4368
vendredi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaler View Post
My guess is that both Beato and Battler are like...
Spoiler for Higurashi:
I'm hesitant to characterize them as travelers to the same degree; I've argued in the Maria thread that Umineko seems to smack much more strongly of Catholic elements rather than the Buddhist ones in Higurashi, and I don't think Ryukishi07 would recycle the same mechanic so strongly.

I'm more of the opinion is that the Meta-world is exactly how it's presented, a place where Beatrice pulled in the first Battler that allows Beatrice to either:

a)view various different kakera

or the one I prefer,

b)present a depiction of alternate events (not actually viewing different realities, but Beatrice either simply conjuring up an illusory vision of events, or perhaps simply "resetting the island" - turning back the clock, bringing people to life, etc.; hence the description of the events as her "gameboard")
vendredi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 04:41   Link #4369
Echoman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by vendredi View Post
I'm hesitant to characterize them as travelers to the same degree; I've argued in the Maria thread that Umineko seems to smack much more strongly of Catholic elements rather than the Buddhist ones in Higurashi, and I don't think Ryukishi07 would recycle the same mechanic so strongly.

I'm more of the opinion is that the Meta-world is exactly how it's presented, a place where Beatrice pulled in the first Battler that allows Beatrice to either:

a)view various different kakera

or the one I prefer,

b)present a depiction of alternate events (not actually viewing different realities, but Beatrice either simply conjuring up an illusory vision of events, or perhaps simply "resetting the island" - turning back the clock, bringing people to life, etc.; hence the description of the events as her "gameboard")
The way Bernkastel was talking about it to Ange, it really seemed to me that it was more the "a" explanation.
Echoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 04:44   Link #4370
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega Lyra View Post
Hey...Can somebody tell me whether Nanjo's granddaughter was mentioned when Ange visited Nanjo's son? Is his granddaughter the daughter of the said son?
The thing is, I have a hunch...and I want to first confirm it, even though I just read through the Ange/Nanjo son scene. I could have missed something...
It's in the tips. Masayuki Nanjo had a daughter afflicted by an incurable disease and she died after the Rokkenjima incident.

It is most likely the grandchild Nanjo was talking about in Ep3
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 06:31   Link #4371
vendredi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoman View Post
The way Bernkastel was talking about it to Ange, it really seemed to me that it was more the "a" explanation.
Actually, it's Bernkastel's nature that makes me think of the B explanation - it's implied that both Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are "Voyager" witches from the TIPS given at the end of episode 4 - witches that can traverse the sea of kakera.

Beatrice, on the other hand, is specifically not mentioned as a Voyager witch and it is implied that she is rooted to her home kakera; although weaker than Bern and Lambda she has a home court advantage in that sense. Hence, I'm not convinced that Beatrice and Battler are shifting through various kakera. Granted, it may be easier to view different kakera than it is to travel to them, but still it strikes me that the ability to access other kakera at all is special to the Voyager witches.
vendredi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 10:33   Link #4372
Kamar
Author Wannabe
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
I was under the impression that what made a witch a Voyager was the ability to use her powers outside of her own domain, not necessarily the ability to travel.
Kamar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 10:40   Link #4373
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
any red truth stated by Beatrice and Lambadelta can be accepted to be absolutely true, without word tricks! This means that if Beatrice claims "Nanjo is dead", it means that the Nanjo who lives on Rokkenjima and is Kinzo's friend is dead, not some stupid tricks like a Nanjo in Africa is dead. And if Beatrice claims no body doubles, then there are no body doubles.

I am afraid saying Lambda's red truth can be accepted and hers contained no word tricks would put you in trouble for EP5, unless of course you meant the blue texts just worked for EP4.

The problem is: Sometimes the context was clear, but sometimes not. Anyone can argue about whether it is clear but cannot prove it. Let's settle it till the truth is revealed, perhaps you are correct. The only thing I am sure is we cannot persuade each other.

I don't take sleeping pills so I don't know how long it should take for someone to fall asleep under the pills' effect. And especially I don't know how long it took for adult who had been dosed with child sedative. And to think that the sedatives had to be distributed for six adults, I really don't know. So it is unclear how long they could sustain without falling asleep (though if they had taken alcohol, it should be quick).

How long does it take to go from the mansion to the chapel? Five minutes? Ten minutes? I don't know.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-11 at 11:00.
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 10:45   Link #4374
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I admit I didn't quite followed the whole discussion. But why is there any need for the culprit to use Rosa's (or whatever) sleeping pills? This whole situation was carefully planned beforehand and there is evidence that the culprit used a wide array of different weapons (including guns), I don't think it would be so strange if he is in possess of some sort of poison or strong sedative.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 10:48   Link #4375
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Because my stance is Rosa unintentionally murdered the six in the chapel, and she was not Beatrice and knew nothing about Beatrice's plan before she was told the truth by Genji.

The only drug she could access to was the child-sedative she used on Maria. (and Natsuhi's headache and sedative? I actually forgot where I knew she had the sedative. Can anyone tell me which episode (EP3?) and which chapter? Thanks)

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-11 at 11:01.
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 12:31   Link #4376
Arkwright
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Ep3 first twilight:

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!


Should I take this as confirmation that these 6 people are 6 distinct people? (For example, that Shannon is not Kanon, or whatever else.)

The 6 people died instantly!
None of the 6 people committed suicide!


Furthermore these two lines, particularly the first one, seem interesting to me in that they by necessity include "Kinzo." It says he died instantly, but I can't really imagine any natural death being described that way, so this seems like a suggestion that he died by murder (even if it happened in the past.)

Alternately, this could be referring to a different "Kinzo" whose identity we're not clear about (inherited name), which would be interesting in itself.

Kanon has always seemed like a candidate for being the other Kinzo or Battler, although if I take the "6 people" literally, he can't be this Kinzo at least.
Arkwright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 12:43   Link #4377
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
We discussed that not much time ago. Even a natural death can be considered to be instant, like in the case of a heart attack or a stroke (embolism or thrombosis)
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 16:38   Link #4378
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Because my stance is Rosa unintentionally murdered the six in the chapel
And we all continue to tell you how improbable this is.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-12, 14:03   Link #4379
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
If you say my stance is highly improbable, then

the remaining possibility was: Rosa intentionally killed the sixes?

or someone else unintentionally/intentionally killed the sixes? (real Beatrice, staker X, murderer X, or anyone?)

Do you think they were drugged before? Why Rosa was not drugged if so? Did Rosa know the identity of the murderer then, we knew that at least someone had three pieces of gold beforehand?

Or do you really think Rosa would plan to kill the six? The scene which shown her encounter with Beatrice was non-existent or an act put by her and imposter? If she had planned all these, why it did not happen in other episodes?

There are a lot to yet to be explained even if my stance was wrong,.

(I am arrogant at times, if I have annoyed you in the past. I apologize to you here. But I feel I can't continue this discussion since your wording implied me as the only one wrong in this whole thread)

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-12 at 14:24.
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-12, 15:01   Link #4380
Knicknevin
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
I think that the gold sitting on the table represented the majority of Kinzo's original gold. My personal theory is that Kinzo fooled the bank president he gave the one gold ingot to, and only had a couple ingots of genuine gold: The one that the pres took, and Krauss eventually found and hid, and the three that someone else found and put on that table.

Since Rosa solved the epitaph in Episode 3, it's possible she also figured it out in Ep 2 as well. And if she realized that most of Kinzo's gold was fake, she knew right away that the plan of splitting it among the siblings wouldn't work. She wanted those three ingots for herself, so she (or whoever the real killer is if it wasn't her) drugged the others and disemboweled them.
Knicknevin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.