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Old 2009-12-30, 09:17   Link #461
omimon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
I think Nishio just lost the grasp of Hitagi's personality and eventually lost her tsundere side as well, turning into a normal and rather boring sweet girl. Maybe thats one of the main reason why we do not get much scenes from here. She is simply too boring for a good story, even for Nishio and he opts for other far much more interesting characters that still can dominated the plot just with their personalities alone.

Hitagi turned into a sweet girl, but at the same time it made her plain and far much less interesting, which eventually Nishio felt and just cannot find the place for the new her in his story.

It is not like Nishio is that great really. He does mistakes and his latest series is far from impressive (really mediocre) - I view the Hitagi personality shift to be one of the many mistakes he made and he seems like he cannot find the way to bring the old fire in her again. I do see the sense - the new sweet-boring self is the symbolic way to show that she became 'normal', but it does not seem to be clicking that well with the story, thats why she gets basically erased from the bigger parts of the story now.
When you are talking about his latest series, are you talking about Medaka Box? If you are then yea it really isn't his best work. But manga is different from novels and I think the artist for the series isn't that good. Either way, Nisio is one of the only POPULAR light novel authors who are decent enough to actually work on their series rather than live off the royalties from the adaptations.
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Old 2009-12-30, 09:23   Link #462
Westlo
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Isn't Nisio's strength his witty conversations? (which he makes his characters so much better through) I really don't think any manga series can have conversations like Bakemonogatari's and get away with it.. especially not one in WSJ aimed at young boys who love action. Could you imagine 4 chapters of Zen and Medaka just verbal sparing in WSJ, yeah right lol.
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Old 2009-12-30, 10:06   Link #463
ickem
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Isn't Nisio's strength his witty conversations? (which he makes his characters so much better through) I really don't think any manga series can have conversations like Bakemonogatari's and get away with it.. especially not one in WSJ aimed at young boys who love action. Could you imagine 4 chapters of Zen and Medaka just verbal sparing in WSJ, yeah right lol.
Of course, Medaka Box is also shounen so he can't just spend an entire tankoban worth of chapters devoted to talking. This is an audience that sometimes rages if an author has the gall to not have the characters beat on each other for one chapter.

Also it's not as if Hitagi's lost her ability to flay Koyomi with her tongue. She just uses it more sparingly. Besides it's not as if Hitagi has even appeared onscreen yet so writing her off is way premature.
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Old 2009-12-30, 10:14   Link #464
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Originally Posted by ickem View Post
Also it's not as if Hitagi's lost her ability to flay Koyomi with her tongue. She just uses it more sparingly. Besides it's not as if Hitagi has even appeared onscreen yet so writing her off is way premature.
Oh... so a few posts in here are taking some liberties and posting from

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Old 2009-12-30, 11:42   Link #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon View Post
When you are talking about his latest series, are you talking about Medaka Box? If you are then yea it really isn't his best work. But manga is different from novels and I think the artist for the series isn't that good. Either way, Nisio is one of the only POPULAR light novel authors who are decent enough to actually work on their series rather than live off the royalties from the adaptations.
Well probably I expressed myself bad. Yes Medaka Box does count in his mediocre writing list, but i had in mind his other big novel series Katanagatari, which as far as I heard failed tio impress not only me but also quite a few critics in Japan as well.

Nishio is a good novel writer - his Zaregoto or Monogatari series are interesting to read, but there are also works that do smell like mediocre writings. Not that it is bad thing as we see markets full of such stuff, but that is what makes me to look skeptical at all that calling Nishio a novel God. He is good, but not that good, or else we would not see such mediocre titles at all and he would be releasing one big hit after another.

He is not a god, but a person and can make mistakes/run out of ideas just like all writers do at one point or another and I think Hitagi's character development, though planned (to show she is becoming normal happy girl) was a mistake because this character seems to be loosing its attractive charm in the firs place and making Nishio difficult to find her a place in the story at all.

