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Old 2009-12-21, 12:43   Link #561
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander 598 View Post
However from I've heard ZZ isn't actually all that bad, only a handful of bad episodes in a ~50 episode series in which, ultimately, the biggest complaint is probably bad animation. UC canon can be spotty some times but ultimately reconcilable without much problem... I don't think any Gundam (Well, I'd be willing to bet CE has done something equally bad...and 00S2 had the dumb mass suicide clone thing that comes close) has done anything as bad as forgetting they had a lengthy scene involving the spamming of optically guided SAMs and an intro featuring overpowered F22esque air superiority fighters while the following season, only a year later, has critically undersized mecha swordfighting in mid air at the speed of sound with mass charges and still trumpeting the phrase "tactics" while a fleet of flying battleships flies out of a great black acquisitions plot hole and are promptly shot down at point blank range because the concept of defensive armament is a totally alien concept to them.

That is why I can't accept it as canon. Most of the events in R2 are simply impossible when the simplest of logic (And the previous season) is applied to them, to say nothing of the sensible things that were cut out so that they could willingly not make sense. Establishing that you have some pretty damn good anti-air ability and then pretending it never happened and the like is a pretty big worthy thing to me. I guess I'm too much of a military nerd to just accept things without having to type up lengthy rants on them. If they want my future attention they better be coming up with some damn good extra material to fill in these gaping plotholes.
As much as I do love Code Geass I must say you are correct...Gundam it is not.

I'd still like to know how those Uber-fast KMFs can fly around at supersonic speeds without incuring any drag?

Perhaps in the new manga (which looks like a cross between Full Metal Alchemist and Ninja Scroll) they'll explain some of the "technology" of Code Geass?

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Originally Posted by VanityWantsYou View Post
If Lelouch and CC had a kid, I would have to say that both Lelouch AND CC would be milfs. Sorry, Lulu, but you're just so... gurly.
I assume by MILF you mean Magical Immortal Life Form...right?
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Old 2009-12-21, 12:46   Link #562
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post



I assume by MILF you mean Magical Immortal Life Form...right?
Magical Immortal Life Form Lelouch? Doesn't that sound like a mahou shoujo series to you?

... Hmm... they could have made a silly OVA like that for the new project
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Old 2009-12-21, 13:09   Link #563
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Awesomeness, but Doubt it Will be as Good as The Previous Seasons Like Lelouch of The Rebellion and R2, Well Let's Just Wait and See
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Old 2009-12-21, 17:11   Link #564
Xander
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Originally Posted by Commander 598 View Post
However from I've heard ZZ isn't actually all that bad, only a handful of bad episodes in a ~50 episode series in which, ultimately, the biggest complaint is probably bad animation.
I see you haven't watched the show yourself, which should be necessary in order to have any real debate about it, but that really depends on who you ask. There's more problems with it than just the animation though, something that isn't even a concern for me if you have to ask. I could always make a list of ZZ issues if necessary.

Quote:
UC canon can be spotty some times but ultimately reconcilable without much problem... I don't think any Gundam (Well, I'd be willing to bet CE has done something equally bad...and 00S2 had the dumb mass suicide clone thing that comes close) has done anything as bad as forgetting they had a lengthy scene involving the spamming of optically guided SAMs and an intro featuring overpowered F22esque air superiority fighters while the following season, only a year later, has critically undersized mecha swordfighting in mid air at the speed of sound with mass charges and still trumpeting the phrase "tactics" while a fleet of flying battleships flies out of a great black acquisitions plot hole and are promptly shot down at point blank range because the concept of defensive armament is a totally alien concept to them.
In that case you should argue that Gundam 0083 probably isn't canon either, if technological inconsistencies that either retcon something or go past the limits of previously established technologies are such a big problem for you. To tell you the truth, consistent mechanical engineering and realistic military doctrines are not the primary reason I watch Code Geass or any other mecha show for that matter. That's, at best, optional icing on the cake and not essential to my own enjoyment. I realize it is rather important to yours though, so I understand your point.

But even the likes of Legend of the Galactic Heroes, which clearly does a far better job with its politics and logistics, presents scenarios that would be physically impossible and some tactical or strategic decisions that wouldn't apply to any space battle we could conceivably set up in reality. Anime, as a medium, can be quite whimsical.

