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Old 2009-12-13, 00:13   Link #1721
Nosauz
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I don't even care what hatsukoi sold because it was bad and in some parts trite. I think Kappa arc and painting girl arc were probably the only real good things to come out of that series. Medaka is frustrating because of the idol worship of medaka, as if the character is infallable, and everything she does is the epitomy of good and righteous. I'm sorry but to me that just screams bad writing because there are many cases where medaka is in fact not right yet the author keeps trying to pull the wool over our eyes and says that she is perfect.

@darknemo

Oneshot doesn't mean bad!! Some of adachi's best work is in his one shots. Also if you look seo koijima who wrote suzuka/ kimi no irumachi his BEST work is a one shot called Half & Half. One shots are way to get recognized in a very competive arena, they display your ability to tell a story in a set number of frames like short stories. If you look at raymond carver the master of short stories, I bet many of hist stories are more memorable than serials.
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Old 2009-12-13, 01:25   Link #1722
Rejuvenation
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Do people even read the words in this series? Medaka herself even says that she isn't right but she tries to be right. Unzen himself kept on criticizing her to the very end and even states how she may be wrong at various points. She just follows her own beliefs even if it means rejecting the reality around her. Medaka herself even states that she isn't perfect either and that she is full of contradictions more than once over the course of the series. In terms of her trying to do what she thinks is right, she does what most other shounen main characters do. If you can't be reasoned with she will beat you down if you are a threat to her friends and other people. (Or a threat to herself post-Nabeshima pep talk.) If you aren't in the first category, she will use her abilities to pressure you into what she believes is right which we saw with the kendo club and the members of the swimming club.

Being super human does not mean she is infallible. She is just "an abnormal even among abnormals" like the rest of the people in the 13 party so she seems that way at first glance. Lets not forget that Unzen thinks he is still right too and has a fair share of idol worship among his enforcers like Medaka has among her student council.

If anything, it just seems to be an ability among certain abnormals to garner that level of devotion from others. Of course Shiranui outright hates said ability which makes it even more interesting in a way.
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Old 2009-12-13, 02:44   Link #1723
KLGChaos
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I believe the ideas in the manga are sound, even if it's not like the one shot. It's just that the execution of the story has been poor so far. There's some really good stuff in there and some really bad stuff as well. For example, we learn a lot about Medaka... And only Medaka as the series progresses, but next to nothing about the other characters outside of some basic personality traits. Characters come and go like it's a revolving door and there's just too much that feels random instead of actually funny. First they talk about Judo somewhat realistically and the next thing you know, buildings are being pulled down. I know that's part of being abnormal, but I feel a lot of inconsistency from the manga. It's trying to mix too much together, some of which seems diametrically opposed to each other. You can't have a realistic Judo match in one chapter and then a DBZ style fight in the next. It just feels weird. Some stuff works, some doesn't. It's almost as if Nishio is just tossing in whatever he can and is hoping it sticks. It's probably his attempt at satirizing the genre, which is fine, but satire really requires a deft touch to be successful, but it feels more like NisiOisiN is slamming it over our heads instead.

That's why the manga, though it has flashes of brilliance, has such a split audience.

