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Old 2009-12-11, 18:18   Link #101
Slayerx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetic Justice View Post
Plus if you remember back to Rayleigh vs Kizaru, Rayleigh's kick solidified Kizaru's leg.
A dang you're right... i forget that kizaru tried to kick zoro, and thought Rayleigh kicked the sword...

though i guess it could be more like C.A. said... a clash of intentions... of which the more power the attacker has over the defender the more damage and the more solid they remain... So while aokiji still amanaged to break apart, he still took damage because their was enough haki in the attack

i think the best part about all this though is knowing that haki is NOT an end all be all for logias and devil fruit... especially in the case of blackbeard... Haki being able to deal such damage lowered the value of Blackbeard's powers, but knowing that devil fruit users can use haki to defend themselves from haki, this brings bakc the value of blackbeards powers... while haki can reduce the defensive properties of devil fruit, it can be defended against, where as Blackbeards powers are more absolute
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Old 2009-12-11, 19:16   Link #102
paradox13
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Quote:
I think Aokiji just completely avoided the attack by making hole on his chest before attack reached him.
I think this is the most probable.
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Old 2009-12-11, 19:18   Link #103
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by MihawkXGP View Post
He temp Ko'ed Moria with 1 powerful hit.
We didn't see anything subsequent to the fierce punch Jimbei gave Moria, so it's not safe to say Moria was temporarily knocked out.
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Old 2009-12-11, 19:19   Link #104
marvelB
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Actually, what I said in my last post about a Logia's ambition matching their opponent's was meant to be something along the lines of what C.A. said about the clash of wills/intention, but it seems I didn't articulate myself well enough....



Anyway, I already said in the past that I didn't believe Haki negates DF powers. Rather, I see it as more as a force that "ignores" a fruit ability in order to hit the user of said ability. For instance, if Whitebeard attacks Aokiji with the full intent to "hit a Logia", he'll hit Aokiji regardless of his Logia defenses. But yet we saw that Aokiji was able to avoid getting damaged by Whitebeard's spear. While I don't disagree with the notion that Aokiji was able to dodge due to his strong intentions clashing with Whitebeard's, I also now believe that Whitebeard's declining health plus his stab wound may have been a factor in the admiral gaining an opportunity to avoid getting shishkabobbed by the spear, as well.....
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Old 2009-12-11, 19:45   Link #105
Eisdrache
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Sorry for incoming faggottry but THE CHAINCHOMPS GUY ACTUALLY BITES KIZARU HELL YES

God he is so awesome.
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Old 2009-12-11, 21:52   Link #106
lonewolf777
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I'm still waiting/looking forward to Luffy's Haki coming into play soon in this arc. I thought it did when the two Marines who were about to strike Ace were felled, only to see that it was Croc's attack..... but I think Luffy's Haki will somehow play a role and make a big difference in a key portion of this arc. I'm certainly eager...
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Old 2009-12-11, 23:28   Link #107
grey_1960
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Chapter 567
This wasn’t a bad chapter. It is about time Vice Admiral Garp gets in the fight. A least this way he will not have to watch Ace’s execution. I wonder who is stronger Diamond Jozu or Garp when it comes to strength? I can't wait to see the outcome of White Beard vs. Admiral Akainu.

Diamond Jozu’s Mysteries
How the hell is Diamond Jozu making these logia users bleed? My first answer is haki but could his abilities also be the case? In Chapter 560 page14-15 he uses his left arm but its covered with his diamond ability and he punches Croc. In Chapter 567 page 9 its the same, left arm and its covered in diamond only he is punching Admiral Akoiji.

Admiral Kizaru’s words of wisdom
On chapter 567 pages 13 and 14 Admiral Kizaru beats the shit out of Luffy and tells him “Straw Hat Luffy... just having guts isn’t enough. If you’re not strong enough, then you can’t save something no matter how hard you try.” On page 15 Admiral Kizaru insults White Beard by saying “Who’d of thought a man as great as yourself would send trash as reckless as that in right away.” Admiral Kizaru’s words may not be inspiring to Luffy but they are the truth. In this whole battle to save Ace Luffy has gotten a free ride to the top of the mountain. The fact is if he didn’t have help from powerhouses in this battle he would have been sidelined like Buggy long ago. I hope chapter 567 will be the last time Luffy will appear in this battle. Luffy as the new world to adventure and the the Straw hat Crew to reunite. It is time Oda let the big boys play out the rest of the battle.