Not to mention that I don't think there was a lot of swordfighting in R2 either, but even in that case we already had a clearly established precedent via the MVS swords used by the Lancelot since early season one. In this particular area, that's hardly a big leap and doesn't really cause any actual problems in terms of consistency.

For me, canon isn't so much a question of technology or out-of-universe plausibility but of internal storytelling.

If R2 lacked its pacing and storytelling problems but had exactly the same technologies at work, perhaps with a little bit of additional technical detail and exposition due to having more time for it, this alone would be enough for me. You could set up some better battles, tactically and strategically speaking, but it would still be a matter of playing with the same set of toys.

I imagine any new Geass production will only address these technological concerns if it is aimed towards an older demographic that will appreciate them. If not, because your average anime viewer doesn't, then we might see some interesting backstory or plot details but probably very little in terms of what you're asking for (better science, tech and so on). Maybe we could get the best/worst of both worlds too, I guess, if there's a combined approach.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-12-21 at 17:35.
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Old 2009-12-21, 19:29   Link #565
Commander 598
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Quote:
In that case you should argue that Gundam 0083 probably isn't canon either, if technological inconsistencies that either retcon something or go past the limits of previously established technologies are such a big problem for you.
However, 0083 actually did make a plausible excuse (Dead men tell no tales is an old one...) for it and how advanced these three deleted Gundams were is rather debatable given that it's only truly apparent in secondary materials and things like panoramic cockpits were already around in the OYW as can be seen in the NT-1 Alex of 0080.

Quote:
But even the likes of Legend of the Galactic Heroes, which clearly does a far better job with its politics and logistics, presents scenarios that would be physically impossible and some tactical or strategic decisions that wouldn't apply to any space battle we could conceivably set up in reality.
However one must keep in mind that we don't have the ~700 year long laundry list of differences that LoGH has setting it up. For example, heavily armored axe bearing space marines did not come about simply on a whim but because the two Powers started pumping a highly flammable particle into the decks of their ships that cooks off like an FAE it gets ignited. In R2 we have an excuse for why there are more float systems but what we don't get is an excuse for how everyone is getting shot down given that only a tiny handful had fancy particle shields like Lancelot.

Quote:
Not to mention that I don't think there was a lot of swordfighting in R2 either, but even in that case we already had a clearly established precedent via the MVS swords used by the Lancelot since early season one. In this particular area, that's hardly a big leap and doesn't really cause any actual problems in terms of consistency.
Perhaps it's not really so much a matter of quantity but rather quality which is the sticking point. It's one thing to have swords, you can make a dozen passable excuses for that, but then when you start having things like the Galahad your attention may suddenly shift to the road sign reading: OBVIOUSCRAPPYGIMMICK Rd.

Quote:
For me, canon isn't so much a question of technology or out-of-universe plausibility but of internal storytelling.
What I'm getting at is that it's not really a matter of the technology but that everyone basically becomes retarded in the span of a year and basically loses any competency they once had. For example: the Britannian D-Day rip off battle with the EU. Not only do we have Schneizel, the TACTICAL MASTERMIND AND ONLY PERSON WHO COULD EVER OUT THINK LELOUCH, ordering the tactical atrocity called The Forever Failed Frontal Assault with absolutely ZERO air or fire support from the entire carrier group sitting about a mile away but we also have the EU perched on a the high ground not even floating the possibility of sinking said carrier group via air or artillery support. It's not even a complicated thing "Big target over there, why aren't we shooting big target?". So infuriating given that we have things like Cornelia (Who speaking of which was reduced to the position of Schneizel's parrot for most of R2) flanking enemy defensive positions while under cover from her own heavy artillery fire amongst other numerous examples in the first season.

Quote:
If R2 lacked its pacing and storytelling problems but had exactly the same technologies at work, perhaps with a little bit of additional technical detail and exposition due to having more time for it, this alone would be enough for me. You could set up some better battles, tactically and strategically speaking, but it would still be a matter of playing with the same set of toys.
If you remove the plot induced stupidity you would likely end up with some different toys. If you start sticking AA guns on your airships you suddenly find that the enemy can't just fly right up to them and destroy them. Or, BRILLIANT IDEA, an aircraft with engines the size of a KMF (Actually in most fighters the engines make up everything behind the cockpit except the wings as you can see here from the air intake up next to the cockpit thus actually making them several times larger.)
is actually not going to be worse at flying than a KMF.

