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Old 2009-12-18, 07:05   Link #21
roriconfan
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Imagine two promos for two series.
The first says: "A tale you have all seen before and know how it will turn out to be from the very first episode. So enjoy a one-of-the-same story of love, romance, whatever and see how the good guys win and get the girl in the end."
The second says: "Plot twists at every corner. You will never guess what happens next."

Well, doodlydoo, I would drop the first and grab the second right away.

But wait, this has to do with predictability and not with what the author does.
Imagine stories like Neon Genesis or The Lord of the Rings. Their makers really infused themselves in them and turned them into unique experiances for their era. You cannot say that about most series or movies, which are made specifically to please the viewers / readers with predictable formulas and simple stories. And I do admit that all stories, movies, series, have a huge part of their creators infused in them too. But some have that in a lot less degree than others. Heck, I came to see how the more people are involved with creating something, the less unique or special the final result is.

If I can use this as an example, imagine the Haruhi series. The first was special, the second was not. Why is that? Because the first was more that what it seemed to be at first, while the second was the opposite. Was it a series made for the fanbase? Yes, to a great extend. And that is why it failed. And I knew it would fail from the first moment I heard they would remake it. Really great shows don't have remakes or sequels just because the fans scream for more. They fail and lose their uniqueness when they do.

And know what? The next Code Geass will flop too because of it. If it stopped there, it would be a legend, despite its flaws. But now? They are going to butcher it, as they did with Haruhi. Why? Because they heard the fans and want munny.

It is crystal clear to me how really good shows (not hyped moeblobs, full of recycled ero-fetishes) don't have sequels and the authors don't listen to the fanbase. Heck, it is the fanbase who listens to the authors.
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Old 2009-12-18, 07:10   Link #22
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Because obviously you know the inner workings of every studio and why decision were made................obviously.
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Old 2009-12-18, 07:11   Link #23
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
And know what? The next Code Geass will flop too because of it. If it stopped there, it would be a legend, despite its flaws. But now? They are going to butcher it, as they did with Haruhi. Why? Because they heard the fans and want munny.
Finally someone who agrees

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Originally Posted by animeboy12 View Post
Because obviously you know the inner workings of every studio and why decision were made................obviously.
The main objective of certain studio's is to make money by milking it is repeated over and over again with their projects, after several years of watching their works you start noticing which animation studio's actually give a damn about plot and which ones are just animating it to gain a fanbase and then milk them out for even more cash by feeding them the left over scraps they can come up with
There is only a hand full that can afford people to write out an original story that does not have a manga blueprint that tells them what to do and even less that do not have the finance board hungering over them to make more panty shots and bigger boobs cause then the rating will go higher

Last edited by -KarumA-; 2009-12-18 at 07:25.
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Old 2009-12-18, 07:23   Link #24
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Imagine two promos for two series.
The first says: "A tale you have all seen before and know how it will turn out to be from the very first episode. So enjoy a one-of-the-same story of love, romance, whatever and see how the good guys win and get the girl in the end."
The second says: "Plot twists at every corner. You will never guess what happens next."

Well, doodlydoo, I would drop the first and grab the second right away.
Because you really think that advertisers would do that? They may as well change job.
Quote:

*about LoTR and Eva*
On LoTR:

It was in no way unique as people makes it to be. Actually it is pretty classic. What made LoTR stand out other than defining what would be modern fantasy was:

- A HUGE effort on building the world, complete with its own mythos and fictional language.

- The one entrusted with the task to save the world is not a Chosen One, but the most ordinary guy one can find. Even then, it can be argued that Sam is the actual protagonist and not Frodo, as he is the one who will finish the tale.

The tale is classic but some elements were new back in its time.

On Eva:

Starting out as classic but take archetypes and deconstruct them through the story.
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Old 2009-12-18, 07:24   Link #25
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
If I can use this as an example, imagine the Haruhi series. The first was special, the second was not. Why is that? Because the first was more that what it seemed to be at first, while the second was the opposite. Was it a series made for the fanbase? Yes, to a great extend. And that is why it failed. And I knew it would fail from the first moment I heard they would remake it. Really great shows don't have remakes or sequels just because the fans scream for more. They fail and lose their uniqueness when they do.
If you wanted to give a good example for your position, Haruhi is definitely not the way to go, since it doesn't fit your criteria at all.

