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Old 2004-08-11, 21:01   Link #21
yinstro
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so i think the consensus is that sasuke is not moral, and is not "a good person" So he is pursuing itachi out of pure anger and vengeance, its not about ideals, or missing his family, or that some one like that shouldnt be allowed to go on. Its just a personal descion to kill. Interesting, if that is the case he s not much different from itachi, in some respects, their ideas is that any one or anything that gets in teh way of thier goals should be destroyed, anything that can help should be taken at any cost save preventing your goal.

whats also, as was said earlier, not just what gets in the way, but any slight advantage. Not the best course of action to achieve the goal, but the easiest, or maybe fastest is better word.

But do your really think sasuke is this person? To act so coldy, to premeditate someones murder. Its not just th heat of the moment, it would be a clear and concious decision. To me, that wouldnt make sense for the sasuke we ve met. I mean his goals were to rebuild uchiha, and kill his brother. The first seems forgotten. That aspect of his charachter is evaporating it seems. well we shall see
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Old 2004-08-11, 21:29   Link #22
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
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Ok i see all your points.

I dunno, for me even the most burning hate would soon neutrilize as soon as I realized that my quest for vengence is causing others the pain that was caused to me.

What about the concept of "an easy way out" ?

Is a sharingan master like Itachi immortal? Not at all. Itachi himself has a healthy respect for the sannin.

It would be a safe assumption that someone like the 4th Hokage would be too much for even a mange sharingan Itachi to handle.

So now the question i ask is this.

Is sasuke taking a easier path to gain his revenge? He already has the sharingan and nearly all its perks on top of that he is naturally gifted.

If non-bloodline ninja like the 3rd Hokage, the sannin, and perhaps the 4th hokage (not sure if he had a bloodline. Doubt it) can become so powerful, doesnt that show sasuke that there are other paths to his vengence without killing his friend? Is he taking an easier way out because he fears itachi or has no self confidnece?

I dotn know. Its hard to say. But i think people are right when they say that hte phycological trauma of itachi's latest ass whooping on him + the effects of the cursed seal + the overall emotion of seeing Itachi are seriously seriously clouding sasuke's judgement.
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Old 2004-08-11, 21:41   Link #23
yinstro
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he definitely is pursuing the easiest/fastest? path, then again maybe not, hes just reacting crazily, we have seen no indication he knows what mange does, or that it wil be effective on Itachi. We have seen no indication that training with oro will be easier or faster, or lead to him beating Itachi, in fact he has no reason to believe going to oro will allow him to kill Itachi. I dont know why he would think it would. So maybe he's just reaching for anything different i guess he really has lost his sense. Well i guess that makes sense, people do that, i think some assumed he was too good to lose sight of his goals, and who he was. But alas maybe thats not the case.

However im not of the school that when you lose your sense, your actions are excused, or ok. Some things you just cant take back, and no amount of I'm sorry matters. I dont put a waiver on morals for being disturbed, so imo he would still be immoral even in his current state
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Old 2004-08-11, 22:04   Link #24
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
(btw do you think a part of his 'new' very cold behavior is already due partially to the curse seal which erode his will?)
I'm not entirely convinced that Sasuke's flashback isn't all just a creation of the curse seal. It's entirely possible that it's rewriting Sauske's memories. Before the flashback Sasuke was willing to let Naruto go, yet after he must kill Naruto. One could argue that kishimoto wouldn't waste so many chapters on something that wasn't true. I kind of agree with that, but I do want to point out that it's very possible that sasuke is already being controlled by the seal to the point that he no longer has any say in what he does.
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Old 2004-08-11, 22:24   Link #25
Last of the Uchiha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
Ok i see all your points.

I dunno, for me even the most burning hate would soon neutrilize as soon as I realized that my quest for vengence is causing others the pain that was caused to me.
That's you, not him. Hate him or love him, he just made the series more interesting in any way you look at him.

Quote:
What about the concept of "an easy way out" ?
He didn't take the easy way out, it because Naruto got in his way and he got tempted, Sasuke did warned him a couple of times.

Quote:
Is a sharingan master like Itachi immortal? Not at all. Itachi himself has a healthy respect for the sannin.
I agree.

Quote:
It would be a safe assumption that someone like the 4th Hokage would be too much for even a mange sharingan Itachi to handle.
Acctually i love to see that fight. I mean at what age did the Fourth became a Hokage, 24 or something like that, he was a considered a genius of genius. Itachi is 17 and he is on the league of the Sannin(although he may be a little above them) and his reputation as a genius rival's that of the Fourth, so i don't think it would be too much for Itachi.They might have been on equal ground.