I'd also like to see less Medaka and more of the other characters. She's nit a horrible character, but she just eats up way too much of the manga and I think it's hurting it. I've noticed that whenever the manga focus solely on her, it tends to drop to the bottom and does better on the less Medaka heavy chapters. I think people just got bored with the same old "Problem arises > Medaka makes a big speech > Medaka solves problem herself > repeat."
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Old 2009-12-13, 03:08   Link #1724
Nosauz
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Stating that your flawed but acting pretentiously at all times does not make you a GOOD character. It makes you a character who is trying so hard to mask it's mary sueness yet still being a mary sue. As the saying goes, a wolf in sheeps clothing is still a fucking damn wolf. Although there's some add embellishment, Medaka really doesn't act like a person who questions her own motives, not only is she supremely confident in herself, the reader is LEAD to believe that she is perfect although she states that she is not perfect. Again it's not about what is said it is all about what is actually shown. And there really aren't any real points in the manga of what I have read that really show any depth to Medaka's character.
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Old 2009-12-13, 03:31   Link #1725
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Let me remind you that this is already a third Nisio's manga project. The first two were unsuccessful, as the one-shots never got serialized and remained just one-shots, so even a good name is not all that powerful or else both of the earlier one-shots would have been turned into series as well.
Some one shots are never meant to be serialized in the first place.. they are true one shots... the one shot in WSJ he did with Takeshi Obata the artist of Hikaru no Go and Death Note could've been stopped either because of lack of interest or that Takeshi Obata was going to release Bakuman later that year and never intended to make it a serialized series.
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Old 2009-12-13, 03:51   Link #1726
KLGChaos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Stating that your flawed but acting pretentiously at all times does not make you a GOOD character. It makes you a character who is trying so hard to mask it's mary sueness yet still being a mary sue. As the saying goes, a wolf in sheeps clothing is still a fucking damn wolf. Although there's some add embellishment, Medaka really doesn't act like a person who questions her own motives, not only is she supremely confident in herself, the reader is LEAD to believe that she is perfect although she states that she is not perfect. Again it's not about what is said it is all about what is actually shown. And there really aren't any real points in the manga of what I have read that really show any depth to Medaka's character.
I'll have to agree with Jetstorm that Medaka is a flawed character, however that doesn't make her a likeable character to me. All her flaws are personality flaws-- she's arrogant, a tyrant and she's a hypocrite (the latter of which she's joyfully agreed with). She has no common sense and despite saying that she lives to help others, she really just wants them to become what she THINKS is right (a perfect example is Kikaijima, who Medaka was going to forcefully reform until she found out the reasons behind the greed). I personally can't stand people who force their views on others, so if I met someone like Medaka in real life, I'd probably tell them to gtfo if she tried. Combine these issues with her "I love everyone and want to help them" attitude and her "modes" and she comes off as very fake.

That's one if my biggest issues with Medaka. All those massive personality flaws, yet everyone seems to love her, which is unrealistic. Also, between her personality, the fact that we never know what she's thinking, and her being completely abnormal, it's impossible to relate to her as she doesn't even feel human. I've barely seen anything resembling emotion from her (another flaw) and for someone who has so much focus on her, the fact that we can't relate to her is a turn off to many readers, myself included.

Physically, she's a Mary Sue, but there's quite a few of those in the manga (the 13 for example). That was fine when the manga was a regular school life manga, when it was used for comedy puposes and not to solve
everything, but now that's it dipped in battle territory, it hurts the character because it makes things boring.
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Old 2009-12-13, 03:58   Link #1727
Nosauz
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Look Mary Sue is a terrible way to characterize a character, it just shows the author's ineptness to make the reader feel real emotion toward her character. There is no depth there is no subtlety, there is no dynamic of humanity, it's just wish fulfillment and there are many times when Medaka could be portrayed as human in some plausible sense but unfortunately she's never given a chance. What's even more frustrating is that the author came up with characters like Araragi, Hitagi, Hakijuchi, who are all characters that have that humanity to them even though there in a completely outlandish world. The point is his characters don't live up to their potential and continue to just say they are not simple tropes when infact they are the embodiements of the tropes they state they aren't. Either this pure genius on the writer, or this is a case of so bad it's worse. Either way Medaka's nature/character are the least appealing parts about the manga, I find the kendo club flunkies more interesting, I think only reason I find medaka not completely boring is because she's willing to pantsu flash at pretty much any oppurtunity, but then again I prefer Toraburu's fan service far more than medaka. The point is it's a mary sue, even though the author is canon, I mean all her flaws just make this manga predictable and very bland.
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Old 2009-12-13, 05:54   Link #1728
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Some one shots are never meant to be serialized in the first place.. they are true one shots... the one shot in WSJ he did with Takeshi Obata the artist of Hikaru no Go and Death Note could've been stopped either because of lack of interest or that Takeshi Obata was going to release Bakuman later that year and never intended to make it a serialized series.
True, but the rumours tell that Takeshi Obata did intend to get serialized with Nishio at that time, but he had a second, solo, idea if the project did not work.

I am not sure if the first manga was intended as one-shot or not, just that reviews it got were not particularly good.

Personally I think Nishio wanted to get serialized since the very beginning but his first two one-shots failed to attract the interest while Medaka Box did manage to do that, even if it later changed the genre that got it serialized quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Jetstorm View Post
Medaka Box can not be compared to Hatsukoi Limited. Hatsukoi ran at a time period where there were still a lot of Jump's old guard around (Neuro, ES21, TLR) that were all relatively successful(Not One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Reborn, and Gintama level) and left less room for new series to cushion it. DGM moving to Jump SQ also meant more space for other series to move in.
Can you read a whole post for Christs sake before you go pages of explaining and argue in the argument that was never there in the first case?

