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Old 2004-08-11, 13:50   Link #1
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
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Moral question about Sasuke. [Manga]

I have a question.
Firstly lets make this clear.
THIS IS NOT A SASUKE VS NARUTO THREAD. DO NOT START ARGUING ABOUT WHY YOU HATE NARUTO OR SASUKE.

Im intersted in finding out what peoples opinion on this is.


Itachi killed his clan because Itachi only cares about power. Undoubtedly the massacre of his clan was driven by something to do with his own inner questions. To resolve those questions and prove things to himself, he didnt mind killing everybody close to him.

Simply put, Itachi doest care about anything but himself.

Now lets look at sasuke in the current manga chapters.

Sasuke has decided that killing Itachi is everything.

He cannot kill itachi until he gets stronger. In order to get stronger, Sasuke is willing to kill his best friend. He is willing to end the life of someone he cares for, simply to gain power, and fulfil his own selfish goal of revenge.

Where then I ask, is the difference between Itachi and Sasuke?

Sasuke has now become another Itachi to a degree.

Think about it.
Sasuke is only justified in seeking revenge on itachi, if sasuke himself reamins "The better of the two"

What is the point of an Evil-Man-A seeking revenge on Evil-Man-B for the sins Evil-Man-B commited in the past, when Evil-Man-A himself is now willing to commit those very same sins to gain what he wants?

I hope im not too deep with that ^^

Also another intersting question.

It seems that these memories sasuke is now having, are long buried memories. Itachi forced them out of him when he Mange'd him. The question is this.

Sasuke is now trying to kill Naruto, BUT that is essentially because naruto is the one who followed him and wont leave him alone.

Essentially naruto is standing in the way of Sasukes goals. In that light sasuke is justified in killing Naruto.

However, do you think that sasuke would ever SEEK OUT Naruto to kill him? Like lets say hes training with Oro, and Oro tells him "Youll never beat itachi unless you gain mange sharingan"
Do you think sasuke will actually go looking for naruto to kill him? Or is he trying to kill him now, only because naruto is the one hounding him?
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Old 2004-08-11, 14:07   Link #2
CD365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
I have a question.
Firstly lets make this clear.
THIS IS NOT A SASUKE VS NARUTO THREAD. DO NOT START ARGUING ABOUT WHY YOU HATE NARUTO OR SASUKE.

Im intersted in finding out what peoples opinion on this is.


Itachi killed his clan because Itachi only cares about power. Undoubtedly the massacre of his clan was driven by something to do with his own inner questions. To resolve those questions and prove things to himself, he didnt mind killing everybody close to him.

Simply put, Itachi doest care about anything but himself.

Now lets look at sasuke in the current manga chapters.

Sasuke has decided that killing Itachi is everything.

He cannot kill itachi until he gets stronger. In order to get stronger, Sasuke is willing to kill his best friend. He is willing to end the life of someone he cares for, simply to gain power, and fulfil his own selfish goal of revenge.

Where then I ask, is the difference between Itachi and Sasuke?

Sasuke has now become another Itachi to a degree.

Think about it.
Sasuke is only justified in seeking revenge on itachi, if sasuke himself reamins "The better of the two"

What is the point of an Evil-Man-A seeking revenge on Evil-Man-B for the sins Evil-Man-B commited in the past, when Evil-Man-A himself is now willing to commit those very same sins to gain what he wants?

I hope im not too deep with that ^^

Also another intersting question.

It seems that these memories sasuke is now having, are long buried memories. Itachi forced them out of him when he Mange'd him. The question is this.

Sasuke is now trying to kill Naruto, BUT that is essentially because naruto is the one who followed him and wont leave him alone.

Essentially naruto is standing in the way of Sasukes goals. In that light sasuke is justified in killing Naruto.

However, do you think that sasuke would ever SEEK OUT Naruto to kill him? Like lets say hes training with Oro, and Oro tells him "Youll never beat itachi unless you gain mange sharingan"
Do you think sasuke will actually go looking for naruto to kill him? Or is he trying to kill him now, only because naruto is the one hounding him?