Quote:
Is sasuke taking a easier path to gain his revenge? He already has the sharingan and nearly all its perks on top of that he is naturally gifted.
Sasuke obviously didn't take the easiest way out, he took the hardest one, where he might have die along with his goal, so he decide to go with Orochimaru. It wasn't is fault that Naruto decide to follow him and stop him. Sasuke warned him, and Naruto didn't listen. One might say, that Naruto did this to himself. He questioned Sasuke's motive and made him remember his past, which it just happen to be how to obtain the densetsu sharingan. Naruto should have shut up, and left him be. If Sasuke wants to destroy himself, then let him do it, he didn't ask for any help. What Sasuke is doing is wrong, but in the state that he's in, he doesn't care about the consequences, good or bad.


Quote:
If non-bloodline ninja like the 3rd Hokage, the sannin, and perhaps the 4th hokage (not sure if he had a bloodline. Doubt it) can become so powerful, doesnt that show sasuke that there are other paths to his vengence without killing his friend? Is he taking an easier way out because he fears itachi or has no self confidnece?
Wolf, did you read what Hunter wrote to you, about the manga Lone Wolf and Cub


Quote:
I dotn know. Its hard to say. But i think people are right when they say that hte phycological trauma of itachi's latest ass whooping on him + the effects of the cursed seal + the overall emotion of seeing Itachi are seriously seriously clouding sasuke's judgement.
I couldn't agree more.
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Old 2004-08-11, 22:45   Link #26
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
I dunno, for me even the most burning hate would soon neutrilize as soon as I realized that my quest for vengence is causing others the pain that was caused to me.
I would say you don't know what you talk about and i hope you will never know
There're people who can accept to live in the same world of those who killed, raped, tortured, etc. them and their relatives or friends.
Some people can't.

One thing you must remember is that the world of Naruto isn't ours.
As much as Konoha ninjas are nice and all, there still ninjas.
They're mercenaries and hitmen, hired killer.
There are no cops or justice institution but them, to search and destroy the killer of your clan is perfectly normal and it's Sasuke's duty as the last survivor of his clan (but the killer) to avenge them.
Despite the modern technologies, the world of Naruto is a japan feudal world, not to avenge his clan by killing Itachi would be a shame.

Could Sasuke win against Itachi without the Mangekyou Sharingan?
Think about it, it would mean not to use his eyes, it's not only to give up his most powerful weapon, Sasuke is the vengeance of the Uchiha, he must kill Itachi as a Uchiha.

So is he taking the easier path?
No, I don't see why, it's not going to be particulary easier just because he would be trained by Orochimaru.
So why?

What did Itachi, the stronger man he knows, his absolute goal, the reason of his life said about that?
Not enough hatred.
What did Gaara, the man that Sasuke couldn't beat said?
You're too weak because your hatred is weaker than mine.
What did the four Sounds who beat him said?
Once again the same thing, that he was weak because he softly lives, playing family in this nice village.

And there is a powerful demon made man who can teach him, who wants to teach him or so he thinks.

In his current state of mind, leaving Konoha is logical and he will do whatever he thinks he will need to to achieve his vengeance upon Itachi.

Except if Naruto succeeds once again to change the heart of his opponent.
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Old 2004-08-11, 23:09   Link #27
indo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
But the question is this.

How can you claim to hate something so passionately and yet you have become the very thing that you hate.

Sasuke might as well slit his own throat on the spot because he is becoming a walking manifestation of the very thing that he hates so much.

How can he justify killing itachi in the name of revenge when he himself is commiting the very same types of crimes that he is so eager to deal justice against?

In other words, has sasukes vengence become an issue of ;

- Avenging the innocent lives lost in his clan at the hands of his evil brother.
or
- He doesnt care about the uchihas itachi killed. He just wants itachi dead becaue it has become a matter of vedetta and not avenging.

well i remember gaara telling sasuke that he has the eyes of someone who wants to kill the person that put him in the hell of solitude, so i think that sasuke is looking for personal revenge for what itachi did to him
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Old 2004-08-11, 23:26   Link #28
yinstro
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yea but gaara changed his tune, oro doesnt want to face itachi and sound four basically tricked him into thinking they were super great. Of course, sasuke doesnt quite know all this yet, but dont you think he should try to find out? fact is Oro hasnt shown to be any stronger, or have the ability to have pupils any stronger than konoha. Right now he thinks Oro is a great path, im not exactly sure why, i guess cause he got power from seal one.

i think Mibu's point is it seems hes choosing Oro rather than having a long view or trying to get stronger in a less "Itachi" way