Quote:
I imagine any new Geass production will only address these technological concerns if it is aimed towards an older demographic that will appreciate them. If not, because your average anime viewer doesn't, then we might see some interesting backstory or plot details but probably very little in terms of what you're asking for (better science, tech and so on). Maybe we could get the best/worst of both worlds too, I guess, if there's a combined approach.
After watching several Sunrise produced series fall apart in their second season I've become a pessimist on the subject. Assume the worst is going to happen. Low expectations are easier to handle than high ones.
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Old 2009-12-21, 20:30   Link #566
Rising Dragon
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You know, if you have such low expectations for new Geass stuff, why do you even bother coming here?
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Old 2009-12-21, 20:48   Link #567
Xander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander 598 View Post
However, 0083 actually did make a plausible excuse (Dead men tell no tales is an old one...) for it and how advanced these three deleted Gundams were is rather debatable given that it's only truly apparent in secondary materials and things like panoramic cockpits were already around in the OYW as can be seen in the NT-1 Alex of 0080.
Leaving aside the issue that 0080 itself and things like the MSV series might also qualify as retcons made well after the fact, can you really do that for every other piece of technology though?

See the Neue Ziel or the GP03 Dendrobium for example. I honestly didn't find it very convincing and the only reason I don't make a big deal about it is my lack of enthusiasm (and technical skill) for digging deep into the subject.

Quote:
In R2 we have an excuse for why there are more float systems but what we don't get is an excuse for how everyone is getting shot down given that only a tiny handful had fancy particle shields like Lancelot.
While I think the larger point still applies, I suppose that's true as long as there isn't something in a future or current untranslated publication that tells us otherwise.

Quote:
What I'm getting at is that it's not really a matter of the technology but that everyone basically becomes retarded in the span of a year and basically loses any competency they once had. For example: the Britannian D-Day rip off battle with the EU. Not only do we have Schneizel, the TACTICAL MASTERMIND AND ONLY PERSON WHO COULD EVER OUT THINK LELOUCH, ordering the tactical atrocity called The Forever Failed Frontal Assault with absolutely ZERO air or fire support from the entire carrier group sitting about a mile away but we also have the EU perched on a the high ground not even floating the possibility of sinking said carrier group via air or artillery support. It's not even a complicated thing "Big target over there, why aren't we shooting big target?". So infuriating given that we have things like Cornelia (Who speaking of which was reduced to the position of Schneizel's parrot for most of R2) flanking enemy defensive positions while under cover from her own heavy artillery fire amongst other numerous examples in the first season.
I suppose the staff felt that scene wasn't too important or, alternatively, they cut something from the script when it was animated. If they ever make a new OVA that deals with the subject, hypothetically speaking, they might retcon some or all of the battle (Gundam itself has done that a few times) or just have something else happen off-screen in order to semi-justify the show's version of the events as some sort of artistic license.

Quote:
If you remove the plot induced stupidity you would likely end up with some different toys.
Perhaps, but unless the staff intentionally decides to pay attention to that area, you could end up with better written characters that, nevertheless, still pilot overpowered robots and make poor tactical or strategic decisions.

Quote:
After watching several Sunrise produced series fall apart in their second season I've become a pessimist on the subject. Assume the worst is going to happen. Low expectations are easier to handle than high ones.
I might not be as harsh as you in this particular case, that hasn't changed, but your position is logical enough.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-12-21 at 21:06.
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Old 2009-12-21, 21:24   Link #568
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This forum, I believe, is for people who ENJOY Code Geass and are fans of it. I understand that fans can criticize, but no one should just write posts about how they have such low expectations of the series and flame it. If you want to write horrible things about the show, go do it in a thread specifically FOR Code Geass haters.

Really, I don't focus on what's wrong with a series unless it's horribly obvious like a really stupid and cliche plot. Code Geass kept me interested, had a very strong plot, had amazing characters, and was just a strong anime. One of the best. I wasn't bored like I usually get with most series these days.
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Old 2009-12-21, 22:39   Link #569
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I'm sorry did I stumble onto the wrong board here? Why is everybody talking about Gundam?