Just a thought
You know what would be cool. If Ace had the keys to the cuffs from the beginning of the battle. There are so many ways Ace could have gotten the key’s and that not including the prison visits by Vice Admiral Garp or Hancock. Then the question would be who gave him the key? Also why didn't he get out earlier when he had the chance? Then just has they are about to kill Ace the blade goes through him but it doesn’t kill him because he is logia of course. Then Ace gets up and joins the battle and the rest is history. I make this mention because I really would like to see Ace fight in this battle as well. I consider him a very good fighter. Also the Marines have Kizaru, Akoiji, and Akainu. White Beard would have Diamond Jozu, Marko, and Ace.

Last edited by grey_1960; 2009-12-12 at 00:11. Reason: Forgot to add a thought
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Old 2009-12-12, 04:59   Link #108
Tenryuken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I am not convinced that the attack was Haki-based.
And why won't WB use an Haki based attack on Aokiji?
Especially since it would've allowed him to one-shot the Admiral and having one powerfull enemy less to fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetic Justice View Post
^^Interesting theory but wb's nakama's talked like they knew how the haki attacks worked.
Lot's of people on WB's side know how it works, so I pretty sure Haki was used.

Quote:
Plus if you remember back to Rayleigh vs Kizaru, Rayleigh's kick solidified Kizaru's leg.
Hancock also kicked Smoker.
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Old 2009-12-12, 06:51   Link #109
margafred
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Interesting discussion happening here,especially about how Aokiji didn't die or get injured after being stabbed by WB's Haki-enchanted spear.While i think that Aokiji avoided the stab by making a hole on his body which made the spear passed through his body is an appropriate reason as to why Aokiji didn't get hurt,but i also won't deny that Aokiji himself might actually countered the attack using his ice power,which was not shown clearly on ch567.

I based my conclusion on "Aokiji countered the Haki'ed attack himself using his body" from how Akainu stopped the same Haki'ed attack from WB with just his leg which was enchanted with his DF power.If Haki is truly superior than Logia's formless body,then surely Akainu's leg will be shattered completely when he stopped WB's spear attack,and at the same time,get injured by it.But still he is in good shape and fine condition,not on his face shown any sign of him being injured or pain.

The idea that Haki has always been superior against Logia's formless body started when Rayleigh kicked Kizaru's leg and even leave a scar on his face using his sword,which made everyone think that Haki is unstoppable and Logia user will always get hit and injured if any form of Haki'ed attack touch their formless body.Up until now there is no sign anywhere showing that Logia user is able to avoid injury when making a contact with a Haki based attack.So it could be said that ch567 actually shows for the first time how Logia user countered a Haki'ed attack without getting injured.

From how Akainu stopped WB's Haki'ed attack and how Aokiji managed to survive WB's Haki'ed spear stab,i concluded that just like how Zoan has three type of transformation phase,Logia too has a 3 types of transformation phase.

Quote:
First phase - Normal body
A normal body without being enchanted with the Logia properties.Basically any normal attack can hit the Logia user and injure them without the need of any special power.Even a slash from a sharp weapon can leave a scar or wound on the Logia user.First phase was shown for the first time on Alabasta arc when Smoker was hit from back by Luffy when Smoker was trying to capture Ace inside a restaurant.

Second phase - Formless body (Normal body which is enchanted with the properties of the Logia power itself)
The most common form used by any prepared Logia user.This form allowed them to be completely immune to any physical attacks while maintaining their body form.While they cannot be damage by any physical attack,they however still retain their physical body form,or to make things easier to say,this form is 50% logia + 50% normal body.As such only non physical attack such as magic or Haki based attack can bypass the 2nd form.Special cases is that,if the weaknesses of the Logia element itself is used against them,like Luffy using water enchanted physical attack on Crocodile,or Luffy's rubber property on Eneru's lightning body.

Third phase - Completely element with no actual physic form
Becoming a completely Logia,or transforming the Logia user itself into the the element of the Logia itself.While mental and conciousness are still maintained,the Logia user however loose their physical form.They don't have the property of a human anymore,they have turn into a complete elemental form.While in this form,no attack or power that can hit or damage them.However special case for this is that,if the Logia element's weakness is used against them,for example Luffy's rubber property on Eneru's final form.So far there are very few occasions where the Logia user itself turned their body into a 3rd phase form completely (as in whole body transformation).Mostly they just changed a part of their body into a 3rd phase while maintaining their other body parts in 2nd phase.For example,Crocodile turning his lower body part into a complete sand while his upper body part in 2nd phase form,or Akainu turned his arm into a magma while maintaining his body in 2nd phase form.
And about Haki..