As far as the people who cant tolereate rapist etc in their world. IMO if you decide to become a rapist to kill a rapist because you cant tolerate them in the same world you basically missed the point. If you do the same thing that you couldnt tolerate to people who did nothing to you, you basically lose all claims for justice or moral ground, whatever you want to call it. Regardless of the rapist you killed theres still the girl you raped.
Also another thing wolf was trying to get at is, he doesnt NEED to kill naruto to beat Itachi, he chooses that path. there are any number of paths to kill Itachi that dont involve killing naruto or potentially being part of an attack on your village.

overall though i guess the concept of seeking vengeance by any means, knowing you create more ill in the world, or set up someone to seek vengeance on you and not caring isnt new. I guess thier point is the type of descion that sasuke has made is to abandon all morals, all ideas of justice, all feelings of wrong doing. he soley exists now to get vengeance, he no longer cares if its just, and if hes wrong, he expects you to kill him to stop him.

I wonder what sasuke would do if Itachi slipped on soap the day before he was ready to try to kill him, after all the things he did to get to that point
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Old 2004-08-11, 23:26   Link #29
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Two easy outcomes from the whole thing:

a) Sasuke kills Itachi, becoming a duplicate of him (I wouldn't be surprised if they're going for a type of a Star Wars effect) - whom Naruto will have to kill at the end of the show. Sasuke would be evil incarnate at the end, and Naruto the savior of everything. They've been hinting on this one for quite a lot, making us draw comparisons in the three Sannin. Naturally, Orochimaru would be Sasuke, Jiraya Naruto and Tsunade Sakura. Kind of a "history repeats itself" type of a thing

b) Naruto turns him back, and they remain a trio - Sakura/Sasuke/Naruto. Sasuke offs Itachi, Naruto offs Orochimaru, everyone is happy, end of show. Naruto becomes the Hokage, Sasuke opens another Military Police institution and commits his life to Sakura and his Sharingan kids.

Now, I'd hate for a) to happen, or anything along the lines of it. It's too much of a copy, from other things we've seen. However, b) seems more inplausible, and is the most likely not to occur.

I don't know...two extremes...which one do you prefer...toughie...
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Old 2004-08-11, 23:38   Link #30
zarkand
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Quote:
Sasuke obviously didn't take the easiest way out, he took the hardest one, where he might have die along with his goal, so he decide to go with Orochimaru. It wasn't is fault that Naruto decide to follow him and stop him. Sasuke warned him, and Naruto didn't listen. One might say, that Naruto did this to himself. He questioned Sasuke's motive and made him remember his past, which it just happen to be how to obtain the densetsu sharingan. Naruto should have shut up, and left him be. If Sasuke wants to destroy himself, then let him do it, he didn't ask for any help. What Sasuke is doing is wrong, but in the state that he's in, he doesn't care about the consequences, good or bad.
By leaving Konoha it is Sasuke's fault that Naruto is after him. Do you really think that no one would be sent to come and retrive him? Speaking of which it is also Naruto's mission to bring Sasuke back to Konoha as handed down by the Hokage, if he were to just let Sasuke go, he would be abandoning the mission, his duty to Konoha, to his comrades that may of gave up there lives for mission, and his duty to Sasuke. As odd as that may sound, what friend would let another go down a self-destructive path? If you saw one of your friends doing something that can kill them and did nothing or just backed away, it makes you a really poor friend.
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Old 2004-08-12, 00:12   Link #31
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
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Oooh i have an intersting question.

Riddle me this ... ^^

Lets say after his "training" with Orochimaru is complete, Oro says this to sasuke.


Orochimaru:

" You have now completed your training. You are almost as powerful as Itachi, but in order to defeat Itachi you need my power. I shall bestow on you my most powerful seal. It will give you the strenth you need to finally kill your brother.
However, know this... As soon as Itachi is dead, my seal shall consume your body and I shall take it over. With your body, power and my knowledge, I shall be unstoppable. I will lay waste to Konoha and kill every person in it, down the last woman and child. Are you prepared to recieve my seal?"


And sasuke knows there is no way around this. He cannot trick Oro and he knows that as soon as he kills Itachi, Oro's seal will devour him and Oro will take over his body and use him to destroy Konoha and kill everybody in it.

Do you think Sasuke will agree?
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Old 2004-08-12, 00:39   Link #32
Last of the Uchiha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
Oooh i have an intersting question.

Riddle me this ... ^^

Lets say after his "training" with Orochimaru is complete, Oro says this to sasuke.


