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Old 2009-12-17, 20:04   Link #6941
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
what the hell is a karma Houdini?
One who escapes karmic retribution.
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Old 2009-12-17, 20:10   Link #6942
eaglei3
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
what the hell is a karma Houdini?
A Karma Houdini is someone who gets off scott free no matter what bad stuff they might have done.
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Old 2009-12-18, 00:25   Link #6943
Nobodyman9
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And Code Geass sure as hell had it's share of them (probably one of the reasons people hate it so much) The Karma Houdinis of Code Geass, IMO, include, but are not limited to:

-Nina
-Villetta
-Ougi
-Schneizel
-Rolo (Yes, he died, but it was with respect and meaning. Much better than he deserved).
-Cornelia
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Old 2009-12-18, 00:35   Link #6944
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-and definitely Suzaku (having to be Zero until he dies does not excuse him murdering millions of people in Tokyo, he knew about his "you must live" Geass at that point and yet he still went ahead and piloted the FLEIJA armed Lancelot)
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Old 2009-12-18, 00:41   Link #6945
eaglei3
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
And Code Geass sure as hell had it's share of them (probably one of the reasons people hate it so much) The Karma Houdinis of Code Geass, IMO, include, but are not limited to:

-Nina
-Villetta
-Ougi
-Schneizel
-Rolo (Yes, he died, but it was with respect and meaning. Much better than he deserved).
-Cornelia
I'd say Nunnally is a pretty important one to add to the list as well.
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Old 2009-12-18, 00:42   Link #6946
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by eaglei3 View Post
I'd say Nunnally is a pretty important one to add to the list as well.
If it were just her nuking Lelouch's troops, I might disagree, but since she was going along with Schneizel's plan in a way, I'd say her's is a very minor case given the later events.

Which sort of brings me to a tangent: what's with Nunnally's attitude in Turn 6? I mean, I can understand being upset about Clovis' death, but Euphie's? Either Nunnally is terribly ignorant of her sister's activites, which she cannot possibly be, or completely callous about what happened. It doesn't make sense.
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Old 2009-12-18, 00:48   Link #6947
eaglei3
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If it were just her nuking Lelouch's troops, I might disagree, but since she was going along with Schneizel's plan in a way, I'd say her's is a very minor case given the later events.
Her just nuking at random is the only reason I would add her in. There is a difference in warfare between soldiers and firing weapons of mass destruction that just erase away everything. She'd be on the very bottom of the list though for blindly pushing a button when Schneizel said to fire away. It was also pretty bad that she agreed to having Pandragon blown away, even if she was convinced that it was 'forewarned...'
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Old 2009-12-18, 01:27   Link #6948
azul120
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
And Code Geass sure as hell had it's share of them (probably one of the reasons people hate it so much) The Karma Houdinis of Code Geass, IMO, include, but are not limited to:

-Nina
-Villetta
-Ougi
-Schneizel
-Rolo (Yes, he died, but it was with respect and meaning. Much better than he deserved).
-Cornelia
Nina was at the very least repentant, and did help avert the Pendragon threat, not to mention that she was used by Schneizel to an extent.

As for Schneizel, he was consigned to a Fate Worse Than Death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
If it were just her nuking Lelouch's troops, I might disagree, but since she was going along with Schneizel's plan in a way, I'd say her's is a very minor case given the later events.

Which sort of brings me to a tangent: what's with Nunnally's attitude in Turn 6? I mean, I can understand being upset about Clovis' death, but Euphie's? Either Nunnally is terribly ignorant of her sister's activites, which she cannot possibly be, or completely callous about what happened. It doesn't make sense.
I'd say the reverse, actually. Clovis was known to have been responsible for the Shinjuku Massacre.

What was really odd was how she publicly lamented the death of Calares.
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Old 2009-12-18, 02:51   Link #6949
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Nina was at the very least repentant, and did help avert the Pendragon threat, not to mention that she was used by Schneizel to an extent.
Doesn't change the fact she was a racist bigoty bitch. I mean, there really wasn't a whole lot to like about her.

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As for Schneizel, he was consigned to a Fate Worse Than Death.
Debatable. But I will consent that he did get his comeuppance to some extent.
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Old 2009-12-18, 03:06   Link #6950
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
And Code Geass sure as hell had it's share of them (probably one of the reasons people hate it so much) The Karma Houdinis of Code Geass, IMO, include, but are not limited to:

-Nina
-Villetta
-Ougi
-Schneizel
-Rolo (Yes, he died, but it was with respect and meaning. Much better than he deserved).
-Cornelia
It could be argued that Cornelia had it pretty bad at the end. In addition to losing Euphemia in the first season, she has now lost her ENTIRE family save for Schneizel, the very member responsible for the others dying, and Nunally, though the ending does seem to imply that she got over it.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
-and definitely Suzaku (having to be Zero until he dies does not excuse him murdering millions of people in Tokyo, he knew about his "you must live" Geass at that point and yet he still went ahead and piloted the FLEIJA armed Lancelot)
Suzaku's punishment is more than that. By definition (and Word of God) Suzaku's priority over everything else was death to escape from guilt and he is condemned to live for as long as possible thanks to the 'Live' command. Beyond that he has lost the woman he loved, his best friend (who he had forgiven, yet had to slay with his own hand), made the entire world his enemy, and yet will recieve praise and gratitude for the rest of his life for "Killing that bitch, Euphemia and that sicko Lelouch," as well as the 10 million innocents you mentioned due to his own ego. In truth, with the possible exception of Schneizel, Suzaku may actually have the single highest body count in all of Code Geass.