Yes I think you've made some valid conclusions. In fact I think it's obvious that driving Sasuke to any length to kill him was his plan from the beginning anyway. If Sasuke did kill Naruto and all of his friends to gain power, why would he even care about revenge by the time he meets up with Itachi? He would have nothing left, nothing to return to after Itachi is gone. If Sasuke kills Naruto, he is killing the only thing he has left after the massacre of his family. Hopefully Naruto can knock some sense into him!
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Old 2004-08-11, 14:08   Link #3
Rurouni Zeke
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These are good questions. I would have to say that Sasuke has become like Itachi now, regardless of whether he was going to let Naruto go. Itachi let Sasuke go, didn't he? The guy doesn't have to be a maniac to be evil. I think that Sasuke is supposed to become like Itachi, so that when he does get his revenge he will see that he became the very thing he hated. It's like Kishimoto is setting up a lesson to be learned.

If it's just a question of morality (with no other factors involved), I would say yes, Sasuke would want to seek Naruto to kill him. Sasuke has already made up his mind to do whatever it takes to kill Itachi. If he has to find and kill Naruto, he will find and kill Naruto. However, Naruto is right in front of Sasuke right now, and he gave Naruto a chance to leave. Naruto did not leave, so Sasuke is undoubtedly trying to kill him now so that he doesn't have to worry about tracking him down later.
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Old 2004-08-11, 14:32   Link #4
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurouni Zeke
I think that Sasuke is supposed to become like Itachi, so that when he does get his revenge he will see that he became the very thing he hated. It's like Kishimoto is setting up a lesson to be learned.

Yup. Nice way of putting it.

Basically, sasuke would become a HERO. The utlimate avenger of his clan if --- He is willing to throw away his life in order to avenge his clan. It is the ultimate self sacrifice. In other words, sasuke doesnt care if he has no friends or family. All he wants is to avenge his clan.

However,

Sasuke is no longer a hero, a person to be admired if he is willin to sacrifice more than himself.

Its all good if your goin to sacrifice your life to avenge your clan. Its noble.
However its a whole different matter if your going to sacrifice the lives of other people in order to avenge your clan.

It makes you just as bad as the person your trying to punish.
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Old 2004-08-11, 14:37   Link #5
abazou
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Actually i think Sasuke would kill himself after killing Itachi.
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Old 2004-08-11, 14:39   Link #6
fieryshadowcard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
I have a question.
Firstly lets make this clear.
THIS IS NOT A SASUKE VS NARUTO THREAD. DO NOT START ARGUING ABOUT WHY YOU HATE NARUTO OR SASUKE.

Im intersted in finding out what peoples opinion on this is.


Itachi killed his clan because Itachi only cares about power. Undoubtedly the massacre of his clan was driven by something to do with his own inner questions. To resolve those questions and prove things to himself, he didnt mind killing everybody close to him.

Simply put, Itachi doest care about anything but himself.

Now lets look at sasuke in the current manga chapters.

Sasuke has decided that killing Itachi is everything.

He cannot kill itachi until he gets stronger. In order to get stronger, Sasuke is willing to kill his best friend. He is willing to end the life of someone he cares for, simply to gain power, and fulfil his own selfish goal of revenge.

Where then I ask, is the difference between Itachi and Sasuke?

Sasuke has now become another Itachi to a degree.

Think about it.
Sasuke is only justified in seeking revenge on itachi, if sasuke himself reamins "The better of the two"

What is the point of an Evil-Man-A seeking revenge on Evil-Man-B for the sins Evil-Man-B commited in the past, when Evil-Man-A himself is now willing to commit those very same sins to gain what he wants?

I hope im not too deep with that ^^

Also another intersting question.

It seems that these memories sasuke is now having, are long buried memories. Itachi forced them out of him when he Mange'd him. The question is this.

Sasuke is now trying to kill Naruto, BUT that is essentially because naruto is the one who followed him and wont leave him alone.

Essentially naruto is standing in the way of Sasukes goals. In that light sasuke is justified in killing Naruto.

However, do you think that sasuke would ever SEEK OUT Naruto to kill him? Like lets say hes training with Oro, and Oro tells him "Youll never beat itachi unless you gain mange sharingan"
Do you think sasuke will actually go looking for naruto to kill him? Or is he trying to kill him now, only because naruto is the one hounding him?
The morality of Sasuke... an interesting topic. There are multiple ways to look at it. Of course, whether or not it should be deemed morality or ethics is also a concern.