I am not comparing Medaka and Hatsukoi as manga, I am just using Hatsukoi as an example that 30 chapter is not necessarily a shounen 'infant' stage. Read a whole post, or is too much to ask for?

@Nosauz

One-shots are not bad, there are some great ones out there, its just that not all authors cannot generate original ideas that fast and if most of projects are one-shots, he has to generate ideas faster than serialized author does (who can take the breaks by extending the arcs f.e.) - and despite what one may thing, our imagination is not limitless in a sense that it gets hard to generate great original ideas all the time. Serialization in a way helps you to take a break.

Even Nishio, on novels front, did not look particularly inspiring with his latest novel series (that is often said to be his worse so far). It still did pretty good, but it is more because of his name really rather than the novel itself being great. In fact if this series would be his debut novels I suspect many would have shrugged him off as mediocre writer.

So yeah, the one-shots are not bad but they do put a stress on the author if he/she wants to be making original ideas.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2009-12-13 at 06:17.
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Old 2009-12-13, 12:18   Link #1729
aahhsin
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The entire point of her IS her Mary Sue character. She's basically perfect in every way and at the same time it's her downfall.

It sounds like most of you who hate her wants her to have a 10 chapter backstory about how her father died, she was molested by her brother, her mother has AIDs, she was an orphan afterward, raped by her 4 best friends, and in the end managed to preserve and trained herself to become a ultra powerful human being.
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Old 2009-12-13, 13:08   Link #1730
KLGChaos
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Originally Posted by aahhsin View Post
The entire point of her IS her Mary Sue character. She's basically perfect in every way and at the same time it's her downfall.

It sounds like most of you who hate her wants her to have a 10 chapter backstory about how her father died, she was molested by her brother, her mother has AIDs, she was an orphan afterward, raped by her 4 best friends, and in the end managed to preserve and trained herself to become a ultra powerful human being.
Not really. But her Mary Sueness has yet to be her downfall. The only way it can be her downfall is if it makes people hate her because she's so perfect (which is the case in real life from many people who find her boring), but in the manga everyone loves her for it.

While it's true that the manga may not be the most horrible thing in the world and it's tankoban sales are decent, it wouldn't be so low in the rankings every week (back in the bottom five again this week) if people actually cared for it. Most people are probably turned off by Medaka and the lack of any development for most of the characters.
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Old 2009-12-13, 13:29   Link #1731
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by aahhsin View Post
The entire point of her IS her Mary Sue character. She's basically perfect in every way and at the same time it's her downfall.

It sounds like most of you who hate her wants her to have a 10 chapter backstory about how her father died, she was molested by her brother, her mother has AIDs, she was an orphan afterward, raped by her 4 best friends, and in the end managed to preserve and trained herself to become a ultra powerful human being.
Clearly that's what makes a character good and not a mary sue

/sarcasm
if you didn't get that. Anyway it's because mary sue's are UNBELIEVABLE, you just can't connect to them because they are the embodiement of outlandish extremes of an author trying to live vicariously through a character. It's because they don't posses human qualities. Their intro to a scene suddenly gravitates all the action toward them when in fact the world doesn't work that way. The fact is that she is just annoying to consider herself supreme to those that aren't her, she's detached from the people she tries to help which is why it's peculiar to relate to her "kindness" or her "goals"
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Old 2009-12-13, 15:55   Link #1732
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Medaka is a God Mode Sue in a manga full of God Mode Sues. She clearly realized she wasn't the best around upon meeting the 13 party so she went to train more. Last time I checked, that qualifies as an action and not just a statement. Even now, she hasn't exactly had the easiest time with someone on her level. Not to mention there are people still sticking to their beliefs even after meeting Medaka. (Shiranui and Unzen)

Medaka even WANTS someone to oppose her as her vice-president because once again she does not always believe she is right and feels opposition can be a good thing. Asking Shiranui and Unzen to fill the vacancy is an action following a statement as well. This seriously is not that hard. -____-

Also last time I checked, being worried about loneliness and protecting your friends were human qualities. As well as a number of other things Medaka has shown and has been stated about her throughout the series.

Medaka is not the perfect or the most lovable character but people don't seem to care to give her any credit at all for the human aspects she shows...which I thought was what half of what people keep crying about. Her not showing human qualities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Can you read a whole post for Christs sake before you go pages of explaining and argue in the argument that was never there in the first case?