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Originally Posted by eaglei3 View Post
Her just nuking at random is the only reason I would add her in. There is a difference in warfare between soldiers and firing weapons of mass destruction that just erase away everything. She'd be on the very bottom of the list though for blindly pushing a button when Schneizel said to fire away. It was also pretty bad that she agreed to having Pandragon blown away, even if she was convinced that it was 'forewarned...'
Nunally planned to make Damocles the "symbol of hatred" for the world. She did this of her own free will as Lelouch (who was suddenly omniscient as his ability to predict Schneizel demonstrated) praised her for her resolve, rather than lament that she was a puppet til the end.

Though much like Kallen, she will have to spend her life perpetuating the lie about Lelouch in order to honor his name. Realistically, the life she will lead (Empress of half the world) should erode her heart and crush her psyche regardless of how peaceful the era is, but it is evident that realism and consistency took a back seat to make the last arc work, and give everyone their happy endings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Nina was at the very least repentant, and did help avert the Pendragon threat, not to mention that she was used by Schneizel to an extent.

As for Schneizel, he was consigned to a Fate Worse Than Death.
She also tried to blow up Tokyo in season one, and spent much or R2 throwing Euphemia's name in Suzaku's face if he didn't cowtow to her, as well as raise a fit at Milly for not "ackowledging" her when she was trying to be her friend.

Schneizel by definition had no desires for anything including his own life. His fate is to be magically given a single all consuming desire, which he will get to spend the rest of his life fulfilling. A lifetime of guaranteed Self Actualization is not what I call punishment.

And. How. Has Noone. Mentioned. GINO?!?!?! *twitches violently*

Last edited by Betteroffer; 2009-12-18 at 03:17.
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Old 2009-12-18, 03:20   Link #6951
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
Suzaku's punishment is more than that. By definition (and Word of God) Suzaku's priority over everything else was death to escape from guilt and he is condemned to live for as long as possible thanks to the 'Live' command. Beyond that he has lost the woman he loved, his best friend (who he had forgiven, yet had to slay with his own hand), made the entire world his enemy, and yet will recieve praise and gratitude for the rest of his life for "Killing that bitch, Euphemia and that sicko Lelouch," as well as the 10 million innocents you mentioned due to his own ego. In truth, with the possible exception of Schneizel, Suzaku may actually have the single highest body count in all of Code Geass.
No one will ever bring up the 35 million people he killed. In fact, they make a conscious effort to ignore it, which is really freaking annoying. Negligence on such a scale is just inexcusable, yet even Schneizel goes out of his way to relieve Suzaku of the responsibility. Suzaku was never punished by this except through his own sorrow.

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And. How. Has Noone. Mentioned. GINO?!?!?! *twitches violently*
Because he's too stupid and lacks any sort of responsibility to qualify. One time he suggests committing a massacre, which shows he's obviously ok with it, but he's the follow the leader type and doesn't make any of the decisions. He's basically your average grunt in a fancy uniform.
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Old 2009-12-18, 03:24   Link #6952
Nobodyman9
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Yeah, pretty much what morbos. I'm pretty "meh" about Gino. Yeah, he was a Brittanian (which automatically makes him evil incarnate blah blah blah) and he did some disagreeable stuff, but no worse than most of the Britannians we saw.
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Old 2009-12-18, 03:25   Link #6953
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
in fact, between the damocles, anya, kallen and the general mook population, britannians seem to be falling out of the sky at a rate of almost 10 to one
I think it was stated somewhere that Lelouch's Geassed slaves were poor pilots due to the Geass forcing them to die like lemmings for their master and otherwise causing problems with their thoughts. Which is why the only Britannian units actually doing well were the ones that weren't Geassed, which was basically Suzaku and Jeremiah.
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Old 2009-12-18, 03:30   Link #6954
Betteroffer
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Yeah, pretty much what morbos. I'm pretty "meh" about Gino. Yeah, he was a Brittanian (which automatically makes him evil incarnate blah blah blah) and he did some disagreeable stuff, but no worse than most of the Britannians we saw.
True, but it's just irritating to see people laud him as this "exception to the rule" of Britannia when he clearly isn't. I suppose it's the same way you and many other Shirley fans feel about Rolo getting praise and love despite what he did to her.
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Old 2009-12-18, 03:52   Link #6955
Nobodyman9
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True, but it's just irritating to see people laud him as this "exception to the rule" of Britannia when he clearly isn't. I suppose it's the same way you and many other Shirley fans feel about Rolo getting praise and love despite what he did to her.
I don't think anyone claimed him to be the "exception to the rule." That's just it, he's pretty much an average Britannian, but not quite as bloodthirsty. Plus, we didn't see him do anything really that terrible.