In terms of being willing to do anything to gain the power necessary to kill Itachi, if one were to look at it morally, Sasuke would be rather immoral. Seeking out the most desperate powers, even if they are evil, is another way of saying he's selling his soul to get what he wants. Looking at it that way from a moral aspect, I'd say he's in the wrong. However, looking at it from an ethical aspect, it can be argued that it's his body so he can do whatever he wants with it. Of course, when others have to pay unwillingly for his gain (ie. a possible Second Konoha Crash), then it becomes wrong both ethically and morally.

In that regard, Naruto is justified in
Spoiler:


More so than being immoral, I'd say Sasuke is unethical. He's quick to say that he doesn't want to see his comrades die in front of him, but then he's also quick to decide that
Spoiler:


Betrayal, hypocrisy, and unjustified killing are all immoral, but that's a sin-based system. Looking at it from an ethical standpoint, it has to be evaluated differently before it can be deemed either right/justified or wrong/unjustified.

-Yusef "The B.A.T" Pittman
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Old 2004-08-11, 14:42   Link #7
Last of the Uchiha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

It makes you just as bad as the person your trying to punish.

Don't you think Sasuke already knows that. Didn't he tell us that he would plunge into darkness in order to killed his brother. I don't think there would be a life for Sasuke after he kills or die with his brother. He will take his brother with him, and at the same time, pay with his life what he did wrong to others. -
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Old 2004-08-11, 14:43   Link #8
VMLM3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
Where then I ask, is the difference between Itachi and Sasuke?

Sasuke has now become another Itachi to a degree.
The difference between Sasuke and Itachi is that Sasuke does what he does out of hatred, he doesn't want power simply to have power, he wants power to kill Itachi. Not only that Sasuke hasn't gone on a killing spree yet. This is important, first off because Sasuke has always known he had to kill someone close to him to obtain the power of the mange sharingan, but also because it proves Sasuke isn't a murderous mad man (or wasn't before he obtained the level 2 curse seal). Itachi didn't hesitate to kill his friend, and he murderd his entire clan just to prove to himself he could do it, Sasuke didn't.
I still think there is more to Itachi than we know though. Sasuke says in one of the latest chapters that his brother changed drastically before he went on his killing spree, maybe something changed him like the curse seal changed Sasuke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
What is the point of an Evil-Man-A seeking revenge on Evil-Man-B for the sins Evil-Man-B commited in the past, when Evil-Man-A himself is now willing to commit those very same sins to gain what he wants?
You have the right idea, but you're looking at it the wrong way (sorry if that sounds condecending, trying not too). Think of what would happen if Sasuke realized this, that if he killed Naruto there would be no difference between himself and the person he wants to kill.

About your last question Wolf, I don't think Sasuke would've seeked Naruto out in order to kill him before the encounter with Itachi, but he cracked after that. His desperate need for power after that drove him to accept the level 2 curse seal, which has driven him even deeper into that hatered that drives him. Not only that, now that we know the secret to obtaining the Mangekyou Sharingan I've been wandering if killing Naruto wasn't what Sasuke had in mind when he challenged him to the fight on the Hospital roof.

Apart from that, I don't think Sasuke can see beyond killing his brother, it's the driving force of his life.
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Old 2004-08-11, 14:47   Link #9
tramadrama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
THIS IS NOT A SASUKE VS NARUTO THREAD. DO NOT START ARGUING ABOUT WHY YOU HATE NARUTO OR SASUKE.
LOL smart for saying that, but you know it may become inevitable. Anyway, you did bring up some good points and questions. Sasuke isn't a lost cause, it's not too late. I do not think that he will become another Itachi. I do not think that he is even going to meet the goal of killing Itachi, but I do think that whatever lesson Sasuke is going to learn, will revolve around the current fight between Naruto and Sasuke. If it happens like a lot of people say, when he "kills" Naruto, it will come back to haunt him. It will be the turning point to fix anything immoral that may have happened. We just got to keep looking underneath the underneath.
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Old 2004-08-11, 14:59   Link #10
yinstro
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i agree that sasuke has lost sight of hois morals.Basically if he really is serious about his current path, he is no different from itachi. because he will end up
Spoiler:
the parallels are obvious i cant believe sasuke doesnt see them. Or maybe he does but he doesnt care. That would mean that him killing Itachi isnt really about Itachi being evil, or destroying what he loved, But in fact only about killing Itachi, nothing moral nothing emotional merely his only real care or goal. The second doesnt seem likely, unless he is now a sociopath. But yeah sasuke has lost his right to call himself a hero if he hurts an innocent in pursuit of his goal. Really i think he should just ask Itachi for training, Itachi doesnt seem to have a problem with encouraging him to become strong enough to be a threat.
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Old 2004-08-11, 15:32   Link #11
Last of the Uchiha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yinstro
i agree that sasuke has lost sight of hois morals.Basically if he really is serious about his current path, he is no different from itachi. because he will end up
Spoiler:
the parallels are obvious i cant believe sasuke doesnt see them. Or maybe he does but he doesnt care. That would mean that him killing Itachi isnt really about Itachi being evil, or destroying what he loved, But in fact only about killing Itachi, nothing moral nothing emotional merely his only real care or goal. The second doesnt seem likely, unless he is now a sociopath. But yeah sasuke has lost his right to call himself a hero if he hurts an innocent in pursuit of his goal. Really i think he should just ask Itachi for training, Itachi doesnt seem to have a problem with encouraging him to become strong enough to be a threat.

