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Old 2009-12-21, 14:51   Link #2221
Kafriel
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Only I find that manga very annoying and full of cliches? It's like reading something you've read million times before, all that sacrifice for a friends but actually staying alive, all those righteous talks and stuff. Don't get me wrong it's not bad, but it is so stereotypical it seems it's just a mix of other mangas. Is it me or Natsu is Naruto#2 like in everything?
If I wanted to watch boobs I'd watch hentai, it's like the author just can't have enough of those perverted panels and tries to include them even in every battle.
Well, it can get you a few laughs, but sometimes I can't just make myself go on after seeing such a "touchy" scenes of sacrificing your life for everyone and ONE chapter later appearing alive and ready to kick ass. If you plan to die then DIE DAMNIT! This manga is so sweet, it's bitter.
Very few mangakas openly kill their characters in fights, so everyone coming out alive shouldn't be so much of a surprise. In fact, and entire guild died in this episode and passed the point of no return, so you should be happy enough...At least there is a level of realism: Luxus was banished and Gerard was arrested, it's not like everyone forgot about it and went happy-go-lucky. The ecchiness is increasing in most mangas I'm reading atm, so apparently it draws people in more than we might think. I wouldn't call FT stereotypical, because we STILL don't have a main plot laid out before us; who Zeref really is, what he wants, what are the dragons up to, etc., which are the plot points that can go past "world domination".
Also, as waven and krono pointed out, Natsu is nothing like Naruto...he lacks the insane attachment to ANY person, looks for Igneel without going emo at every reference, and doesn't talk trash to his friends, who mean a hell of a lot more to him than the genin rookies mean to Naruto.
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Old 2009-12-21, 15:20   Link #2222
Anh_Minh
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I could see a similarity to Luffy but Naruto?.... naa not really
Well, the three of them are idiotic happy-go-lucky heroes with a somewhat inflated opinion of their own strength and a strong sense of camaraderie.
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Old 2009-12-21, 22:15   Link #2223
Slayerx
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Well safe to say i didn't see that coming... kind of an unexpected way of "killing off" the guild so that Wendy can join fairy tail without actually killing them off


granted though, it suffers from something i've felt has been a common problem in fairy tail; not enough build up... Sacrifce and lost are WAY more effective when you had time to actually get to know the characters. Jet, D'Roy, and Levi were the first when they got pinned to that tree before we ever really got to know them... Loki was another as we got barely any build up to his character before his show down with the stellar spirit king... I felt fried was another one considering his emotional breakdown at the end of his fight with Mira... Elfman might be another one... all emotional moments that would have been much more effective with more build up and attention given to the characters BEFORE the event; and in there case it would not have been hard as some of those early arcs could have traded one character for another; or insert a little bit of filler material

If we had seen Wendy's interaction with the rest of her guild and actually gotten to know a few of them, this chapter would have been outright brilliant... though of course the problem there is that wendy would have had to been introduced much earlier on; which might have screwed with things... we are talking major re-writing
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Old 2009-12-22, 00:18   Link #2224
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Well safe to say i didn't see that coming... kind of an unexpected way of "killing off" the guild so that Wendy can join fairy tail without actually killing them off


granted though, it suffers from something i've felt has been a common problem in fairy tail; not enough build up... Sacrifce and lost are WAY more effective when you had time to actually get to know the characters. Jet, D'Roy, and Levi were the first when they got pinned to that tree before we ever really got to know them... Loki was another as we got barely any build up to his character before his show down with the stellar spirit king... I felt fried was another one considering his emotional breakdown at the end of his fight with Mira... Elfman might be another one... all emotional moments that would have been much more effective with more build up and attention given to the characters BEFORE the event; and in there case it would not have been hard as some of those early arcs could have traded one character for another; or insert a little bit of filler material