It's based on a series of books. The second season, like the first, is almost all content from the first three light novels, that were written before it ever became an anime. So it wasn't additional crap written for fans to like, "therefore making it bad." It was drawn from the same books as the first season. If you want to compare why the first season was much more celebrated, it has more to do with the organization of the first season to finish at the end of the first book, which has a dramatic climax, whereas the second season was composed mostly of the Endless Eight (one storyline repeated) and Sighs (which shows how the movie from the first season was made, so while new content, the audience already knew the outcome, therefore it did not possess any particular tension for the audience). And in fact, the Endless Eight was a twist (lets do the time loop episode multiple times) that was unexpected, and that a large amount of the fan base didn't care for (although I didn't really mind it).

It has absolutely nothing to do with an author catering to fan desires instead of writing creatively. They simply animated the remaining sections of novels two and three before making a film for the fourth.
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Old 2009-12-18, 07:44   Link #26
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Haruhi's other problem is that three years passed between S1 and S1.5, there all sense of novelty have worn out.
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Old 2009-12-18, 11:28   Link #27
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A true fan enjoys a writers work for what it is, not for what it isn't. They recognize that while they might have done things differently, it's not their story, it's the writers. Leave the "I would have done this instead" to the realm of fan fiction.
Once you start seeing yourself as a "true fan" you are in big trouble, IMO. As a fan, I say it might not be my story but that doesn't mean I shouldn't voice an opinion whether it's a good story or not. It's not so much "I would have done this instead" as it is "this development makes no freaking sense because..."
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Old 2009-12-18, 11:36   Link #28
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Now you make it look like the Haruhi thing was never made to last since it was based entirely on the thrill of the moment and not because it was anything special from the get go.

So it WAS about the author making the fans to like his work, only it didn't last.
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Old 2009-12-18, 11:59   Link #29
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I like plot twists. Also, I generally like anime that surprise me and still be good than an anime that I expected and is still good. Anime that surprised me in a good way were MSLN A's, Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Clannad (S1), Figure 17, ef - a tale of memories, Inuyasha, and Cardcaptor Sakura. Figure 17 was done really well, with a similar plot twist to The Sixth Sense, where you know what's going to happen just seconds before it's revealed.

However, surprises don't happen anymore because of...the Internet. Since most anime are adaptations of some kind, you will surely be spoiled in one way or another if you browser anime forums (like AS) often. When something exciting happens in the manga, chances are you'll be spoiled before the anime shows it. When something unexpected happens in the VN, chances are someone who played it will give that unnecessary hint will make it no longer a surprise.

One trend that I see when I watch anime is this: Anime gets better when people die. It's true--at least for me.
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Old 2009-12-18, 12:18   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrim View Post
Once you start seeing yourself as a "true fan" you are in big trouble, IMO. As a fan, I say it might not be my story but that doesn't mean I shouldn't voice an opinion whether it's a good story or not. It's not so much "I would have done this instead" as it is "this development makes no freaking sense because..."
definitely agree with that.

Another problem is that people are assume fans are a single entity that speak with one vioce, which couldn't be more untrue. Also I think it's important to remember that with anime we are not the target fan base. So many times in these types of discussion you hear "The fans like this" or "the fans hated this". who are you talking about?

Last edited by animeboy12; 2009-12-18 at 12:36.
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Old 2009-12-18, 12:40   Link #31
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Now you make it look like the Haruhi thing was never made to last since it was based entirely on the thrill of the moment and not because it was anything special from the get go.

So it WAS about the author making the fans to like his work, only it didn't last.
You obviously had no idea what you were talking about and still don't.

The second season wasn't a failure. The people that hate it hate it for repeating the same episode eight times, which certainly has nothing to do with the writing. There is a highly anticipated feature film coming out. The second season was from the same source material as the first. You pointed it out as an example of how after a successful first season, had additional content created for the fans as a way to milk it for more money, thus failing from lack of creative writing. This is obviously not the case, as I have already explained they are from the same three books. The second season isn't even from additional later books: the first season used content from 1-3, and the second used content from 2 and 3.

So now because your claims were so blatantly wrong, you're now saying that it was bad predictable writing for fan desires instead of creative writing from the beginning? Didn't you just call the first season special and the second season not in your first post? How exactly did Tanigawa create what was in your opinion clichéd writing for fans, yet good original writing at the same time? You're just contradicting yourself to make a new argument.
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Old 2009-12-18, 14:00   Link #32
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Well said, but..........

While being a true fan of a writer's work means accepting everything it is, but frankly i think this still would not actually hide the fact that the work still could be flawed.The fact that other people have other viewpoints on it in the first place is proof of that.