Like Westly rightfully noted Nishio's strength is witty conversations and somehow with the new Hiatgi character development it becomes hard to create such witty dialog as it was before when she is taking a part in it, so he goes for other characters who can still provide it with ease (Kanbaru etc) to fill the place left after reducing Hitagi's role.
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Old 2009-12-30, 12:33   Link #466
Zetsubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Like Westly rightfully noted Nishio's strength is witty conversations and somehow with the new Hiatgi character development it becomes hard to create such witty dialog as it was before when she is taking a part in it, so he goes for other characters who can still provide it with ease (Kanbaru etc) to fill the place left after reducing Hitagi's role.
I doubt you have any proof to support that claim.

Show me where you have proof that it is hard for Nisio to create witty conversation with the new Hitagi personailty ?



Do you know his real reason for reducing her role ?

Where is the evidence that his choice for her change was a mistake ?

It sounds as if you people hate Hitagi !



I mean you guys ought to be cheering for her !

Why do you not support the character you claim to like so much ?

If you guys truly like the Hitagi character, then her change should be welcomed because she regains her emotions and is "HAPPY"

I thought Hitagi becomming happy, softer and sweeter to Koyomi would be more important to her fans.

Consider her stuggles to get there !

Now that she is free, people are saying she is boring and that it is hard to write for her ?

This is incredulous !

All we have is speculation and baseless assertions.

Just because we have not read it we think the worst ?

We really are hard to please.
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Old 2009-12-30, 14:22   Link #467
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Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
I doubt you have any proof to support that claim.

Show me where you have proof that it is hard for Nisio to create witty conversation with the new Hitagi personailty ?



Do you know his real reason for reducing her role ?

Where is the evidence that his choice for her change was a mistake ?

It sounds as if you people hate Hitagi !



I mean you guys ought to be cheering for her !

Why do you not support the character you claim to like so much ?

If you guys truly like the Hitagi character, then her change should be welcomed because she regains her emotions and is "HAPPY"

I thought Hitagi becomming happy, softer and sweeter to Koyomi would be more important to her fans.

Consider her stuggles to get there !

Now that she is free, people are saying she is boring and that it is hard to write for her ?

This is incredulous !

All we have is speculation and baseless assertions.

Just because we have not read it we think the worst ?

We really are hard to please.
I like Hitagi, but the one Hitagi who was presented at first and not the one who did a 180 later.

Its like saying why do you not like BMW its all good and fine, so what if it was a Diablo before, its still a car. Yeah, but there are still quite a few differences, what I liked before is very different from what it is now, its almost like a completely different thing all together.

Just because you like the old Hitagi does not mean you will like the new one, simply because she has very little to do with the old Hitagi that you grew to like. It is not so hard to understand, is it?

People change. Just because that person is the same in name, does not mean that you will like him/her the same if from optimistic energetic person he/she turned into sad pessimistic one prone to violence. The name of the person does not matter - its what that person is and how that person acts. And if that person acts and who he/she is changed, even though the name is still the same you cannot expect to like him/her the same.

My main 'proof' is the lack of Hitagi's appearance which means that the author feels like the character does not contribute well to the current storyline and that the character like Kanbaru provide much more to it and can produce more plot turns, while such characters like Hitagi feel like they do not have as much plot-value as before.

I haven't seen other more solid arguments than this. If the author does not find a place to the character in the story it seems like the story and the author himself alienated from that character in question, and that character just do not have enough depth-plot wise to give more situations. One of the reason for that - happiness. Its much harder to writye about happy poeple than about unhappy ones or ones that have problems. Hitagi is like case solved and her bag looks empty to give us something new.

The only other argument I can think of would be that Nishio knows about Hitagi (old) popularity and wants to suppress this character on purpose so that he would get more reaction when the character makes a comeback, but again, this particular plan would be very risky considering hat Hitagi's character went under major transformation and the new Hitagi seems to barely have anything to do with the Hitagi of old.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2009-12-30 at 14:34.
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Old 2009-12-30, 17:17   Link #468
Zetsubo
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Spoiler:

Are you kidding ?