If we had seen Wendy's interaction with the rest of her guild and actually gotten to know a few of them, this chapter would have been outright brilliant... though of course the problem there is that wendy would have had to been introduced much earlier on; which might have screwed with things... we are talking major re-writing
Though you may offend hardcore FT fans with that post, I laud your critical analysis. Very well put and i agree 110%
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Old 2009-12-22, 02:13   Link #2225
Anh_Minh
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If we had seen Wendy's interaction with the rest of her guild and actually gotten to know a few of them, this chapter would have been outright brilliant... though of course the problem there is that wendy would have had to been introduced much earlier on; which might have screwed with things... we are talking major re-writing
Though we won't miss them for their own sake, we can feel plenty sorry for Wendy. (Helped in that by her moeblob status more than actual "build-up", true. But we did get her back story.)
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Old 2009-12-22, 03:50   Link #2226
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granted though, it suffers from something i've felt has been a common problem in fairy tail; not enough build up... Sacrifce and lost are WAY more effective when you had time to actually get to know the characters. Jet, D'Roy, and Levi were the first when they got pinned to that tree before we ever really got to know them... Loki was another as we got barely any build up to his character before his show down with the stellar spirit king... I felt fried was another one considering his emotional breakdown at the end of his fight with Mira... Elfman might be another one... all emotional moments that would have been much more effective with more build up and attention given to the characters BEFORE the event; and in there case it would not have been hard as some of those early arcs could have traded one character for another; or insert a little bit of filler material
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though of course the problem there is that wendy would have had to been introduced much earlier on; which might have screwed with things... we are talking major re-writing
Applying the second part of your post (that is, getting to know the characters) to each and every member of the first part, would drag the story way too much for secondary characters. Mashima is trying to do justice to all of his creations, but still has to focus on the main characters and an actual plot, which is, at least in my opinion, Fairy Tail's biggest problem. So...character development VS plot progress, which would you choose and why? Everyone's opinions are welcome
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Old 2009-12-22, 05:06   Link #2227
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Well, the three of them are idiotic happy-go-lucky heroes with a somewhat inflated opinion of their own strength and a strong sense of camaraderie.
Maybe Naruto near the beginning of the manga, but the Naruto now is way overburdened with emotional baggage to be like Natsu.
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Old 2009-12-22, 08:06   Link #2228
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That, and he wants to solo, while Luffy cares deeply for his crew as Natsu does for his guild, but Naruto would arguably save Sasuke at the expense of Konoha.
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Old 2009-12-22, 13:19   Link #2229
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Applying the second part of your post (that is, getting to know the characters) to each and every member of the first part, would drag the story way too much for secondary characters. Mashima is trying to do justice to all of his creations, but still has to focus on the main characters and an actual plot, which is, at least in my opinion, Fairy Tail's biggest problem. So...character development VS plot progress, which would you choose and why? Everyone's opinions are welcome
not exaclty, even the minimum amount of character build up would have helped; it would have been better than virtually nothing... hell, i wouldn't give everyone as much attention as Wendy; she's likely gonna be a major player where as the rest are minor

With Levi, Jet and D'Roy, i would have have given them about as much screen time as Loki had before the stellar king arc... It's like instead of giving us a flashback that tells us Lucy was levi's friend why don't we actually SEE when she became friends... at the very least we should have enough to recognize the characters pinned to the tree... otherwise it's more like "3 generic fairy tail members"

Fried, same amount of screen time i'd give the other 3... instead of giving us a flashback telling us he was relatively liked in fairy tail and that the members made an effort to get close, why don't we actually SEE some of those moments... give him the status of a background character at the very least... really just enough screentime to HINT at the fact the people tried to get close to him and that he is not same hated villain like Luxus

Loki on the otherhand, he i would want to see involved in a whole arc. Frankly, i think it might be good to have found a way to swap out Ezra for him in the Lullaby arc... when it comes down to it, Ezra did not NEED to be there and could have saved her into for the Moon Drip arc... Lullaby could have provided some decent character build up, while also laying down some subtle foreshadowing... maybe even throw him into Phantom Lord arc, instead of having Natsu get in two fights...