Orochimaru:

" You have now completed your training. You are almost as powerful as Itachi, but in order to defeat Itachi you need my power. I shall bestow on you my most powerful seal. It will give you the strenth you need to finally kill your brother.
However, know this... As soon as Itachi is dead, my seal shall consume your body and I shall take it over. With your body, power and my knowledge, I shall be unstoppable. I will lay waste to Konoha and kill every person in it, down the last woman and child. Are you prepared to recieve my seal?"


And sasuke knows there is no way around this. He cannot trick Oro and he knows that as soon as he kills Itachi, Oro's seal will devour him and Oro will take over his body and use him to destroy Konoha and kill everybody in it.

Do you think Sasuke will agree?

Do you honestly believe that he will let Orochimaru take over his body, that's like saying that Naruto will be devoured or his body taken over by Kyuubi for asking for his power. I'm pretty sure that someone has an exucse for that. Sasuke will never let someone else possess him, since he want to kill his brother. He wants power, not someone else inside of him to to kill his brother. I wouldn't worry to much about the cursed seal, since once he kills Orochimaru, the seal will dissapear with him. Orochimaru by taking Sasuke as an disciple and as a future container, it would bring his downfall, since he is bitting more than he can chew. That will be one hell of a fight, master and disciple. After that, maybe Sasuke and Kabuto will continue working together, of course for their own purposes.
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Old 2004-08-12, 00:47   Link #33
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
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Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha
Do you honestly believe that he will let Orochimaru take over his body, that's like saying that Naruto will be devoured or his body taken over by Kyuubi for asking for his power. I'm pretty sure that someone has an exucse for that. Sasuke will never let someone else possess him, since he want to kill his brother. He wants power, not someone else inside of him to to kill his brother. I wouldn't worry to much about the cursed seal, since once he kills Orochimaru, the seal will dissapear with him. Orochimaru by taking Sasuke as an disciple and as a future container, it would bring his downfall, since he is bitting more than he can chew. That will be one hell of a fight, master and disciple. After that, maybe Sasuke and Kabuto will continue working together, of course for their own purposes.
This is a hypothetical question.
I dont mean that Oro will enter sasukes body to fight for him.

Oro has a lot of seals. Cursed seal, etc. What if he offers sasuke the "ultimate seal" which works like the cursed seal except it will make sasuke much much stronger.
However the catch is that, that seal will kill sasuke after he has used it. So basically it will be a one time thing that sasuke will use to beat itachi but he will die after, and Oro wil ltake over his body.

You seem to be forgetting that sasuke is going to Orochimaru right now. Oro wants sasukes body. Oro also knows sasuke wants vengence. You think Oro is just going to train sasuke and give him power to kill Itachi and then have sasuke make a run for it at the last moment with Oro's desired body?
Ofcourse not. Oro will give sasuke the training and secrets to defeating Itachi, but oro will undoubtedly have a "collar" of some sort to make sure that as soon as Itachi is dead, sasuke's body belongs to him.

No way in hell Oro will just blindly train Sasuke to become stronger than Itachi whom Oro fears, and then take sasuke's word that he'll just "give up his body".
People always have a fail-safe. Oro will make his fail-safe perfectly clear to Sasuke so sasuke knows that theres no monkey buisness.
My question is will sasuke agree to get help from Oro if oro tells him that after his training, killign itachi etc. Sasukes body will be used to destroy konoha?
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Old 2004-08-12, 01:06   Link #34
socomberetta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
This is a hypothetical question.
I dont mean that Oro will enter sasukes body to fight for him.

Oro has a lot of seals. Cursed seal, etc. What if he offers sasuke the "ultimate seal" which works like the cursed seal except it will make sasuke much much stronger.
However the catch is that, that seal will kill sasuke after he has used it. So basically it will be a one time thing that sasuke will use to beat itachi but he will die after, and Oro wil ltake over his body.
I know this is a hypothetical, but is it possible for Oro to take over the body of a dead person?

Quote:
You seem to be forgetting that sasuke is going to Orochimaru right now. Oro wants sasukes body. Oro also knows sasuke wants vengence. You think Oro is just going to train sasuke and give him power to kill Itachi and then have sasuke make a run for it at the last moment with Oro's desired body?
Ofcourse not. Oro will give sasuke the training and secrets to defeating Itachi, but oro will undoubtedly have a "collar" of some sort to make sure that as soon as Itachi is dead, sasuke's body belongs to him.
I think if Oro were to have his way, he wouldn't give Sasuke the chance to go after Itachi. There would be too much risk, I mean what good would Sasuke be after all that training, only to be killed by Itachi. I think he'd save Itachi for himself.