I don't know, Ive never been a true fan of any work out there,and I'll probably never be.
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Once you start seeing yourself as a "true fan" you are in big trouble, IMO. As a fan, I say it might not be my story but that doesn't mean I shouldn't voice an opinion whether it's a good story or not. It's not so much "I would have done this instead" as it is "this development makes no freaking sense because..."
The whole point of being a fan is to accept flaws for the greater of the story. Assuming that it's not something so completely ridiculous (Superman swoops in to save Ichigo at the last second) that your suspension of belief is completely screwed of course.

Personally I can find myself enjoying nearly anything, as long as it fits my particular interest of the moment. For example, I really enjoy gender bending stories. This includes more than just traps, a good gender bending story can also just be a simple reversal of social gender roles (women rule the world for example). However, to be honest there are very few gender benders that are more than mere gimmicks. I was rather disappointed that Kampfer fell into this. Sure there's a few moments where there's a point to Natsuru being a trap, but they don't really impact the story enough because the story in Kampfer is for the most part too...well, absent.

However I did enjoy the characters and there's enough air of "mystery" combined with the silly moments that I found myself laughing at scenes and reading the new chapters and watching the new episodes despite the fact that the Kampfer wars plot plays second tier to the many random scenarios that occur.

So for me, that's what a fan does. I can certainly blast the author for creating a subpar story but because the rest of the elements are enjoyable I can still enjoy it for what it is, rather than what it isn't. That doesn't mean I can't discuss the (lack of) story with other people, but to rant that it didn't meet my expectations suggests that my time would be better off finding something else of interest if I truly dislike it that much.

11 eyes is another example. Initially I was really hooked into the mysteries of the story, but the leaps of logic the anime expects you to take were just too much for me. I haven't watched the last three or four episodes because things like Yuka going tsundere were handled so poorly (in my opinion of course) that the mystery wasn't enough to keep my interest. For me at least, 11 eyes isn't something I can be a fan of. I may finish the series for the sake of completion but I probably won't be participating much in discussion beyond just giving some final thoughts.
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Old 2009-12-18, 14:30   Link #33
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One trend that I see when I watch anime is this: Anime gets better when people die. It's true--at least for me.
This is an interesting point you bring up. On the one hand, it is certainly impressive when an author can write the death of a character, especially a character that is likable. Many works that I particularly enjoy include deaths. Deaths can make a story powerful. They can also add realism. Including deaths is also a good example of avoiding writing according to the fan's desires, since people generally don't want a character that they enjoy to die. Done well, it can be a powerful plot twist.

I'm not entirely sold on the idea that deaths necessarily improves a story. There's a couple kinds of deaths that I find to be either do nothing to improve the plot, or can even make it worse.

The first type of death that I question is what I would call "the token death." This is where one character is killed off in way that doesn't really do much to improve or move the story. There are plenty of times where only one character dies and it is an important or appropriate part of the story and improves the plot. However, there are also times when it seems that the writer just decides to kill off a character to artificially add drama. You'll excuse me if I don't give examples, since even with spoiler tags for the topic, it could still spoil people with the knowledge of deaths in the story.

The other kind of death in a story that I think general hurts the story more than helps it is the "everyone dies ending." This kind of death scenario is where all the major characters, either including or excluding the lead protagonist, die at the end of the story, either all at once or one after another. Very occasionally this can be well done, but often it seems like a cheap way to end the story by creating overwhelming tragedy and avoiding having to write falling action for the characters.

So, in general I do agree with you that deaths are a powerful choice on the part of the author and can be important elements of story, but I don't think that they necessarily always do as a rule.
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Old 2009-12-18, 16:40   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post

One trend that I see when I watch anime is this: Anime gets better when people die. It's true--at least for me.
This has been my experience too.

Particularly in the three following animes...


Spoiler for Very spoilerrific character deaths listed for many animes!:



Don't get me wrong; each of these three deaths were hard to take. They all involved very strong and/or likable characters. If you were to do a Jason Todd/Robin-esque fan pool of "Should this character die?", I'm sure that you'd get an overwhelmingly "No!" response for each. In other words, these particular characters dying is something that the fan did not want.


However, what each of these deaths did, in my opinion, was...

1) Very much take you by surprise.

2) Ramp up the drama and suspense massively.

3) Be the catalyst for loads of great character development and compelling narratives.