I don't think Sasuke has ever called himself or thought of himself as a Hero, but an Avenger, which there is a big difference. Nobody in the series has ever called him a hero, much less the fans of this series.
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Old 2004-08-11, 16:20   Link #12
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
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Some good arguments here but last of uchiha you dont quite see what im asking.

I know that sasuke has said he will plunge into darkness to kill itachi.

I know he does what he does out of hatred. Not because of power.

But the question is this.

How can you claim to hate something so passionately and yet you have become the very thing that you hate.

Sasuke might as well slit his own throat on the spot because he is becoming a walking manifestation of the very thing that he hates so much.

How can he justify killing itachi in the name of revenge when he himself is commiting the very same types of crimes that he is so eager to deal justice against?

In other words, has sasukes vengence become an issue of ;

- Avenging the innocent lives lost in his clan at the hands of his evil brother.
or
- He doesnt care about the uchihas itachi killed. He just wants itachi dead becaue it has become a matter of vedetta and not avenging.
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Old 2004-08-11, 16:21   Link #13
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Well, if i where to steal a quote from Nietzche, what if the only way to defeat a monster, is to become it? I think that Sasuke is aware of the fact that he is becoming another Itachi, i just don't think he cares. He is willing to sell his soul to quench his thirst for vengeance.And he knows that killing itachi won't make him happy, he knows that it won't make him feel any better, evidenced by his conversation with Sakura before he left the village. It's just that he doesn't care about it. If becoming a monster is what it takes to defeat Itachi, then that's what Sasuke will do. There is still a glimmer of hope left for him, but unless someone kicks some sense into him, he will lose himself to the abyss he was so close to escaping.

To answer your question more directly, IF Sasuke actually goes through with the murder, then he WILL be no better than Itachi. He will have sacrificed the life of a good friend for nothing more than power. Neither his motives nor his ends justify the means. You asked what the point was for A to kill B if A =B. The answer is that A is doing it for himself, and nothing more. He is doing it in the vain hope that it will put his raging anger to a rest. He isn't doing it for the greater good. And if he causes people the same grief he himself experienced, then so be it. Selfish and hippocritical maybe, but that's what Sasuke feels, at the moment at least.
Granted, Itachi killed alot more people and caused alot more damage than Sasuke if he goes through with the deed, but Sasuke will still be doing it for himself. And when that is done, he will no longer have a reason to live. He will be empty and hollow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
How can he justify killing itachi in the name of revenge when he himself is commiting the type of crimes which he sees fit to deal justice against?
The answer is, He can't. But neither does he try to. He doesn't give a flying donkey about right or wrong, or if what he is doing is justifiable. All he wants, all he needs, all he craves is to see Itachi's head on a spike, to feel his blood staining his hands and to hear his last laboured breath. He is currently breathing, eating and drinking anger, and that is the only goal (in his mind) worth pursuing, consequenses be damned. At first, maybe he was doing it to bring justice to Itachi, and for the sake of his fellow clanmates, But now, it's just for the sake of anger and revenge.
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Old 2004-08-11, 17:03   Link #14
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
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Let me put it in more conventional terms so you see what I mean.

Lets I came to your house and shot your parents dead.

You hate me so much and you want revenge.

But you never get the chance to kill me.

Then one day you see me walk into a bus full of people.

You are a few hundred feet back and you have a bazooka in your hand. This is your chance to kill me.

It us your "Easy" way to kill me. You dont know when the opportunity will present itself next. You dont know if you can ever beat me.