Also good point on why people come to a board just to talk about how low their expectations are on a show and how much they think it's going to fail compared to their pet favourite show. Interesting the different ways people choose to spend their time isn't it? I realize that this board will never be free from bitching about Sunrise and Code Geass R2 and whatever people think is a "trainwreck", "horrible writing", "worst writing", "plot holes" whatever, but it'd be nice for there to be a brief period of reprieve for those who do like these shows don't you all think?

Anyway bitching endlessly about Code Geass R2 and thread shitting it's forums seems to have become a been there done that affair with the release of Final Fantasy XIII. Now all signs point to that as the new troll target du jour. If it can provide cover fire enough and Sunrise can sneak this new project out while it's being released in North America who's to say that the Code Geass forum experience might not actually become enjoyable again like the good old days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
I see you haven't watched the show yourself, which should be necessary in order to have any real debate about it, but that really depends on who you ask. There's more problems with it than just the animation though, something that isn't even a concern for me if you have to ask. I could always make a list of ZZ issues if necessary.



In that case you should argue that Gundam 0083 probably isn't canon either, if technological inconsistencies that either retcon something or go past the limits of previously established technologies are such a big problem for you. To tell you the truth, consistent mechanical engineering and realistic military doctrines are not the primary reason I watch Code Geass or any other mecha show for that matter. That's, at best, optional icing on the cake and not essential to my own enjoyment. I realize it is rather important to yours though, so I understand your point.

But even the likes of Legend of the Galactic Heroes, which clearly does a far better job with its politics and logistics, presents scenarios that would be physically impossible and some tactical or strategic decisions that wouldn't apply to any space battle we could conceivably set up in reality. Anime, as a medium, can be quite whimsical.

Not to mention that I don't think there was a lot of swordfighting in R2 either, but even in that case we already had a clearly established precedent via the MVS swords used by the Lancelot since early season one. In this particular area, that's hardly a big leap and doesn't really cause any actual problems in terms of consistency.

For me, canon isn't so much a question of technology or out-of-universe plausibility but of internal storytelling.

If R2 lacked its pacing and storytelling problems but had exactly the same technologies at work, perhaps with a little bit of additional technical detail and exposition due to having more time for it, this alone would be enough for me. You could set up some better battles, tactically and strategically speaking, but it would still be a matter of playing with the same set of toys.

I imagine any new Geass production will only address these technological concerns if it is aimed towards an older demographic that will appreciate them. If not, because your average anime viewer doesn't, then we might see some interesting backstory or plot details but probably very little in terms of what you're asking for (better science, tech and so on). Maybe we could get the best/worst of both worlds too, I guess, if there's a combined approach.
Best attempt to provide a balanced argument on Code Geass and it's technology I've seen in a long time. Beats the hell out of the "it sucks and here's why....." flavoured posts I'm so used to (and tired of) seeing everytime somebody thinks they know what the words critique and review mean.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2009-12-21 at 22:58.
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Old 2009-12-21, 22:50   Link #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I'm sorry did I stumble onto the wrong board here? Why is everybody talking about Gundam?
Which is why I asked earlier if his was a discussion about the subject of this thread or a Generic Discussion. But no one seems to want to stay on topic, and I have no control over it, so I'm not going to fight it.
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Old 2009-12-21, 23:34   Link #571
Xander
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I've tried to at least slightly shift the focus of those off-topic discussions towards whatever new Code Geass projects are en route and the possibilities they might provide, but perhaps this wouldn't be necessary if we had something to talk about instead of just going over that one magazine article dealing with the upcoming manga.

I don't really want to discuss Gundam at length here, honestly, but sometimes those issues should be addressed.
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Old 2009-12-22, 00:13   Link #572
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R3 should be a movie, and it should be directed by Tomino.
You know the drill.
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Old 2009-12-22, 07:23   Link #573
mechalord
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That's actually an appropriate comparison...but it also illustrates how, for example, the second disc of Xenogears still had enough interesting elements and any disappointment I felt stopped short of automatically dismissing the whole thing. You're free to disagree, of course, but I think it's better to salvage what we can.



That really depends on what you mean by "story" because, as far as Lelouch's rise and fall is concerned, which was the story's main topic and theme, things did go in one direction. You can easily see a predictable progression in that respect without too much trouble.