Now, that being said, Ansalem's points are well-made. Here is another reason why I don't follow western comics like I use to... death was frequently handled very cheaply there.


Another point I'd add to Ansalem's is that if you kill a lot of characters, and you bring a lot of characters back to life... it can start to seem pretty lame, and it can undermine the internal integrity of your fictional universe.

By "internal integrity", I basically mean the fictional universe's believability.


In particular, I felt that this approach really hurt...

Spoiler for Big spoiler here!:



This may actually be my main reason for writers to avoid always giving the fans what they want. Before it actually happens, few fans would support the killing of a popular character. And yet, such a move can often add a lot to a show if handled correctly.
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Old 2009-12-18, 16:59   Link #35
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I know one thing for sure. Killing any Naruto character besides Naruto or Sasuke will have much less appeal than killing any One Piece character.
Why?
Well, for starters people in OP die only in flashbacks, so a death in the present will feel like a major surprise. Second, because most OP characters feel a lot more important to the plot or the humor that most of Naruto characters.
And yes, if you listen to the fans, nobody must never die... or stay permenently dead.
Dragonball anyone?

What I find really hard in any series is to kill a character who is just following a trope and has no personality or development thereafter. Because many series base their appeal on archetypes and even with one less of them, the series feels incomplete thereafter. Imagine a Bleach where Zaraki dies or a Sayonara Zetsubo with any of the girls leaving the school. It is not the same anymore. Like a collection that misses a piece.
And unfortunately, I find that most people look at trends and not at characters. Just like playing a good date sim, you may favor a girl over the rest but you still can't imagine the game being equally good without some of them.

A smart story can work without all of its cast present. A good author can maintain the quality of the story even if an important character dies. These things almost demand that the writter must not listen to the fans. If he does, all the characters will turn to tropes and archetypes, switching cloths and hairstyles just for the heck of it.
Remember the Bleach beach episode? The characters have no personality. They just get different cloths and roles and that is all the flavoring they get.
Fan service eventually does this to any character. And what is fan service? Something the author includes to please the fans.
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Old 2009-12-18, 16:59   Link #36
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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
So, in general I do agree with you that deaths are a powerful choice on the part of the author and can be important elements of story, but I don't think that they necessarily always do as a rule.
I'm not sure about everyone but a certain death in Death Note was definantly a low point in the series for me least

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

This may actually be my main reason for writers to avoid always giving the fans what they want. Before it actually happens, few fans would support the killing of a popular character. And yet, such a move can often add a lot to a show if handled correctly.
My problem is that no one here fully knows what the fans want. A couple a perusals through forums (especially western ones) aren't going to be of much use. All everyone wants to do is assume that crappy every plot point that happens in an anime is because the "fans" took control, yet they can't even bother to come up with a single piece of evidence (quips, interviews, anything). Instead apparently their intuition is just that good

Last edited by animeboy12; 2009-12-18 at 17:14.
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Old 2009-12-18, 17:00   Link #37
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The whole point of being a fan is to accept flaws for the greater of the story. Assuming that it's not something so completely ridiculous (Superman swoops in to save Ichigo at the last second)
Wish I could see the fan reaction if this ever happened.
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Old 2009-12-18, 17:24   Link #38
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Wish I could see the fan reaction if this ever happened.
What a twist! (TM)

If Superman was the manifestation of Zaraki's bankai, and was talking all dirty and grabing women's boobs, he would be a legendary character of the level of Excalibur from Soul Eater.

Still, he would be a trope and nothing more...
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Old 2009-12-18, 17:30   Link #39
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My problem is that no one here fully knows what the fans want.
I take a look at the Nanoha fandom that had been... rather interesting.

Western fans "generally" dislikes the third season. On the other hand, japanese fans begs to differ as it is the best selling season in its homeland. One part of the fans seems to want a bigger focus on the shipping part (especially NanoFate vs NanoYuuno), the other part want more substance than *hugs* *kiss* *blush*. Voice actresses want NanoaFate, the main writer of the series facepalms at that. And to not help it, two manga are released, one staying close to the roots of the series, the second going in the tone set by the third season. Also, a third manga based on the upcoming movie set discussions ablaze on its canon status. I really mean the ablaze part.

In the end, what do we really want?
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Old 2009-12-18, 17:34   Link #40
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I take a look at the Nanoha fandom that had been... rather interesting.

Western fans "generally" dislikes the third season.
So basically, what you're saying is that Western fans are dumb.

Nanoha Strikers is pretty badass.
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