As for Rolo, yeah I guess it's more or less the same. Of course, I fail to see what Gino did that was worse than anything Rolo did (unless you want to make the argument that Rolo was a victim of brainwashing/unstable mental development, but I don't really buy that).
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Old 2009-12-18, 04:06   Link #6956
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Actually there were one or two people awhile back on these forums, though there are a also a few other places where people have made comments to that effect.

Some of the things Gino did were attacking his own allies during a heightened terror alert, the massacre comment, his happily going along with letting the Eunuchs kill the Tianzi (I'm not saying I expected him to rebel there, just that he should have given a line or two saying he was aware of and at least slightly bothered by the fact that they were intentionally going to kill a 13 year old girl), implying he would get Kallen pardoned if she simply accepted her Stadtfeld identity, abadnoning Suzaku and the disaster stricken Tokyo settlement in favor of a rousing game of pool, turning on Suzaku rather than consider that he may have been traumatized from using the FLEIJA, and rebeling against Lelouch when he was still playing the Emperor of Justice.

Not saying these things are better or worse than what Rolo has done, just that these actions don't strike me as making Gino anything other than a normal Britannian.
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Old 2009-12-18, 04:12   Link #6957
azul120
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It could be argued that Cornelia had it pretty bad at the end. In addition to losing Euphemia in the first season, she has now lost her ENTIRE family save for Schneizel, the very member responsible for the others dying, and Nunally, though the ending does seem to imply that she got over it.
She never repented or atoned for any of the carnage that was on her hands. And there were more virtuous characters, namely Nunnally and Kallen, who lost more than she did.

Gino was a little too happy-go-lucky to be all that despicable, though for one thing, he didn't seem too averse to behind the back tactics/assaults, like when he killed Senba in R2 6, or tried doing the same to Xing-ke when the latter was shielding Empress Tianzi.
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Old 2009-12-18, 04:23   Link #6958
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To avoid being a Karma Houdini, one doesn't have to repent, so much as not get punished in some form, and Cornelia did infact lose almost all of her family, only to watch their killer become a hero (we aren't sure she knows Schneizel was Geassed). Euphemia's death alone should take Cornelia far away from the Karma Houdini category. Whether or not these punishments are sufficient depends on the viewer, as I think she got off lighter than she should have, but I don't think it's fair to put her in the Houdini category.

I agree with you on Gino being a back-attack guy, though I don't really hold that against him, as it's more in keeping with being an efficient soldier, though I wouldn't consider him anything close to 'honorable' (something else I've seen people call him).
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Old 2009-12-18, 04:35   Link #6959
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Cornelia does get to live the rest of her life in freedom though, no strings attached. She only had a character shift because of the people she cared about dying, not some My God What Have I Done revelation.
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Old 2009-12-18, 07:46   Link #6960
bladeofdarkness
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come on
you have a HUGE list of people here that you say are karma hudini
not because they didnt pay at all (which is the TRUE definition of karma hudini)
but because they didnt pay "enough" in the eyes of the one making the claim

thats hardly fair, because in some cases, its litteraly impossible to pay enough
nina can spend her life curing cancer and HIV and still never make up for everything she's guilty of
suzaku's the same (he has a death toll in the tens of millions)
and nunnaly is also beyond the point of equal trade
and even lelouch, who actually DIED to make up for it, is hardly in the clear
simply because the numbers CANT match up no matter what you do

you cant just say "they suffered SOME, but not enough to avoid being karma hudini"
the whole point of a karma hudini is that they do all the stuff they did, AND GOT AWAY WITH IT CLEAN
by my book, all it takes is basiclly two factors to avoid being a karma hudini
1)honest repentence about your actions (key factor)
2)having suffered, as a result of them/having taken considerable actions to undo the harm, or otherwise improve the world as payment for ones actions

in that regard, Schneizel is NOT a karma hudini, because he got whats coming to him
he is a slave for all of his life (pretty much a fate worse then death)

suzaku nunnaly and nina also are not karma hudini because nina and suzaku both did everything they could to prevent a greater catastrophy and make the world a better place
and nunnaly ended up losing the one person in the world who matters the most to her, and is seemingly try to improve the world in the epilouge

ougi is debetable, not simply because he didnt really "got away with it" (almost got killed, and thrown in jail for a few months)
but because its debatable if his actions actually WARRENT a karmic retrebution beyond what he actually GOT (remember, ougi was stupid, not evil)

the only ones who truely count are cornellia, villeta (although, being married to ougi might count )

and gino's just an idiot
he didnt actually do anything to truely warrent a karmic retrebution beyond just generally being an idiot who's fighting on the wrong side of a war
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