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Old 2009-12-18, 18:51   Link #1021
k//eternal
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The in-game TIPS state otherwise. Beato doesn't even reach the rank of Voyager, much less Creator.
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:12   Link #1022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muyasuki View Post
I can't remember where I heard it but I'm pretty sure that Ange was apparently sickly or something.
It is mentioned as early as Episode 1 in the VN that Ange was sick and could therefore not attend the first family conference where Battler should be back after his absence since 6 years ago.
How this sickness came along is never fully explained, we only get to know that apparently Ange is a very fragile child who is easy to get sick....ironically that is NOT the image we get from her grown up self (she must have eaten good in those 12 years).
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:17   Link #1023
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Originally Posted by Muyasuki View Post
The whole purpose of this is so that Beatrice can be revived. If she had the ability to create a full being, then why would she need to go through all the effort. Even if it didn't work that way, she could just undo the magic on Battler and reapply it to herself.

How did you even come to the conclusion that Battler doesn't exist anyways. There are WAY WAY too many ways that prove how much he actually existed and none (that I can think of) that would prove otherwise.

@spideys95: What makes you think Battler isn't Rudolph's son? I don't think anything was said to contradict it.

With that out of the way, I'm starting to think that Rudolph and (maybe) Kyrie knew what was going to happen at the island (or at least thought they knew). It didn't even dawn on me till recently that in the first arc, Rudolph mentioned that he would most likely die to Battler and (I think Kyrie). Taking this into account (even though I do not have any idea how he got the funds unless he knew for a fact he wasn't making it out alive and used all of his own wealth), I think that it was him who sent out those letters with the keys to all of those relatives. I also think he may have done something to prevent Ange from going as well. He may have wanted to do the same for Battler but doubted that it would be as easy to explain both of them missing out. I can't remember where I heard it but I'm pretty sure that Ange was apparently sickly or something.
Hmmmm... well... I really wish I could tell you all the little secrets about Umineko but if I do then it will be spoiled and the anime/VN will be ruined for alot of people, I only applied SOME of my knowledge of Umineko to that.
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:38   Link #1024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
(she must have eaten good in those 12 years).
Or, maybe, her immune system got better
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Old 2009-12-18, 20:20   Link #1025
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Battler does not exist. He is sort of a "Nobody" where he doesn't exist but has a physical body and a mind with a will of its own. Please, tell me all the many ways that my theory is wrong, so I can revise it. I don't feel like wasting anymore time. By the way, I'm going to note the fact that Beatrice is a witch with the title of Endless, so she can do whatever she wants.
Battler defintely exists. He fills the There's no more than 18 people on the island!! said by Eva-Beatrice and Beatrice herself.

Not only that, he fills the qualification of
Spoiler for Ep. 5:


Certaintly, in the VN, his death is indeed said in red later on. Also, why wouldn't he be there? If he wasn't there, then there's really no mystery to solve. Everyone believes in magic there and is crazy!
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Old 2009-12-18, 22:08   Link #1026
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A person can "be" but can't "exist." Such as Beatrice, she can't "exist" in the human world, but she can "be" in the human world. Think of... what's that game called... Kingdom Hearts and their "Nobodies."
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Old 2009-12-18, 23:05   Link #1027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
A person can "be" but can't "exist." Such as Beatrice, she can't "exist" in the human world, but she can "be" in the human world. Think of... what's that game called... Kingdom Hearts and their "Nobodies."
As I have not played Kingdom Hearts, I do not understand this. A is A. If Battler is on the island, he exists, according to rational theory. The only way to avoid otherwise is to accept the existance of the witch, which frankly is what you're doing. You're claiming that there is magic, and that magic is used to create Battler, which is against the idea of the game, that is to find the true human culprit.
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Old 2009-12-18, 23:11   Link #1028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
A person can "be" but can't "exist." Such as Beatrice, she can't "exist" in the human world, but she can "be" in the human world. Think of... what's that game called... Kingdom Hearts and their "Nobodies."
Theory of Forms?
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Old 2009-12-18, 23:55   Link #1029
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Wow, somebody actually caught it.
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Old 2009-12-19, 00:15   Link #1030
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I don't think that's what Plato meant to say. Forms are general concepts, you can't have a "Battler form" since Battler is an individual. In addition in ancient greek there weren't corresponding words for "to be" and "to exist", Plato used the same word "exist" applying different meanings to it depending on the various cases.

To be clear you need to specify what do you mean by "to be" and by "to exist", because in the common usage they are synonyms.
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Old 2009-12-19, 00:26   Link #1031
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
It is mentioned as early as Episode 1 in the VN that Ange was sick and could therefore not attend the first family conference where Battler should be back after his absence since 6 years ago.
How this sickness came along is never fully explained, we only get to know that apparently Ange is a very fragile child who is easy to get sick....ironically that is NOT the image we get from her grown up self (she must have eaten good in those 12 years).
i always thought she had a cold or flu or something (given the time it would make sense). i coulda sworn i read that. then again may just be my mind going, well that makes sense so i prolly read it.
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Old 2009-12-19, 00:53   Link #1032
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The only thing we know about Ange's sickness is that she had a fever and was throwing up. We don't know anything at all about her hardiness or what her sickness is.