All in all, for the minimum amount of build up for the characters that i think i should get it, we are talking about re-writing some arcs (not necessarily making them much longer), and probably adding a couple of chapters worth of filler material... that's for the minimum and it doesn't drag things on THAT much longer (though ideally i might go for more)


but really, i don't think you can really sacrifice character development for Plot development... after all it's the characters that make the plot so dynamic; half ass the characters and you infact hurt the plot aswell... Not to mention one thing that has annoyed me is the very constant Natsu, Happy, Lucy, Gray, Ezra team up... We would be able to get a lot more exposure to other members of fairy tail if Mashima would just change that line up once in a while.
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Old 2009-12-22, 13:30   Link #2230
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not exaclty, even the minimum amount of character build up would have helped; it would have been better than virtually nothing... hell, i wouldn't give everyone as much attention as Wendy; she's likely gonna be a major player where as the rest are minor

With Levi, Jet and D'Roy, i would have have given them about as much screen time as Loki had before the stellar king arc... It's like instead of giving us a flashback that tells us Lucy was levi's friend why don't we actually SEE when she became friends... at the very least we should have enough to recognize the characters pinned to the tree... otherwise it's more like "3 generic fairy tail members"

Fried, same amount of screen time i'd give the other 3... instead of giving us a flashback telling us he was relatively liked in fairy tail and that the members made an effort to get close, why don't we actually SEE some of those moments... give him the status of a background character at the very least... really just enough screentime to HINT at the fact the people tried to get close to him and that he is not same hated villain like Luxus

Loki on the otherhand, he i would want to see involved in a whole arc. Frankly, i think it might be good to have found a way to swap out Ezra for him in the Lullaby arc... when it comes down to it, Ezra did not NEED to be there and could have saved her into for the Moon Drip arc... Lullaby could have provided some decent character build up, while also laying down some subtle foreshadowing... maybe even throw him into Phantom Lord arc, instead of having Natsu get in two fights...

All in all, for the minimum amount of build up for the characters that i think i should get it, we are talking about re-writing some arcs (not necessarily making them much longer), and probably adding a couple of chapters worth of filler material... that's for the minimum and it doesn't drag things on THAT much longer (though ideally i might go for more)


but really, i don't think you can really sacrifice character development for Plot development... after all it's the characters that make the plot so dynamic; half ass the characters and you infact hurt the plot aswell... Not to mention one thing that has annoyed me is the very constant Natsu, Happy, Lucy, Gray, Ezra team up... We would be able to get a lot more exposure to other members of fairy tail if Mashima would just change that line up once in a while.
Loki wouldn't fit since he did want to be around steller spirit mages.
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Old 2009-12-22, 14:02   Link #2231
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Loki wouldn't fit since he did not want to be around steller spirit mages.
That's part of the dynamic... set it so that he's pretty much stuck with Lucy, Natsu and Gray... Hell maybe he's the one who starts things off inviting Natsu and Gray on a mission, not realizing that Natsu drags Lucy along aswell; or something like that... Loki spends most of the arc trying to keep his distance from her and disappearing anytime Lucy summons a spirit; though probably still saving her at one point... and probably at the end we have Plue, the one stellar spirit who conveniently can't talk, find Loki hiding in a corner somewhere; where we then get enough dialogue out of Loki to set up some subtle foreshadowing of things to come for him
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Old 2009-12-22, 15:44   Link #2232
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Not to mention one thing that has annoyed me is the very constant Natsu, Happy, Lucy, Gray, Ezra team up... We would be able to get a lot more exposure to other members of fairy tail if Mashima would just change that line up once in a while.
True that, although they're the main cast they get way too much time, while other characters have yet to make an appearance outside the FT bar (like Wakabe or whatever his name was, who's always hanging around with Macao). It would have been better if the author could at least cross two jobs to have the members meet in any kind of situation to develop them, instead of having them appear "already developed", with us knowing nothing about it but a few flashbacks...
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Old 2009-12-23, 09:46   Link #2233
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Wendy Charle be Fairy Tail members. That was therefore they are also in the pajama party page.
Poor Wendy. This chapter remind me on Monster Soul Touran’s past.
I like Lucy dress.
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Old 2009-12-23, 16:42   Link #2234
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Fried, same amount of screen time i'd give the other 3... instead of giving us a flashback telling us he was relatively liked in fairy tail and that the members made an effort to get close, why don't we actually SEE some of those moments... give him the status of a background character at the very least... really just enough screentime to HINT at the fact the people tried to get close to him and that he is not same hated villain like Luxus
I disagree with this one, one of the strengths of Fried was that you just weren't sure whether or not he was a good guy or a bad guy, giving him that background before his fight with Mira would have bled the tension of Elfman nearly getting killed.

