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Old 2009-12-13, 18:05   Link #441
Aimless
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Irene didn't say "10%." She said (assuming the translation is accurate, which may not be a god assumption) "using just enough youma power to make her eyes change color.". Big difference, considering that "just enough youma power to make her eyes change color" is anything from 10-30%.

Actually, now that I think on it, I remember Cyclone already mentioning something about that section being poorly translated, so even this should be taken with a grain of salt.

You are all trying to infer way too much on the basis of basically no evidence, and as a result this entire discussion has gotten absurd. Enough with the arithmetic; there are so many flaws in that argument as to make it meaningless; you've spent pages and pages saying nothing at all.
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Old 2009-12-14, 02:53   Link #442
Kikaifan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
to me...

"just enough" means the minimum of 10% out of the 10-29% range.

but this is merely my understanding of wordage of "just enough"
Yes, I've always read the 'just' there as meaning she was impressed that Teresa didn't need to use enough to distort the face etc., not that Irene was sufficiently sensitive to know the exact %.
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Old 2009-12-14, 03:59   Link #443
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I think I have no idea. Could be 10%, could be 29%, could be anywhere in between. I prefer high-end because I think Priscilla was meant to be a credible future threat to Teresa, but no matter which end of the range she was at she still beat her using a lot less power so it doesn't matter a huge amount.

I was trying to say that the grammar is ambiguous. The 'just' could be referring to Teresa's position on the eye-changing range specifically or her position on the entire range.

This is a case where looking at the original Japanese might be useful.
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Old 2009-12-14, 10:32   Link #444
Vantek
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If the translation "just enough for the eyes to change colour" was correct, then I would take it either 10% or only a little past it (10-13%).

Of course, that's a minor detail which does not change my position which stems from Teresa's own behaviour and a dramatic buildup based on Priscilla having the potential to surpass Teresa ^^
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Old 2009-12-14, 22:51   Link #445
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Good to see the battle is still raging . Glad this has it's own thread now so it doesn't hurt feelings where it shouldn't. And now an important point about Teresa vs Priscilla.

I tried to find "just" but it didn't quite translate that way (if I remember correctly). And after all, Teresa is the one who gives us the Youki Scale in the first place. Yagi would not start skewing information about power within a single chapter. His pattern is to wait to change themes in the story, like showing that 1/2 pill can cloak a claymore after they have dropped unconscious. So if Teresa just said 10% is when your eyes change color and in the same chapter Irene said her eyes changed color, then the info sticks in my opinion. Authors have to give information about their story world somehow. But I'm not sure. Rosemary certainly freaks out when Teresa releases a little bit. Are people still saying she was a weakling?

Teresa says Priscilla harbors a monster and she doesn't know if she can beat her next time BEFORE Priscilla has released any youki. Teresa cannot sense Priscilla at this point making her incredibly dangerous. Priscilla could have landed a surprise attack on Teresa had she followed Irene's orders (maybe, we will never know). Irene knew Priscilla was a trump card because she negates Teresa's only known power of Youki sensing. A youki cloak is a dangerous thing which is why the ghosts worked so hard to get them.

After Teresa leaves the slayers alive, Irene realizes their shot at killing Teresa is in the fact that Teresa has grown soft. Had Priscilla not gone berserk they would have regrouped and tried again.

Just because Teresa is incredibly strong does not mean Priscilla could not kill her and I believe Teresa knew that. She did not want to kill the slayers, she wanted to send them a message to give up trying to kill her.

And don't worry. Teresa's power lives in Clare somewhere and it must be realized at some point in the story so we will get a look at it someday .
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Old 2009-12-14, 23:07   Link #446
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And don't worry. Teresa's power lives in Clare somewhere and it must be realized at some point in the story so we will get a look at it someday .
That's if you believe the power is seperate; some see, in Cyclone(I think)'s own words, that Teresa's power is in a "black box", seperate from what Claire has and currently shown. Others see all of it as Claire's power now and what herself is capable of. It is her body after all.
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Old 2009-12-14, 23:45   Link #447
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lol what ability? You mean the youki sensing that is the same as Teresa's? Or her sick ability to awaken limbs that are mysteriously exponentially faster than Rigardo almost as if she had super youki powers hidden away? Possibly Irene's arm which uses both windcutter and quicksword neither of which are Clare's? What ability of Clare's are you referring to? She is good at tricks though, I'll give her that.

And while it may be Clare's body, aren't Raphaela's memories living in it also? If memory can be preserved or even implanted with Youki, wouldn't Clare have some authentic Teresa in her? Irene approached Clare in the first place because she recognized Teresa's youki within her.
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Old 2009-12-14, 23:55   Link #448
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Hey, maybe Clare is powerful BECAUSE others trust her so much that they give her part of their powers eh? She's a master negotiator. Problem solved .
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Old 2009-12-15, 00:03   Link #449
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And while it may be Clare's body, aren't Raphaela's memories living in it also? If memory can be preserved or even implanted with Youki, wouldn't Clare have some authentic Teresa in her? Irene approached Clare in the first place because she recognized Teresa's youki within her.
I only said that's it what some people believe, and I can understand their line of thinking.