Oh, we know one other thing. We know that whoever sent the letters to the survivors of those killed on Rokkenjima in EP 3 knew that Ange was going to be sick, even though the letters were probably sent out before she became sick.

(And if you go with the "Kyrie is involved/is the mastermind" idea, that suddenly makes a huge amount of sense, doesn't it ... maybe Ange's illness was engineered to keep her away from the island.)
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Old 2009-12-19, 01:08   Link #1033
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think that's what Plato meant to say. Forms are general concepts, you can't have a "Battler form" since Battler is an individual. In addition in ancient greek there weren't corresponding words for "to be" and "to exist", Plato used the same word "exist" applying different meanings to it depending on the various cases.

To be clear you need to specify what do you mean by "to be" and by "to exist", because in the common usage they are synonyms.
I always interpreted "to be" as "to exist with a meaning, with no necessity of a physical form" and "to exist" as "to exist physically, with or without a meaning"
But yeah, the whole theory is really complicated and I didn't really catch the concept entirely. ^^'

Quote:
The only thing we know about Ange's sickness is that she had a fever and was throwing up. We don't know anything at all about her hardiness or what her sickness is.

Oh, we know one other thing. We know that whoever sent the letters to the survivors of those killed on Rokkenjima in EP 3 knew that Ange was going to be sick, even though the letters were probably sent out before she became sick.

(And if you go with the "Kyrie is involved/is the mastermind" idea, that suddenly makes a huge amount of sense, doesn't it ... maybe Ange's illness was engineered to keep her away from the island.)
Maybe Kyrie used some kind of medicine on Ange? After all, some medications can actually make someone sick if used improperly, such as homeopathic medicine.

By the way, I don't know if this means anything to the story, but some homeopathic medicines use small doses of gold... This reminds me of Nanjo and his sick granddaughter.
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Old 2009-12-19, 01:24   Link #1034
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Originally Posted by Metaler View Post
I always interpreted "to be" as "to exist with a meaning, with no necessity of a physical form" and "to exist" as "to exist physically, with or without a meaning"
But yeah, the whole theory is really complicated and I didn't really catch the concept entirely. ^^'


Maybe Kyrie used some kind of medicine on Ange? After all, some medications can actually make someone sick if used improperly, such as homeopathic medicine.

By the way, I don't know if this means anything to the story, but some homeopathic medicines use small doses of gold... This reminds me of Nanjo and his sick granddaughter.
Err, no. Homeopathic "Medicine" is a glorified placebo, and would be highly ineffective for inducing illness of any kind.

Other medicines or drugs might work though.
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Old 2009-12-19, 01:55   Link #1035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think that's what Plato meant to say. Forms are general concepts, you can't have a "Battler form" since Battler is an individual. In addition in ancient greek there weren't corresponding words for "to be" and "to exist", Plato used the same word "exist" applying different meanings to it depending on the various cases.

To be clear you need to specify what do you mean by "to be" and by "to exist", because in the common usage they are synonyms.
I'm only using the theory as a basis. If there is the possibility that there are two Battlers, the one that we know and the won born to Asumu, then the one we know is a simple creation, nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 2009-12-19, 02:06   Link #1036
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Originally Posted by Graskell View Post
Err, no. Homeopathic "Medicine" is a glorified placebo, and would be highly ineffective for inducing illness of any kind.

Other medicines or drugs might work though.
Oh... ._.'
Well, at least I tried. xD

The question now is: what kind of drug would induce fever and vomiting.
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Old 2009-12-19, 02:17   Link #1037
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Originally Posted by Metaler View Post
Oh... ._.'
Well, at least I tried. xD

The question now is: what kind of drug would induce fever and vomiting.
Actually pharmacologically speaking, pretty much any drug can cause fevers and vomiting (specifically immune reactions and gastointestinal irritations), especially those that can be hepatotoxic.
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Old 2009-12-19, 07:09   Link #1038
Kaiba
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I'm only using the theory as a basis. If there is the possibility that there are two Battlers, the one that we know and the won born to Asumu, then the one we know is a simple creation, nothing more, nothing less.
And once again I'm asking what does this mean? Battler clearly exists. He lives on the island and it's generally accepted that his viewpoint on the game is the one thing besides the red we can reliably rely on (something which I think you've missed, as you seem to think only the red can be used as evidence.) There is no way to not believe that fact without believing in the existance of the witch, which is impossible.
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Old 2009-12-19, 10:53   Link #1039
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I'm only using the theory as a basis. If there is the possibility that there are two Battlers, the one that we know and the won born to Asumu, then the one we know is a simple creation, nothing more, nothing less.
By "the one we know" you mean piece Battler? That requires some magical thinking to believe he was "created". There is no way to create human beings or replica of them with the technology available in 1986.
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Old 2009-12-19, 13:05   Link #1040
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My theory is that
Spoiler for theory on relationship between Battler and Beatrice:
.
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