I am not comparing Medaka and Hatsukoi as manga, I am just using Hatsukoi as an example that 30 chapter is not necessarily a shounen 'infant' stage. Read a whole post, or is too much to ask for?
You brought up Hatsukoi as a reason for it being canceled and claiming it isn't an infant state. On the contrary, I'd say it is as most weekly shounen manga only start getting to their main plots around the 40-50 chapter mark. Some even later then that. The ones that survive anyway. Most things before that barrier are the episodic and introduction chapters. So yes, I'd say Hatsukoi was still in an infant stage and Kawashita had more planned for her series before the cancellation.

I brought up reasons why the atmosphere of Jump is different now compared to when Hatsukoi ran. Regardless of Medaka being in an infant state or not, it doesn't matter as the space in Jump and room to dodge cancellation is higher. That is my only reason for going as in-depth as I did which you probably missed.

I read your post and saw what you were getting at (Cancellation for early shounen) which was the reason for what I posted. (evidence for it being less likely for a number of reasons)
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Old 2009-12-13, 17:26   Link #1733
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstorm View Post
You brought up Hatsukoi as a reason for it being canceled and claiming it isn't an infant state. On the contrary, I'd say it is as most weekly shounen manga only start getting to their main plots around the 40-50 chapter mark. Some even later then that. The ones that survive anyway. Most things before that barrier are the episodic and introduction chapters. So yes, I'd say Hatsukoi was still in an infant stage and Kawashita had more planned for her series before the cancellation
If the manga ends with ch 30 then there is no point of saying it is in infant state because it is over - it reached its full potential already. Basta, finish, kaput, finito. It cannot go only longer - its full growth is what it is.

I do not care if it was planned to grow for 100 or 5000000 chapters, if it ends with ch 30 thats it's 'adulthood' already.

So saying that for shounen 30 chapters is an infant stage is way too optimistic. Hatsukoi is not the only shounen who ended prematurely. And I do not care about potential or plans, I am talking about facts and facts show that 30 chapters is already a solid age.
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Old 2009-12-13, 17:48   Link #1734
DJ Trouble
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love, I don't even want none of the above, I want to p... *coughs*

Anyway I doubt this ever gets an anime.. and if gets one before Zaregoto I think several Nisio fans are going to cry.. lol aint that right stuopidget?
Let 'em cry. This is totally gettin an anime. The fanbase will steadily increase as the manga goes on. Haters will cool off a bit, maybe, probably not. And then BAM! We get an anime! And the fanbase triples, allowing even more haters to hate on this and for me to watch this animated.

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If the manga ends with ch 30 then there is no point of saying it is in infant state because it is over - it reached its full potential already. Basta, finish, kaput, finito. It cannot go only longer - its full growth is what it is.

I do not care if it was planned to grow for 100 or 5000000 chapters, if it ends with ch 30 thats it's 'adulthood' already.

So saying that for shounen 30 chapters is an infant stage is way too optimistic. Hatsukoi is not the only shounen who ended prematurely. And I do not care about potential or plans, I am talking about facts and facts show that 30 chapters is already a solid age.
Things die in their infancy all the time. Take infants, for example.

An end does not equate to full potentail or "adulthood", it simply means it's not continuing any longer. A key trait of shounen series is that they're typically expected to last for a few years before ending, if they're successful. When a series only reaches 30 chapters out of a typical 400, 300, 200, or even 100 chapters, then it is at a beginning level (or in its infancy if you prefer).

Anyway, I hope this one day makes it into the Big 3 after naruto/bleach end so all you haters can have plenty to hate on. xD And so I can get my never-ending Medaka anime. >.>
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Old 2009-12-13, 18:09   Link #1735
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It's obvious that the problem isn't Medaka, it's Zenkichi and the supporting cast. Medaka isn't the greatest character but there isn't a strong supporting cast to have the readers to feel comfortable. Not only that but we know quite a lot about Medaka not so much about the supporting class.
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Old 2009-12-13, 19:01   Link #1736
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Yeah the Mary Sue aspect really does make it hard to connect with what's going on. It's a lot like Reborn in the early chapters actually, where he was established as being essentially impossibly perfect and far more powerful than even his other counterparts. Anytime he was on the scene there was never a sense of danger. With Medaka there isn't even the question of how she'll pull it off, she's just untouchable.
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Old 2009-12-13, 20:57   Link #1737
Rejuvenation
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
If the manga ends with ch 30 then there is no point of saying it is in infant state because it is over - it reached its full potential already. Basta, finish, kaput, finito. It cannot go only longer - its full growth is what it is.

I do not care if it was planned to grow for 100 or 5000000 chapters, if it ends with ch 30 thats it's 'adulthood' already.