Quote:
Haki from my understanding should work like this : Haki itself affect a person,as in their mind,body and soul.Its a power that hit and affect a person's body,even if the body itself is in different form.As long as there is a human form/substance on the formless body itself,then Haki should be able to affect it.Even if the Logia user is 99% element + 1% human,Haki would still be able to injure the Logia user by affecting the 1% side.However if the user turned itself into a complete 100% element,then Haki will not be able to damage the user.
With the above explanations as a base,it makes things easier on how Haki can actually be countered using the 3rd phase of Logia.If Aokiji managed to turn a part of his body into a complete ice and Akainu turned his feet into a complete magma,then it explained clearly how they both actually managed to avoid injury from WB's haki'ed attack.It is possible to avoid injury from Haki based attack by turning a part of a body into a 100% element,in which the case of Aokiji,he turned his waist (around the ribs side) into a 100% ice which breaks like a normal ice without affecting Aokiji's other body parts.Same case with Akainu where he turned his feet into 100% magma,in which Haki has no effect on it.And taking the first case of Haki vs Logia which was Rayleigh vs Kizaru,if Kizaru actually turned his body into 100% light,which basically make himself into a human laser that melts anything that it touch,Rayleigh might actually be the one to get injured by it.

Mostly turning a part of a body into 100% logia/elemental is a mean to attack other people,usually in a form of projectile or forming the said part into a some kind of weapon.But at the same time it can also be use as a counter to avoid getting injured by Haki based attack.Admiral level officer should know about the existence of Haki,and in marines,they should have bunch of people with the ability to use Haki,which Logia user officers can use to train themselves.So it shouldn't be strange for any of the Admirals to fight a Haki users without getting injured,because the Admiral already knew how to counter it.

However just like Logia,i think that Haki too may have a different type of levels,which have different kind of effects when used on Logia user.Never been stated anywhere on the manga about WB's level of Haki,however it has been hinted that Haoshoku Haki might be the highest level of Haki among all types of Haki.Not quite sure if WB's Haki is of the same type,but i'm guessing that it isn't.Not quite sure too if Hancock owned the same Haki though she did mention about herself owning Haoushoku Haki..but i guess it was just a boast that they spread among the Kuja warriors to get their attention.WB might have a powerful Haki,but i think its just about the amount of Haki he has,while Haoushoku Haki is a superior,highest quality type of Haki,and just having a small amount of it is equal to like having a Haki amount like WB.



p/s : Just read some posts from AP forums about ch567...they might actually be true about the aura surrounding WB's weapon tip was actually a form of his earthquake power,even Akainu commented about that attack (WB's attack with his weapon) being able to crush the whole marine island,which is something that i believe even a Haki of WB's caliber couldn't do,except his quake power.Quite contradicting from what i posted above...however i guess i just stick myself to the point i made above for now,until Oda himself release a 1001 Haki for dummies guide book lol.
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Last edited by margafred; 2009-12-12 at 08:24.
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Old 2009-12-12, 08:43   Link #110
aohige
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Originally Posted by Poetic Justice View Post
^^Interesting theory but wb's nakama's talked like they knew how the haki attacks worked.

Plus if you remember back to Rayleigh vs Kizaru, Rayleigh's kick solidified Kizaru's leg.
Well, it could be as simple as the intention of the person.
You punch someone with the intention of hurting him, you hurt him.
You kick someone with the intention of stoping his kick, you stop him.
You want to know the opponent next move, then you know it.
You have sex with the intention of impregnating the girl, one hit bullseye.

Some people might be thinking too hard about the technicality of this, but I think haki is, as the name suggest, simply a power of will.
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Old 2009-12-12, 09:23   Link #111
SMASHERJACKSON
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i think wb couldnt hit aoikiji simply due to lack of speed due to his condition, while i dont feel the admirals to be able to win 1vs1 vs WB i do expect them at least block or get an attack or two in, otherwise would be waaaaay over rated.
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Old 2009-12-12, 09:26   Link #112
Poetic Justice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Well, it could be as simple as the intention of the person.
You punch someone with the intention of hurting him, you hurt him.
You kick someone with the intention of stoping his kick, you stop him.
You want to know the opponent next move, then you know it.

