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Old 2009-12-30, 21:56   Link #1941
Ronove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
Just for the sake of adding a bit of context...

Spoiler for It's just lengthy. That's all...:
Quite creepy. Jessica is plausible for a culprit. However, if we assume that Red Text only applies to the TIME it is said, then this can change a lot.

Let's say Battler's "stalker" was on the boat at the time. During the storm she crawled out of her hiding place and killed someone. This would apply to 17 People on island only!

But if the Red applies to any time (unless it's like Eva-Beatrice's red), then that would screw my theory.
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Old 2009-12-30, 22:16   Link #1942
TeeHee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Quite creepy. Jessica is plausible for a culprit. However, if we assume that Red Text only applies to the TIME it is said, then this can change a lot.

Let's say Battler's "stalker" was on the boat at the time. During the storm she crawled out of her hiding place and killed someone. This would apply to 17 People on island only!

But if the Red applies to any time (unless it's like Eva-Beatrice's red), then that would screw my theory.
I don't follow your logic at all.....

But in any case, it is (supposedly) true that it is socially acceptable for Japanese to marry their cousins, though it is relatively rare.

Actually, I have no idea how true that is. Can someone help me out here?

Anyways, if it IS true, it is possible that Jessica was actually frustrated by Battler in some fashion.
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Old 2009-12-31, 01:52   Link #1943
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Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
I don't follow your logic at all.....

But in any case, it is (supposedly) true that it is socially acceptable for Japanese to marry their cousins, though it is relatively rare.

Actually, I have no idea how true that is. Can someone help me out here?

Anyways, if it IS true, it is possible that Jessica was actually frustrated by Battler in some fashion.
Among the nobility/upper classes of society it used to be a fairly common practice to keep the family's bloodline 'pure'.

In this case, however, I don't think it really applies. While poking around in the early parts of Episode 2, I noticed this line, spoken by Eva to George when she raised the subject of arranging a marriage for him: "... And, you are the only grandson to carry Father's blood. ... We must prudently choose a fitting partner for you."

Also remember, in Episode 4 Ange knew what Beatrice was leading into when she had Battler start repeating in red. Rudolph obviously knows something as well. I'm gonna guess that either Battler is the child from 19 years ago, or else he's another orphan Kinzo passed off, this time to Rudolph. Eva, at the very least, knows about this. George too unless he totally missed the significance of what Eva just said. Ange was probably told by Eva since it would hurt her. I wonder how many others know that Battler isn't an Ushiromiya...
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Old 2009-12-31, 01:57   Link #1944
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Finally got around to playing around with 5, and just two observations:

1. Holy shit is Krauss an idiot. I always thought from how people talked about it that he simply made a couple bad investments, not that he was defrauded by some of the biggest WTF get-rich-quick schemes ever. I never thought he was the culprit (I think he's the most likely of the adults to be a culprit, and I still think he is, but I'm fairly certain that the adults aren't the main planners in this) but wow there is no way he can be one without some serious further explaining by Ryukishi.
2. One thing that interested me was how Kinzo's death was described. It sounds like he wasn't shut up in his room all the time before his death, but rather quite active. That interests me a lot in Jessica, as it would be a lot easier for her to believe Kinzo was still alive if he was shut up in his room before his death than if he was wandering around being active as it seems to have been described.
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Old 2009-12-31, 02:22   Link #1945
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EP5 Finished so epic and SO MANY QUESTIONS =p

Can someone give me a link to the interviews made to R7 especially the ones related with episode 5.
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Old 2009-12-31, 15:01   Link #1946
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Originally Posted by bigemperor View Post
Can someone give me a link to the interviews made to R7 especially the ones related with episode 5.
Spoiler for interview:
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Old 2009-12-31, 20:55   Link #1947
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Nice interview. It makes me kinda frustrated that I myself still don't know THE ANSWER yet...oh, time to start Umineko-Analise-Marathon.
Also whoa, this EP was just brilliant. I just love Erika; she is definitely my favorite female character so far. Heck, she is equal to Battler and Ronove in my private character ranking now, and that means a LOT. Erika my waifu . Or Batora's. I want them to get marrieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed .
Mysterious caller and his music theme were BRILLIANT. Seriously, I was kinda "nihil novi but fun anyw----WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?" while reading first parts of novel. Still, wtf Natsuhi, what kind of proof that card is for you? Also I wonder, who is cleaning her room anyway? Not like I'm searching for someone who can plant this (and probably not only this) card...
But well, I have one complaint. Everything was awesome and etc., but most of logic battles were like "Ok, this is cool, but when the real stuff begins"? Still, ending was awesome. My jaw dropped. However...not enough Lambda. I love Lambda. Not enough SuperPaper-Battler interaction .
Also, I was positively surprised about BeatoXBattler. I was scared that amount of it will destroy some part of my fun, but it was executed well and ship-nonliker like me was able to chew right trough it without having bad taste in the mouth. Thank you, Ryu.
Aaaand funny thing. Battler believed in moon rabbits, right?... ....Yes, I'm silly, I know.