I think a middle-ground is possible, but I lean more towards the "black box" idea that everything is seperate; Claire, from Teresa, Irene, and Rafaela. Obviously, in complete seperate sections is silly. All of them have all sort of mixed together into the unique being Claire has become.
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Old 2009-12-15, 03:10   Link #450
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I'm with Shiek on this one. Clare was very weak in the beginning, but has become very strong. So I think the theory of her getting a lot of power from Teresa is out... If most Claymores seem get more power even possibly from a standard yoma. Her youki might have the same "flavour" as Teresa's, and it might be especially well suited for sensing youki, but it's still her own. I think Irene's arm is probably the one thing that did bring some power with it, but there's little indication in the manga of the exact extents. As for Raphaela... I don't even remember what that was about XD

Quote:
I wish Clare never got ... irene's arm
Well the poor protagonist would still be one-armed then Unless she nicked an arm from someone else...

Quote:
She's a master negotiator.
http://bootleg.deviantart.com/art/Cl...tions-89020187
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Old 2009-12-15, 12:24   Link #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantek View Post
(...) So I think the theory of her getting a lot of power from Teresa is out...
I'm with chibamonster and Cyclone on this (shocker). If Teresa wasn't the source of Clare's power Yagi wouldn't waste time on showing how awesome she was and how easily she had defeated Priscilla. Like Cyclone said, if Clare's power was only her own Yagi wouldn't choose Teresa as a source material, random youma would do. And the comment Teresa made ("I may be able to beat her now but next time who knows") was only to make the fight Clare vs. Priscilla unclear.
Personally I'm of the opinion that Irene's arm made Clare weaker. I don't want to repeat myself so if anyone is interested you can read more in the chapter 85 thread. Awakened tried to counter my arguments but he failed by using examples of either defensive warriors or AB (the discussion continued to the next page also).

BTW, I've found one of my earlier posts about Rosemary and Teresa using a leverage. It's a bit different than what I've written recently.

As for the 10-29% thing, gernot cleared things up and confirmed that chibamonster's translation was correct.
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Old 2009-12-15, 13:30   Link #452
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Well, in the end it the mechanisms of how youki and power works are IMO very unclear in the series. I highly assume that Yagi himself doesn't have a very good idea of how it works lol, as long as there are no glaring inconsistencies there's no need for a detailed explanation even for the writer. As I've said before, in my opinion it would even be detrimental to have such a detailed explanation as it would rob us of mystery.

During the storyline Clare's power grows IMMENSELY. Remember, in the beginning she is the weakest claymore who has trouble even with above-average regular youma. So it definitely isn't as simple as "insert flesh of a powerful warrior and you get a powerful warrior". I mean it just isn't.

At best, you could say that Teresa gave Clare a lot of potential - but still enormous effort is required to fully utilise that potential. It is never explained whose flesh other claymores have been infected with, so I can't draw much of a comparison... But I guess you could say if Clare was made using the flesh of say just a random regular yoma, she wouldn't even have potential and no matter how much willpower and dedication and experience she had she would never be strong. However, considering how a claymore who was made using the flesh of one of the most powerful claymore that had ever existed, was initially the weakest of her generation, I have got to think that the person's own strength is far more important than whose flesh she was made with.

Quote:
hey, rigardo did fine with one arm
Do you call getting chopped to pieces "doing fine"? XD
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Old 2009-12-15, 14:50   Link #453
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
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Old 2009-12-15, 16:47   Link #454
Vantek
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well, for thing that made clare go from weak to strong in the very beginning, was the cathedral yoma, awakening, and raki helping her "reverse" her awakening.

this is because:

Clare became a HALF AWAKEN.

before becoming a HA, Clare is weak. (in the first few chapters before rabona cathedral, clare struggles against normal yomas)

after becoming a HA, Clare is strong. (after the rabona cathedral, Clare is suddenly able to take on ABs and killing them with ease, she ends up finding herself just weaker then rank 4 ophelia. that's a huge improvement from where she started. HA is a massive upgrade/evolvement !!!!)
Yes, half-awakening was probably the biggest single improvement. But she kept improving A LOT long after. She didn't kill the first AB with ease, Helen and Deneve almost got killed and Miria had to push herself to her limits. Before meeting Irene, she wasn't just weaker than Ophelia, she was completely helpless against Ophelia who was just playing with her. The awakened Ophelia wasn't very serious either, cheered Clare and wanted to die. Etc.