Some people might be thinking too hard about the technicality of this, but I think haki is, as the name suggest, simply a power of will.
Nice hidden text there.
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Old 2009-12-12, 14:04   Link #113
grey_1960
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I think White Beard missed Akoiji
As some of the earlier post have mentioned about Akoiji dodging the attack. In chapter 567 on page 9 Whitebeard is shown stabbing Admiral Akoiji. But to me it looks like whitebeard missed. This different level of logia power sounds like were looking to much into the issue of Logia powers. Can logia advance there powers yes but i think it there is a certain extent. The picture on chapter 567 page 9 doesn't show the weapon forcing it way through the body. It looks like Akoiji made a whole just in time to dodge the weapon. Becasue you can see mist forming from his body and its looks like a circuler instead of shards of ice coming off though force. Second Kizaru vs. Rayleigh was unexpected fight. Admiral Kizaru said it himself that he was thinking this was going to be easy and he didn't expect Rayleigh. He was about to finish Zoro off when Silver Rayleigh directed his shots unexpectedly. Second time Admiral Kizaru tried to stop Zoro, Usopp, and Brooks from escaping with his abilities. Silver Rayleigh cut him off. Now Diamond Jozu nailed Admiral Akoiji. Then you have Diamond Jozu getting Croc. To me it sounds like if the logia users are expecting the attack they are prepared but if they are caught off guard like Kizaru was in the Sabaody Arc or Admiral Akoiji in this big battle they take damage. I don't think becoming a better logia user makes you imune to Haki at all, it just makes you harder to kill. There is no adapting to the Haki except being prepared for its. Its like fighting one person and then a second person comes in unexpectedly and punches you. You weren't prepared for that so you took the hit. Same goes for the Logia. There is only so many different situtations you can deal with at once.

Last edited by grey_1960; 2009-12-12 at 14:19.
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Old 2009-12-12, 15:14   Link #114
Vree
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'Cmon Grey...There is no way Ace would have stayed put if he had a means to escape when this whole battle is about him. If he let Oars get stabbed like that, that would...It's just not gonna happen.

I was sorta glad to see Luffy punched down too...I mean, it was a huge luxury that everyone allowed him this moment to shine anyway, it'd have been even more outrageous if he got through the admirals too.
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Old 2009-12-12, 15:51   Link #115
grey_1960
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Vree your right. But i just want to see Ace in action in this battle really bad. i would like to see how he fairs with the top marines.
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Old 2009-12-14, 11:31   Link #116
Vree
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Well I would be surprised if he didn't get a chance to join the fray before all of this is over.
(And if Impel Down and Robin are to compare he will too.)

But yknow what, VERY interesting point. Can Ace NOT go after Blackbeard after this is all over? BB will either have to reappear at the end of this current fight, or Ace will have to join Luffy & co. and seek him out.
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Old 2009-12-14, 14:21   Link #117
DJ Trouble
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Originally Posted by Vree View Post
Well I would be surprised if he didn't get a chance to join the fray before all of this is over.
(And if Impel Down and Robin are to compare he will too.)

But yknow what, VERY interesting point. Can Ace NOT go after Blackbeard after this is all over? BB will either have to reappear at the end of this current fight, or Ace will have to join Luffy & co. and seek him out.
No, and lolno.

Ace is being set up to take Whitebeard's place. Once this is all over, he'll probably be given command of most/all of Whitebeard's crew and will continue the legacy of the . . . whatever WB's crew is called. Basically, he'll be actively pursuing the title of Pirate King. He can still go after Blackbeard like this, but that doesn't mean Bleackbeard has to appear in this battle. And, there's no way Ace is joining Luffy's crew. It's been stated many times by both Luffy and Ace that Ace has his own adventure, which means not being a part of Luffy's.

Last edited by DJ Trouble; 2009-12-14 at 14:25. Reason: submit =/= preview
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Old 2009-12-14, 15:32   Link #118
Vree
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Originally Posted by DJ Trouble View Post
Ace is being set up to take Whitebeard's place.
lolsuuuuure.

Even if it happens, it will be rather stupid. I won't say it won't, with Marco the Phoenix Zoan and such but yeah. It'd suck monkey balls.
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Old 2009-12-14, 16:49   Link #119
Illieas
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Originally Posted by Vree View Post
lolsuuuuure.

Even if it happens, it will be rather stupid. I won't say it won't, with Marco the Phoenix Zoan and such but yeah. It'd suck monkey balls.
yes and no. it was mentioned in the manga that whitebeard wanted ace to be his successor or new pirate king, however this was spoken by sengoku.
who could have been using the squado plot of making it seem that whitebeard cared more about ace than any of his other sons.
as such it could be entirely untrue but we do not know as sengoku isn't a reliable narrator.
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Old 2009-12-14, 21:32   Link #120
Hisoka??
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I'm suspecting Jozu's "diamond" DF is some special anti-logia fruit or mechanism.

Doesn't make sense otherwise that he can hurt all these logias so easily.
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