Wait... so Hitagi changes, you only HEAR (hearsay from koyomi) about the changes, you haven't seen it for yourself in print and yet you have mostly negative views.

Come now my good comrade.

Think you not in terms of fear ?

What I suspect is we are fearing that the new Hitagi will not be fun.

So in order to prevent a dissapointment, if she is given "future screen time" in her new form and fails to impress, we go with a negative view.

We say things like Nisio can't write for her... and she is boring now to him and to us... her change is too much she is not the same... etc.

Listen... I have invested entertainment interest in this character but I am not prone to such intense investments.

Even so... I remain positive... and I say Nisio and Hitag are both...

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY

I will not believe he can't write about Hitagi as happy or he wont.

For me, Nisio has to write about her being happy and fail at it first.

If you understand my thinking.

I have no proof that Niso has a dynamic and new and improved version of Hitagi. But I also have no proof that he is out of steam for the new one. Her absence is not proof.

It is pure negative fear driven suspicion.

You cant see it so you fear it.

If you understand what I am trying to say.
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Old 2009-12-30, 17:49   Link #469
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This is related to medaka box but just came to mind...

You know one of the things I have learned since reading manga and anime... is that Authors need to know when to quit despite the fans.

Every story has a head and a tail.

Japanese authors seem to be terrible at it... Fans seem to be greedy.

Publishing houses seem to want to wring every drop out of a story and a character and the whole thing last longer than it ought to.

Naruto and Bleach. They were good but should have ended long ago with NEW ideas broght to the front.

This is why I respect the CLAMP girls.

The reuse characters... in new ways... but end a story... when it is time to end it.

This is what I think Nisio has learnt from them.

I retrospect... by keeping Hitagi out of the Monogatari line leaves him free to bring her back to life in a new work.

For example, A light novel story/series about oddity fighting college students living together (the high school thing is really tiring) and getting through it all to graduation.

Arguments between Hitagi and Shinobu should be fun.

Hitagi : I told you to call me Okasan you blood sucking brat !
Shinobu: Shut up or I'll drain you. Then Koyomi will be all mine.

Hitagi : I wonder if I put too much garlic in Araragi kun's dinner, come here, taste this for me.
Shinobu: Agghhh, get away from me !

Hitagi : But, if you do away with me, I at least want to make sure you know how to cook well for Araragi kun and knows the tastes he likes.
Shinobu : Stay away !!!
*Hitagi chases Shinobu around apartment with bowl and spoon*

Shinobu : Araragi kun ! get thy crab off meee !!!
Hitagi : Ara, Koyomi-sama is not able to hear you now. He is fast asleep. I made sure I did some draining of my own to him last night. He hasn't any energy left. But I made sure to send him to a paradaise. See the smile on his face.

Shinobu : You Succubus !
Hitagi : Ah, so. We are family Shinobu-chan !

*Koyomi in sleep mode wrapped head to toe in futton with dirty perverted smile on his face... drool included.*

Last edited by Zetsubo; 2009-12-30 at 18:49.
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Old 2009-12-30, 22:33   Link #470
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Hello everyone.

I just wanted to point out that everyone has already seen a "happy" Hitagi. Everyone recalls the 3rd episode and a completely different Hitagi from the first 2 episodes. When I think of a happy Hitagi, this is how I imagine her. As you recall, she was happy because she had gotten her weight back and now had a first love. Poor Koyomi was even more helpless against her than if she came fully "armed" with stationary. Even with the other issues that she had, this was some pretty heady stuff for Hitagi.

The more problems or issues you face and overcome, just seems to make room for others to appear. She will still have issues when she goes to college and lives with a greedy and perverted lover that has a donut-eating vampire living in his shadow.

Hopefully Nisio will not allow Hitagi to be shunted aside.

By the way... wasn't classrep-chan planning to travel for a couple of years after graduation? She may not be an issue for Hitagi or Koyomi to deal with if that's the case.
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Old 2009-12-31, 04:49   Link #471
omimon
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Hello everyone.