Quote:
My question is will sasuke agree to get help from Oro if oro tells him that after his training, killign itachi etc. Sasukes body will be used to destroy konoha?
Right now, Sasuke has decided that he's willing to kill his friend for power, once he's gotten a taste of more power, I think he'd go for it.
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Old 2004-08-12, 02:23   Link #35
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha
Do you honestly believe that he will let Orochimaru take over his body, that's like saying that Naruto will be devoured or his body taken over by Kyuubi for asking for his power. I'm pretty sure that someone has an exucse for that. Sasuke will never let someone else possess him, since he want to kill his brother. He wants power, not someone else inside of him to to kill his brother. I wouldn't worry to much about the cursed seal, since once he kills Orochimaru, the seal will dissapear with him. Orochimaru by taking Sasuke as an disciple and as a future container, it would bring his downfall, since he is bitting more than he can chew. That will be one hell of a fight, master and disciple. After that, maybe Sasuke and Kabuto will continue working together, of course for their own purposes.
Sasuke already indicated that he didn't care if Oro took over his body as long as he can kill itachi. Sasuke, as he is now, would say yes in that situation.
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Old 2004-08-12, 09:15   Link #36
Last of the Uchiha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356
Sasuke already indicated that he didn't care if Oro took over his body as long as he can kill itachi. Sasuke, as he is now, would say yes in that situation.
He told Naruto that he didn't care, but that was clearly a bluff, if you didn't notice. There is a diference between wanting power to killl Itachi and letting someone possess you to kill your brother. You are giving Sasuke little credit, but oh well, you will found out what will happen when Sasuke kills Orochimaru.
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Old 2004-08-12, 09:22   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha
He told Naruto that he didn't care, but that was clearly a bluff, if you didn't notice. There is a diference between wanting power to killl Itachi and letting someone possess you to kill your brother. You are giving Sasuke little credit, but oh well, you will found out what will happen when Sasuke kills Orochimaru.
Now that isn't a fact. You can't know that, nobody but Kishimoto can know it for sure. Yes, it is possible but assuming for sure that Sasucke will kill Orochimaru is a big bunch of bull.
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Old 2004-08-12, 09:30   Link #38
Last of the Uchiha
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Originally Posted by SanttuH
Now that isn't a fact. You can't know that, nobody but Kishimoto can know it for sure. Yes, it is possible but assuming for sure that Sasucke will kill Orochimaru is a big bunch of bull.

Then, you will have to see how big of bull it is once it happens. Their ties are too well constructed for not to happen.
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Old 2004-08-12, 11:22   Link #39
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yinstro
As far as the people who cant tolereate rapist etc in their world. IMO if you decide to become a rapist to kill a rapist because you cant tolerate them in the same world you basically missed the point. If you do the same thing that you couldnt tolerate to people who did nothing to you, you basically lose all claims for justice or moral ground, whatever you want to call it. Regardless of the rapist you killed theres still the girl you raped.
Basically i think you didn't understand a word of what I said because there is nothing about justice or moral claim in my post.
Actually I specifically say the opposite.

It's not about tolerate or not this kind of acts for themself, Sasuke is not a dispenser of justice in cape and costume, he's an avenger.
His vengeance is personal to the Uchiha, he must kill the assassin of his family and for that he is decided to follow himself the path of the assassin, the Meifumado, the living hell.
Of all the emotion, love, anger, hate, sorrow, joy, compassion... For a man walking Meifumado, the dark path to hell, there is only hate...

Everything is subordinated to the completion of the vengeance.
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Old 2004-08-12, 11:47   Link #40
VMLM3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
Oooh i have an intersting question.

Riddle me this ... ^^

Lets say after his "training" with Orochimaru is complete, Oro says this to sasuke.


Orochimaru:

" You have now completed your training. You are almost as powerful as Itachi, but in order to defeat Itachi you need my power. I shall bestow on you my most powerful seal. It will give you the strenth you need to finally kill your brother.
However, know this... As soon as Itachi is dead, my seal shall consume your body and I shall take it over. With your body, power and my knowledge, I shall be unstoppable. I will lay waste to Konoha and kill every person in it, down the last woman and child. Are you prepared to recieve my seal?"


And sasuke knows there is no way around this. He cannot trick Oro and he knows that as soon as he kills Itachi, Oro's seal will devour him and Oro will take over his body and use him to destroy Konoha and kill everybody in it.

Do you think Sasuke will agree?
Yes, by the time Sasuke is ready for Orochimaru to propose him entering his body Sasuke will be as much a puppet as the Sound 5 where, he probably wouldn't hesitate to accepting Orochimaru's power. If your question was would Sasuke accept in a 'normal' state (before level 2 curse seal), I don't think so, Sasuke isn't so heartless.
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