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Loki on the otherhand, he i would want to see involved in a whole arc. Frankly, i think it might be good to have found a way to swap out Ezra for him in the Lullaby arc... when it comes down to it, Ezra did not NEED to be there and could have saved her into for the Moon Drip arc... Lullaby could have provided some decent character build up, while also laying down some subtle foreshadowing... maybe even throw him into Phantom Lord arc, instead of having Natsu get in two fights...
Hmm, I'd say stick to throwing him in the Phantom arc. There is no reason to re-write an entire character out of an arc when we already have a perfectly viable alternative. Plus, it saves the headache of finding a suitable alternative for Erza's introduction. Waiting until Demon Island would create a couple of plotholes that require filling.

Overall, I agree with your concerns, a bit of development in many of the scenes you pointed out would not have hurt, however I do think your suggestions for improvements are a bit on the drastic side.
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Old 2009-12-23, 18:52   Link #2235
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granted though, it suffers from something i've felt has been a common problem in fairy tail; not enough build up.
Very true. This is one area I thought the anime could improve on, having the benefit of foreknowledge. Too bad the anime's hardly worthwhile as it stands
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Old 2009-12-23, 22:35   Link #2236
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I disagree with this one, one of the strengths of Fried was that you just weren't sure whether or not he was a good guy or a bad guy, giving him that background before his fight with Mira would have bled the tension of Elfman nearly getting killed.
Disagree
As far as i saw Fried was solidly a bad guy, there was incredibly little question of it to the point where his flashback and breakdown felt like a real asspull... The ONLY indication we got was that he was hesitant to jump into killing, something he very quickly got over. Considering what he was willing to do, how badly he was willing to maim them and how everyone of his comrades were just as cruel, such hesitation is a far cry from "i actually do care about my fellow guildmates and never wanted to hurt them"

I think the proper balance would have been a few moments where the fairy tail members try to get close to him, where he then disregards them and gives them the cold shoulder... While it makes him look like a prick, it at the same time gives the slightest hint that he's not all bad as the other members do not seem to regard him with the same hostility that they give Luxus; where as what we got was the master practically shitting himself when he heard the 3 of them returned to the guild

Quote:
Hmm, I'd say stick to throwing him in the Phantom arc. There is no reason to re-write an entire character out of an arc when we already have a perfectly viable alternative. Plus, it saves the headache of finding a suitable alternative for Erza's introduction. Waiting until Demon Island would create a couple of plotholes that require filling.
When it comes down to it, Ezra's overall roll in Lullaby, and the effects that arc had in the story in the long run were minimal at best... it would have been easy to write her out

And frankly, i think the moondrip arc, with Ezra showing up to drag Natsu/grey/happy/Lucy back to the guild, would have worked fine as an intro for her

And i don't see plot holes it would create to just wait for the moondrip... only thing that happened that required ezra was her one day imprisonment by the council; and the only reason that had even the slightest significance was to establish that she knew sieg... but there are probably a hundred different ways mashima could have shown us that... hell thinking about it, that meeting in and of itself was a bit of a plot. I mean, Ezra called Sieg "evil"... however we later found out that she was aware and excepted that sieg was infact NOT gerald, and that he was his brother... if she understood that, then why did she call him "evil"? sounds to mean like mashima actually changed his mind with how he was gonna use seig/gerald mid way, and that meeting represents a small plot hole
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Old 2009-12-24, 00:43   Link #2237
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When it comes down to it, Ezra's overall roll in Lullaby, and the effects that arc had in the story in the long run were minimal at best... it would have been easy to write her out

And frankly, i think the moondrip arc, with Ezra showing up to drag Natsu/grey/happy/Lucy back to the guild, would have worked fine as an intro for her
Eh, I liked her intro in Lullaby. That was their first outing as "the strongest team." It wouldn't be the same with Galuna Island, since she arrived there in a disciplinary role.