Are you willing to kill every innocent person on that bus by blowing up the bus just so that I can die too?

Are you willing to kill those innocent people in the name of your revenge? And not only in the name of revenge... in teh name of "the easy way out"

Do you see what I mean? Even though you hate me so much for killing your parents, you would not go slaughter peoples who have nothing to do with your vedetta.

If you did, it would make you feel so bad, so horrible that the lust for revenge would fade away.

Indeed sasuke cares about nothing but his revenge. But the very fact taht he would kill innocent people to get to itachi.... really makes him disgusting.

Basically just because Itachi has mange sharingan, doest mean he can never be defeated. Sasuke in essence weak of spirit. He got pounded by Itachi and now he is feeling weak.

The 4th hokage didnt have mange sharingan but he could most likely defeat itachi.

To sasuke at the moment, an easier path to killing itachi is more imporatnt than his friends life.
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Old 2004-08-11, 17:05   Link #15
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Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
Let me put it in more conventional terms so you see what I mean.
.
I think Mcdougal explained it perfectly. You should read his post.
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Old 2004-08-11, 17:11   Link #16
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
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Originally Posted by Lost World
I think Mcdougal explained it perfectly. You should read his post.
And what makes you think i didnt read it?
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Old 2004-08-11, 17:14   Link #17
Dauthi
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Itachi playing with Sasuke's mind plays a lot bigger role than most people think, i believe.

The reason Itachi did that is because he seen that Naruto was changing him into a good person. This is exactly what he didnt want, so he changed him. Before the second mange sharingan, Sasuke would have never done what he is doing now.

So really i dont blame Sasuke, its like blaming someone for being hypnotized, to an extent. His will/mind was/is being bent, and i doubt few could overcome this.

Is it moral, well morality is in the eye of the beholder. Most would say no, but deep down Sasuke is truely a good person, weve seen this.

EDIT
Also we have yet to see if he really will kill Naruto. We all know they both wanted to fight, so its not surprising they are having an all out fight. Is Sasuke twisted to the point he will kill Naruto? Maybe, maybe not.
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Old 2004-08-11, 17:25   Link #18
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Well, if Sasuke wants the mange he has to kill Naruto, and if he wants it bad he has to seek up Naruto. Because killing itachi is everything for him?

The most interesting thing is what will become of Sasuke after.. hmm let say he kills Itachi. He has nothing to do then, yeah sure revive the clan. Good luck with a lvl 2 curse seal on your neck that is controled by orochimaru.

Personally i think Sasuke is a fool who wants to have revenge that much, at the same time i understand him. The manga is starting to get really interesting =)
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Old 2004-08-11, 19:50   Link #19
Hunter
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I don't think Sasuke is really the same to Itachi because their goal and motive differ completely.
Simply put, Itachi is clearly psychopatic whereas Sasuke 'only' decided willingly to do horrible things to reach his goal.

In the other hand, the way they seek their goal is becoming the same which indeed doesn't make Sasuke a good person and it's an understatement.

For the question, no I don't think Sasuke would have sought Naruto yet, but under the 'teaching' of Oro and the action of the curse seal (btw do you think a part of his 'new' very cold behavior is already due partially to the curse seal which erode his will?), I think that with time he would have probably done it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
How can he justify killing itachi in the name of revenge when he himself is commiting the very same types of crimes that he is so eager to deal justice against?
Simply because vengeance has nothing to do with justice.
Did you know the manga Lone Wolf and Cub?
The principle to live as a demon in order to seek vengeance whatever the cost and the live of innocents in the way in very well explained, it's very Japanese-ish.

And anyway it's an incredible and awesome manga so you should all read it.
But be warned, it's a very gloomy, violent, sad and deep Seinen so nothing to see with Naruto (hey but it's full of Ninjas and Samourais )
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Old 2004-08-11, 20:09   Link #20
Last of the Uchiha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Simply because vengeance has nothing to do with justice.
Did you know the manga Lone Wolf and Cub?
The principle to live as a demon in order to seek vengeance whatever the cost and the live of innocents in the way in very well explained, it's very Japanese-ish.

And anyway it's an incredible and awesome manga so you should all read it.
But be warned, it's a very gloomy, violent, sad and deep Seinen so nothing to see with Naruto (hey but it's full of Ninjas and Samourais )


I agree with your example of Lone Wolf and Cub, but it will cost him $270.00 to read the whole series, it's a must own for any collector, i'm one.
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