There's a few points of note here that should at least be mentioned.

One is the question of whether or not the forgotten past of Geass is relevant to Lelouch's story as whole.

From the perspective of having a tighter script and using good storytelling it should have been, admittedly, but that was not an inherent necessity in and of itself as far as Lelouch's personal drama is concerned. Which is probably why it was never elaborated upon too much.

It should also be mentioned that Taniguchi, the director, likes to keep certain things vague and mysterious, open to viewer interpretation, as seen in several of his previous shows.

In other words, expecting that there would be a full set of revelations and explicit descriptions about the history of Geass was probably nothing more than wishful thinking because that's not part of his style and it wasn't the central aspect of the story. Even without R2's rush, I don't think that would have changed.

Another one would be the fact that the Geass Cult was based in China and, as rushed as its related developments were, we did learn about C.C.'s past in the process. Not enough, some might argue, but more than what little we knew beforehand.



I'm not sure you can extrapolate that when we never see or hear about any other modern government, outside of Britannia, being interested in C.C. or Geass as a whole. Likewise, it's possible to interpret those flashbacks in several different ways, depending on your perspective. It's hard to tell.



Milly's family did have some interesting connections, related to Marianne and past events, but they were never portrayed as too active in terms of the larger plot. Milly's arranged marriage to Lloyd was the only area where we ever saw the (implicit) results of their influence and that was resolved early in R2.

I think I've talked about Kallen's father and/or family before, but the reasoning would be similar enough.



Along the same lines of what I just wrote and going by the available interviews...I would say that if you asked Okouchi or Taniguchi if "the background behind the power" was the "most important part of the franchise" they would probably say "no" because it was all about the character drama surrounding Lelouch.



I think this was touched upon, briefly, in one of the picture dramas. I'm not going to argue that it's not avoided in a rather sloppy fashion during the actual show though, but it can still be rationalized.

The geass cult wasn't based in China, the one Lelouch destroyed. Remember, this is where they found VV and Charles.

C.C's time in China was first divulged by Mao. She was taken from the Brittanian (or she ran away) and she wound up in Chinese custody and taking care of a kid named Mao.

We also were teased when CC and Suzaku mind melded. CC was dreaming. She was talking about having some love one taken from her. Suzaku got a glimpse into her history. She's been through wars and all that.


Kallen, in the first season, was presented as a girl of dual identities. Milly, a girl focused on one day regaining her families peerage, was impressed by Kallen's pedigree. It was hinted her family was powerful and of nobility. In R2, Kallen's Brittanian heritage is thrown out the window. They even crowd controlled her character to get her out of the way for half the season. It's like she was going to have a bigger role but that would have taken too much time, so they just stuck her in a plastic tube to get her out of the way for a big chunk of season. And then they gave her the epilogue and victories over Suzaku and CC in battle.


Let's get back to the storytelling. Season one covers Zero's glorious rise to fame as the leader of a Japanese resistance group. His meteoric rise to Che Guevara like stature is covered along with his last moment, erratic behavior. It takes him a good while to get to the top in the first season. In R2, he becomes an international coalition commander overnight from nothing. He does1000 times what he did in S1 with less people, less money, less time, and more people looking over his shoulder. His rise in R2 handle rather sloppily. Brittannia goes from being this overbearing and iron fisted juggernaut to a JOKE. Let's not forget that a huge chunk of R2 is devoted to Lelouch's fake life at "Hogwartz" keeping up appearances and his tumultuous friendship with Shirley. A sidestory not integral to the "rise and fall" of Lelouch eats up a quarter of the season while the final battle between his greatest rival, Schneizel, and his baby sister takes up 2 episodes.
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Old 2009-12-22, 07:35   Link #574
Rising Dragon
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Hey guys! Let's go back in time for a little bit, to the very first post!

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Originally Posted by TrueElements View Post
Moderators Note: Purpose of this thread is to discuss about your expectation, speculation, and to add to any new information the fans come to find out. Everyone also needs to keep in mind that at no point can anyone cross the personal territories in any manner where another poster will be made uncomfortable by a comment.
What's this?? It looks like the purpose of this thread is to discuss the new Code Geass projects! Not what you're doing, which is discussing (and in some cases, even whining!) about Code Geass R2!