Oh, plus, nobody but Erza could've forced Natsu and Gray onto the same team

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I mean, Ezra called Sieg "evil"... however we later found out that she was aware and excepted that sieg was infact NOT gerald, and that he was his brother... if she understood that, then why did she call him "evil"? sounds to mean like mashima actually changed his mind with how he was gonna use seig/gerald mid way, and that meeting represents a small plot hole
Sieg convinced her he was a different person, but also told her he was keeping an eye on her for his brother (ch.94 p.17). Hence, evil. It is possible that Mashima changed his mind about the specifics somewhere between Lullaby and ToP though, now that you mention it.
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Old 2009-12-24, 02:27   Link #2238
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Oh, plus, nobody but Erza could've forced Natsu and Gray onto the same team
To properly express my agreement, I quote Erza-terrified Natsu: 'Aye.'
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Old 2009-12-24, 12:09   Link #2239
Slayerx
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Oh, plus, nobody but Erza could've forced Natsu and Gray onto the same team
Eh, just about anything can be done with some good writing...
though thinking about it now, ultimately "Natsu vs Gray" thing that occurred in earlier chapters was really kind of a thrown away dynamic in that it seemed to exist for no other reason than to provide a few laughs for ONE arc... i mean, after the lullaby arc, that "we can't stand being in the same room together without fighting" mentality just dropped off the face of the earth and they converted to somewhat friendly rivals. Same goes with their fear of ezra which was more or less gone after that arc (aside from when they knew she was coming to discipline them)... all in all, what i'm saying is that i would rather Loki get some more character development before the stellar king arc, over a few good laughs
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Sieg convinced her he was a different person, but also told her he was keeping an eye on her for his brother (ch.94 p.17). Hence, evil. It is possible that Mashima changed his mind about the specifics somewhere between Lullaby and ToP though, now that you mention it.
Ah i see, i had forgotten about that... though it is rather sketchy; i mean i can understand coming up with a lie off the top of your head can be hard but that is one hell of a screw up! Might have well of said, "i'm not gerald, but i'm just as evil"

though thinking about things i may have forgotten, did Natsu have any real role in gerald's plans in the tower of paradise arc; cause i do not recall... looking back at some old chapters, i was reminded that Sieg seemed to imply that Natsu's growing strength was somehow related to his plans, but i don't recall Natsu having a role in the tower of paradise...
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Old 2009-12-25, 00:29   Link #2240
MechR
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though thinking about it now, ultimately "Natsu vs Gray" thing that occurred in earlier chapters was really kind of a thrown away dynamic in that it seemed to exist for no other reason than to provide a few laughs for ONE arc... i mean, after the lullaby arc, that "we can't stand being in the same room together without fighting" mentality just dropped off the face of the earth and they converted to somewhat friendly rivals.
I guess they found each other not as bad as previously thought, after some forced time together Plus Galuna Island (which closely followed Lullaby) may have mellowed Gray out a bit.

Quote:
Same goes with their fear of ezra which was more or less gone after that arc (aside from when they knew she was coming to discipline them)...
It lasted through Galuna Island, but then there was no time for it in Phantom Lord, and then Tower of Paradise happened, which definitely mellowed Erza out. (I miss her metal hug though... she stopped doing that too )

Quote:
all in all, what i'm saying is that i would rather Loki get some more character development before the stellar king arc, over a few good laughs
I can sympathize. I still wonder if Mashima ever plans to do anything with Kana. She's like the Tenten of Fairy Tail

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though thinking about things i may have forgotten, did Natsu have any real role in gerald's plans in the tower of paradise arc; cause i do not recall... looking back at some old chapters, i was reminded that Sieg seemed to imply that Natsu's growing strength was somehow related to his plans, but i don't recall Natsu having a role in the tower of paradise...
Nope, Gerard's plans for Natsu didn't come up during ToP. It suggests the Zeref and Dragon subplots are related though.
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