So saying that for shounen 30 chapters is an infant stage is way too optimistic. Hatsukoi is not the only shounen who ended prematurely. And I do not care about potential or plans, I am talking about facts and facts show that 30 chapters is already a solid age.
Yet here we are passed chapter 30 and Medaka Box is still fighting. Not only that but whether you acknowledge it or not it still has other series doing worse than it. Funny that, almost like other examples I mentioned that are similar to it yet kept clawing their way out.

I'm aware some manga don't make it to several hundred chapter length. The point is that when you kill an infant it is still an infant at the time of death. You seem to not understand that manga ending at low chapter counts like 30 does not in anyway make them "complete" or at "adulthood". The potential wasn't reached because it was cut short. Meaning that potential was just unused.

If half of a story's plot lines aren't resolved because it was pushed to end early it sure as hell isn't complete nor reached its adulthood.

You can keep on screaming the sky is falling all you like but fact of the matter is it hasn't and it doesn't appear to be falling in recent chapters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amegashita View Post
It's obvious that the problem isn't Medaka, it's Zenkichi and the supporting cast. Medaka isn't the greatest character but there isn't a strong supporting cast to have the readers to feel comfortable. Not only that but we know quite a lot about Medaka not so much about the supporting class.
Finally, a legitimate criticism that isn't phrased in a way that makes it a wall banger. -____-

Agreed that we could know more about other characters and that they could do more but I believe that Nishio has gotten better with this post Unzen.

Since the start of the Flask Plan arc we have had Nabeshima saving Medaka and teaching her a good lesson, Maguro training her and also telling her not to neglect herself, Akune and Kikaijima came and said they are not going to be left out of this despite Medaka trying to do so.

Kikaijima's abilities helped Medaka figure out the way through the labyrinth and before that Akune had to wake Zenkichi up after he was panicking over the door of rejection.

Honestly, if things like this happen with higher frequency and we do get more of the cast stepping up it will be a good thing. Whether people love her or hate her, most agree that one character can not normally carry a story all by herself. While Medaka is indeed the focus there is still room for other characters to do more without taking anything away from her.
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Old 2009-12-13, 22:29   Link #1738
Wrath88
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Hmm... what was that description about Zenkichi being a Normal? He does have something to him, maybe Medaka rubbed off on him or something?

Agreed on the supporting characters requiring more development.
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Old 2009-12-13, 23:05   Link #1739
Xion Valkyrie
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Even though the supporting characters have been given a bit more use in the latest chapters, I still feel it's really tacked on. I mean, so far there really isn't anything that'd make me feel like Medaka couldn't easily handle the entire thing by herself. The author is taking note that the audience wants the student council to be of more use, but Medaka is already so powerful and the council members so weak in comparison that it's very hard to write material that'd make them seem useful without breaking continuity.

That's really the problem with Medaka as a character. Even though she has these "flaws", there's really no consequence to her having them. A better development would have been if the student council was unable to prevent her from killing Unzen. That'd have set up a perfect scenario for character development for both Medaka and the entire student council. However, in typical shounen fashion they stopped her at the last minute, even though there's really no way they could have stopped her with her berserk strength.

Basically, there needs to be some sort of consequence for Medaka's mistakes, otherwise, there's no tension to the story at all.
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Old 2009-12-14, 04:07   Link #1740
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Trouble View Post
Things die in their infancy all the time. Take infants, for example.

An end does not equate to full potentail or "adulthood", it simply means it's not continuing any longer. A key trait of shounen series is that they're typically expected to last for a few years before ending, if they're successful. When a series only reaches 30 chapters out of a typical 400, 300, 200, or even 100 chapters, then it is at a beginning level (or in its infancy if you prefer).
If infant is dead then thats what its adulthood was. Death is the final line, you cannot have more potential than it.

Thats why dead or cut is the potential fulfilled since you do not have more 'growth' than this. But it is obvious that you believe that death does not matter to the potential and potential is something that escapes death (or being cut if we talk about manga) boundaries. Well good luck to you, but for me the death/cut is the final stop and the full potential because thats where it ends all-together.

Quote:
Anyway, I hope this one day makes it into the Big 3 after naruto/bleach end so all you haters can have plenty to hate on. xD And so I can get my never-ending Medaka anime. >.>
Gee, manga does not suck in sells (but isnt something very great either) and is always in the last five in ratings and you already start dreaming about Big Three?

It is good to be optimistic, but too big amount of that can make people look like fools.
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