I just wanted to point out that everyone has already seen a "happy" Hitagi. Everyone recalls the 3rd episode and a completely different Hitagi from the first 2 episodes. When I think of a happy Hitagi, this is how I imagine her. As you recall, she was happy because she had gotten her weight back and now had a first love. Poor Koyomi was even more helpless against her than if she came fully "armed" with stationary. Even with the other issues that she had, this was some pretty heady stuff for Hitagi.

The more problems or issues you face and overcome, just seems to make room for others to appear. She will still have issues when she goes to college and lives with a greedy and perverted lover that has a donut-eating vampire living in his shadow.

Hopefully Nisio will not allow Hitagi to be shunted aside.

By the way... wasn't classrep-chan planning to travel for a couple of years after graduation? She may not be an issue for Hitagi or Koyomi to deal with if that's the case.
She was only "slightly" happier during that episode, the new Hitagi is completely different and that's why we are questioning her place in the novel.

BTW, supposely Hitagi was in love with Kaiki Deishū when he first "helped" her three years ago. Hitagi of course denies it but...Araragi has never been able to look at Hitagi the same way again..... that's probably why she purposed what she purposed that night. She said that she only acted all lovely dovely because she was being helped, but of course she wasn't that way when Araragi helped her.....

Last edited by omimon; 2009-12-31 at 05:05.
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Old 2009-12-31, 10:31   Link #472
ickem
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Originally Posted by omimon View Post
She was only "slightly" happier during that episode, the new Hitagi is completely different and that's why we are questioning her place in the novel.

BTW, supposely Hitagi was in love with Kaiki Deishū when he first "helped" her three years ago. Hitagi of course denies it but...Araragi has never been able to look at Hitagi the same way again..... that's probably why she purposed what she purposed that night. She said that she only acted all lovely dovely because she was being helped, but of course she wasn't that way when Araragi helped her.....
Spoiler for Nise 1:
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Old 2009-12-31, 10:46   Link #473
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Originally Posted by omimon View Post
She was only "slightly" happier during that episode, the new Hitagi is completely different and that's why we are questioning her place in the novel.

BTW, supposely Hitagi was in love with Kaiki Deishū when he first "helped" her three years ago. Hitagi of course denies it but...Araragi has never been able to look at Hitagi the same way again..... that's probably why she purposed what she purposed that night. She said that she only acted all lovely dovely because she was being helped, but of course she wasn't that way when Araragi helped her.....
Spoiler for Big Big Questions... For me.:
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Old 2009-12-31, 11:39   Link #474
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Spoiler for Big Big Questions... For me.:
When I said, "she purposed what she purposed that night" I meant she gave both her body and soul to Koyomi, if you catch my drift. But with the being said, that's was only the most LIKELY answer.... I think someone purposed this before in this thread and that they could have been playing chinese checkers for all we know that night. Of course, when I wrote my last post I had the sex theory in mind and that she bared it all for Koyomi to show he is the only one in her mind right now and not Deishuu.

BUT!!!! This is all my own theories here, I mean she kinda did purposed what she was planning to do that night BEFORE she met Deishuu again, which denies my theory completely. And of course I'll bring up the point again that there is a slight chance that they didn't fool around that night.

Yozuru and Deishuu were Oshino's clubmates in the their occult club back in their college days. Yozuru is a onmyoji that specializes in dealing with "immortal kaiis" and Deishuu specializes in dealing with "imposter kaiis" or kaiis that doesn't exist. Oshino is kinda like a wild card who is a genius that specializes in everything. (At least, that is the image people get from him.) There is also a senpai in the club, but we don't hear a lot about this person. Basically, the occult club was these four people doing their usual occult club stuff. Turns out, between the three kouhais only Yozuru managed to graduate college. Both Deishuu and Oshino dropped out in the middle. The funny thing is that Yozura considered herself to be the dumbest out of the three and she turned out to be the only one that crossed the finish line.
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Old 2009-12-31, 11:49   Link #475
ickem
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Originally Posted by omimon View Post
When I said, "she purposed what she purposed that night" I meant she gave both her body and soul to Koyomi, if you catch my drift. But with the being said, that's was only the most LIKELY answer.... I think someone purposed this before in this thread and that they could have been playing chinese checkers for all we know that night. Of course, when I wrote my last post I had the sex theory in mind and that she bared it all for Koyomi to show he is the only one in her mind right now and not Deishuu.