I agree that Clare right after half-awakening >>> Clare before half awakening, but I insist that Clare now >>>>> Clare right after half-awakening. The other ghosts have improved massively as well, three of them without half-awakening. Which IMO shows that person's own will/dedication/practice is crucial in determining strength (which I think you yourself HK agree?).
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Old 2009-12-15, 17:33   Link #455
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You forgot one component.... Raki

Add Raki to the formula and uber power is guaranteed!
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Old 2009-12-15, 19:30   Link #456
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Yes that should do it ^^
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Old 2009-12-15, 19:34   Link #457
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If Clare does have any power that is definitely her own, it is her dedication to friends and unwillingness to accept defeat under any circumstances. Clare will die to help others as we see when she saved Galatea from Duff by crossing her limit. Clare crossed her limit to kill Rigardo knowing full well she had gone to far and that she would have to die as well. Jean reversed that by dying in her place.

As for Teresa, she is still the most interesting part of the series to me . The fact she never lied anywhere except about her real power makes me wonder how much she really knew about everything we have had confirmed in recent chapters. She knew the org controlled youma and told us about it YEARS ago. Teresa had the power to wipe out the entire organization, but she chose not to. She kept her power secret. And she knew her limits as we know from her conversation with Priscilla. She knew how much youki she had.

Also interesting is Rubel showing up after she died and allowing Clare to get Teresa implanted into her. Rubel is the real powerhouse in the story. Power and youki are important, but being intelligent is more important. My personal opinion is that Rubel treated Teresa like Miria and told her all sorts of fun facts about the organization hoping that she would annihilate everything and achieve his goal of having "the organization destroy itself from the inside out". Teresa would have been the perfect candidate. Raphaela and Luciella are accomplishing it now that they have become a Destroyer. Rubels manipulations come in as 2nd most interesting thing in the story at the moment.

I am glad to see Priscilla developing as a character as well. Seeing Priscilla think clearly and fight effectively is great. She is the second most powerful character in the entire series. Easily able to annihilate 2 AO class characters and once she almost killed Isley by accident. Riful is terrified just sensing her, and she has sensed her before.

What are Priscilla's goals? Is she still trying to save Raki? Or is she going for revenge against the destroyer that "killed" him? When she finds out he is still alive will she keep her appetite under control? Priscilla always had high ideals. She just wasn't able to meet her own expectations. Raki seems to have saved her from becoming the thing she hates most (youma), but with him gone is she going to be lost like Clare was without Teresa? Priscilla was inexperienced with youki which led her to go berserk as her emotions got the best of her. But I think we might get to really know Priscilla's real personality in the next little while. So far she has proved to be strong enough to overcome her desire to eat people, which already speaks volumes about her character.

Priscilla has become almost a new entity for the series; an awakened being who stopped eating people. She even hunts youma with Raki. I do not anticipate Priscilla becoming a dyed in the wool villain. Claymore is too complex for that. I actually hope that she gets a form of redemption even if she is a monster that has eaten villages full of people. My dream of seeing Isley and Riful fight back to back was shattered. Maybe my dream of seeing controlled and fully awakened Clare (whose awakened form is a devil ) fight alongside Priscilla in a Gurren Laggan style battle against a tidal wave of Raki monsters might come true.

Raki's fate is more uncertain though. What will he become? I always anticipated him becoming a male claymore or some unnatural creature in the story with incredible power. But Yagi always gets me by surprise. Raki is now link the organization has to creating their own destroyers, a weapon they saw and knew could meet their goal (whatever that is). Not to mention those DOD's are still out there somewhere doing something... I actually anticipate that the organization is the lesser of the two evils but time will tell...

oops, long post rant.
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Old 2009-12-15, 19:47   Link #458
Shiek927
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If Raki ends up being the final villain, I don't know what to think

I can't see it happening, I just can't. He would never allow himself to lose, not to the primal instincts of Awakening, not to the Organization's condition, not to anything. He will never be a slave.
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Old 2009-12-15, 20:14   Link #459
Vantek
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I don't really see it either lol. Raki is what keeps Clare human. Making Raki a monster wouldn't just change one charachter, it would change the whole series from a desperate but not without hope struggle into an utterly depressing embracement of apocalypse. Even if monster-Raki were to be defeated, there would be nothing worthwhile left in the world for Clare.
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Old 2009-12-16, 01:59   Link #460
chibamonster
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NEWSFLASH KIDS!

Raki is already infected with a paracitic monster so powerful that it took over Beth, a specilized claymore superweapon who could awaken at will and could return to her human form by the soul link. The chances of this being important to the future plot is, oh, I'd say about 100% .

Whether he himself becomes the monster destroyer the organization desires or whether they use him to create others I am not sure. I don't know how this will play out, but I am positive that it is important to the plot .

@HK: Yagi loves his themes. Raciella just showed up as a manifestation of the twin goddesses of love so I'd say the theme is still alive and probable to show up somewhere else.

As for Rubel, the guy knows a lot . Whether he had anything to do with Teresa is left to be seen and I, for one, am excited for when we see it.
ps. does your translation say Clare went from town to town?
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