What a surprise!

...

Now that I have your attention, please get back on topic because I and many others are sick and tired of seeing more "Why I dislike CGR2" in a thread where it doesn't belong.
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Old 2009-12-22, 11:14   Link #575
Xander
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mechalord: I think some of your complaints are valid but others are still phrased in ways that I consider too harsh and exaggerated, overlooking certain relevant details. In any event, going back to the actual purpose of this thread, I hope that whatever future Geass projects are in the works either avoid those problems or, if possible, provide at least some of the information that was missing from R2. Not much else I can say.
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Old 2009-12-22, 11:27   Link #576
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Please do not reply to off-topic posts or comments (in this thread at least). If you wish to reply to any off-topic comment then please use a Private or Visitor Message.

Including any part of an off-topic discussion in your own post may well get the entire post deleted.

Reminder:
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Purpose of this thread is to discuss about your expectation, speculation, and to add to any new information the fans come to find out. Everyone also needs to keep in mind that at no point can anyone cross the personal territories in any manner where another poster will be made uncomfortable by a comment.
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Old 2009-12-23, 06:09   Link #577
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Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
The geass cult wasn't based in China, the one Lelouch destroyed. Remember, this is where they found VV and Charles.

C.C's time in China was first divulged by Mao. She was taken from the Brittanian (or she ran away) and she wound up in Chinese custody and taking care of a kid named Mao.

We also were teased when CC and Suzaku mind melded. CC was dreaming. She was talking about having some love one taken from her. Suzaku got a glimpse into her history. She's been through wars and all that.


Kallen, in the first season, was presented as a girl of dual identities. Milly, a girl focused on one day regaining her families peerage, was impressed by Kallen's pedigree. It was hinted her family was powerful and of nobility. In R2, Kallen's Brittanian heritage is thrown out the window. They even crowd controlled her character to get her out of the way for half the season. It's like she was going to have a bigger role but that would have taken too much time, so they just stuck her in a plastic tube to get her out of the way for a big chunk of season. And then they gave her the epilogue and victories over Suzaku and CC in battle.


Let's get back to the storytelling. Season one covers Zero's glorious rise to fame as the leader of a Japanese resistance group. His meteoric rise to Che Guevara like stature is covered along with his last moment, erratic behavior. It takes him a good while to get to the top in the first season. In R2, he becomes an international coalition commander overnight from nothing. He does1000 times what he did in S1 with less people, less money, less time, and more people looking over his shoulder. His rise in R2 handle rather sloppily. Brittannia goes from being this overbearing and iron fisted juggernaut to a JOKE. Let's not forget that a huge chunk of R2 is devoted to Lelouch's fake life at "Hogwartz" keeping up appearances and his tumultuous friendship with Shirley. A sidestory not integral to the "rise and fall" of Lelouch eats up a quarter of the season while the final battle between his greatest rival, Schneizel, and his baby sister takes up 2 episodes.
Hi Mechalord,
This was a suggestion that I had pointed out to Mr. Taniguchi in my letter to him. I always felt that the original version for Code Geass R2 could be remade into Code Geass S2, that picks up the story where Stage 25 of Season One left off.

It's probably better for the staff to retell the entire Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebelion as an original manga or light novel, written directly by Mr. Okuchi, the Co-Creator of the series.

It's clear that the new Code Geass Project might address this problem by remaking Season 2 in the original format as Season One.
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Old 2009-12-23, 10:17   Link #578
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Lovely, my comment got deleted because I replied to a comment that was relevant to what the discussion was about BEFORE it turned into people being haters. Eh, whatever.

A remake of season 2 would be very interesting :0 I do also like the light novel or manga idea, but once again... the whole big thing about the anime is how the music and characters set up the surprises that are to come. I personally can't read a manga of an anime I just watched and know what will happen, or even read a manga about an anime where surprises are a key element to the story. Manga, no matter how creative or amazing, don't surprise me D:
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Old 2009-12-25, 20:26   Link #579
Anime Daisuki
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This had better not be a spin off.
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Old 2009-12-25, 22:10   Link #580
morbosfist
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That would depend on your definition of spinoff. "Same universe, different time" certainly fits the bill.
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