BUT!!!! This is all my own theories here, I mean she kinda did purposed what she was planning to do that night BEFORE she met Deishuu again, which denies my theory completely. And of course I'll bring up the point again that there is a slight chance that they didn't fool around that night.

Yozuru and Deishuu were Oshino's clubmates in the their occult club back in their college days. Yozuru is a onmyoji that specializes in dealing with "immortal kaiis" and Deishuu specializes in dealing with "imposter kaiis" or kaiis that doesn't exist. Oshino is kinda like a wild card who is a genius that specializes in everything. (At least, that is the image people get from him.) There is also a senpai in the club, but we don't hear a lot about this person. Basically, the occult club was these four people doing their usual occult club stuff. Turns out, between the three kouhais only Yozuru managed to graduate college. Both Deishuu and Oshino dropped out in the middle. The funny thing is that Yozura considered herself to be the dumbest out of the three and she turned out to be the only one that crossed the finish line.
Spoiler for Nise 1:
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Old 2009-12-31, 11:51   Link #476
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Spoiler for Nise 1:
Haha, okay okay you caught me... I did word it so it seems like he is distrustful of her. But you got to admit, it's kinda shocking when a man almost twice as old as you came up to you and said that your current girlfriend had a childhood crush on him and that she was like pudding in his hand. I mean can you imagine it, if Kaiki actually used his occult club knowledge to help her, she would probably be in his pants by now. Man, now that I think about it....not even I can look at Hitagi the same way!!!

Also, I won't say that he was actually beaten since he is freaking Kaiki and I'm sure he had a few tricks up his sleeve. I think he just didn't bother since it was to much of a drag. That's the thing with Kaiki, he LIES ALL THE TIME, I mean it is almost impossible to analysis a character when you can't take any of his words to heart.
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Old 2009-12-31, 12:00   Link #477
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Haha, okay okay you caught me... I did word it so it seems like he is distrustful of her. But you got to admit, it's kinda shocking when a man almost twice as old as you came up to you and said that your current girlfriend had a childhood crush on him and that she was like pudding in his hand. I mean can you imagine it, if Kaiki actually used his occult club knowledge to help her, she would probably be in his pants by now.

Also, I won't say that he was actually beaten since he is freaking Kaiki and I'm sure he had a few tricks up his sleeve. I think he just didn't bother since it was to much of a drag. That's the thing with Kaiki, he LIES ALL THE TIME, I mean it is almost impossible to analysis a character when you can't take any of his words to heart.
Spoiler for Koyomi:
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Old 2009-12-31, 12:12   Link #478
omimon
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Spoiler for Koyomi:
I see, I see, I admit when a con artist can't con anything out of someone it's the con artist's lost.
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Old 2009-12-31, 12:19   Link #479
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Spoiler for Big Big Questions... For me.:
BTW, the wincest isn't just limited to Koyomi and his sisters. At the last chapter of Nise 1 we see that Karen and Tsukihi were sleeping together NAKED!!!! Supposedly, you heal faster from a fever if you do it.

Nisio - The only author with the balls to put two jailbaits together....and get away with it.
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Old 2009-12-31, 12:35   Link #480
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BTW, the wincest isn't just limited to Koyomi and his sisters. At the last chapter of Nise 1 we see that Karen and Tsukihi were sleeping together NAKED!!!! Supposedly, you heal faster from a fever if you do it.

Nisio - The only author with the balls to put two jailbaits together....and get away with it.
*Head Smash... Repeatedly* I NEVER KNEW THAT! (Being Serious) Did Koyomi Find out, and his reactions are??
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