Tee-Hee, if Shannon=Beatrice, then how do you look at that whole "I love George only because of Beatrice's magic and pact and stuff"?

Last edited by LuckySovietStar; 2009-12-31 at 20:59. Reason: I'm alsophile
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Old 2009-12-31, 23:43   Link #1948
lovelysan
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Hm. The moon rabitt thing...... That's kinda interesting now that I think about it actually. It makes me that all the magic stuff is basically a mix of Maria's and Battler's psyche's 0_0 . (Battler DID bring up goat-headed people before they even showed up after all.)

And uh... I think Ericka is a nifty vilan that I "love to hate." I really love Natsuhi and Ericka and Bern's basic set-up against her was..... grrrrrrrrrrrrrr. The more I've been thinking about it the past few days, the more upset I become ._. .
Poor Natsuhi. She was trying so hard ;_; .
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Old 2010-01-01, 00:46   Link #1949
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Originally Posted by LuckySovietStar View Post
Tee-Hee, if Shannon=Beatrice, then how do you look at that whole "I love George only because of Beatrice's magic and pact and stuff"?
The sole basis of selecting Shannon was that Battler possibly caused her some heartbreak, so don't take it that seriously. But I'll give it a whack...

Anyways, you can say that it's possible that Shannon the mastermind plans on manipulating George in her plan. Recall the presentation:
1) Shannon would do ANYthing to get George, even though she is furniture. Sher knows that, in every sense, he is out of her league.
2) She "knows love", unlike Kanon.
3) She is more sympathetic to Beatrice. She "knows her personally".

Assuming that Beatrice has no actual interactions with Shannon in real life (since the actual Beatrice died in the 60's), then much of this stuff is largely her own fabrication.

I would be interested in your reaction. Anyone else feeling somewhat enlightened?
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Old 2010-01-01, 03:04   Link #1950
Avisch
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The Shannon = Beatrice theory does interest me. Though if it does turn out to be true, I will feel as if I have spoiled myself.

It makes me realize that a woman will be the culprit or at least one of the culprits.

Natsuhi is ruled out. As per the events of this episode. Eva seems unlikely, and we already know that she is a partial culprit (as per Episode 3).

This leaves: Kyrie, Jessica, Rosa, and Shannon (of course)

Spoiler for Other ideas:



Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckySovietStar View Post
Aaaand funny thing. Battler believed in moon rabbits, right?... ....Yes, I'm silly, I know.
?
Lol I loved that it totally rang "ASUMU KNEW ABOUT THE LUNARIANS FROM TOUHOU"
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Old 2010-01-01, 04:54   Link #1951
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Shannon was not confirmed dead in Episode 1. Further, Battler never directly viewed her body- it was seen by Kanon, Hideyoshi, and possibly Nanjo (not sure, but he was supposed to be examining the bodies).

Who might have appeared as Beatrice in Ep1? If we take the final scene, where 'Beatrice' appears in front of the cousins, we can remove them from consideration. So Jessica, George, Maria and Natsuhi (Jessica was crying over her corpse) are out of the running. And obviously Battler. Battler positively identified the dead bodies of Krauss, Gohda and Rosa as well. So it's not them either. Eva and Hideyoshi as well. 10 down, 8 to go. Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist! Battler viewed but could not identify Rudolph and Kyrie. Same with Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa. He could be sure they were dead though. Kinzo is long dead. 16 down. All that leaves are Shannon and Kanon, since those are the only bodies Battler never saw.

I can come up with two theories:

1) Shannon faked her death and appeared as Beatrice at the end of the game. This is easy. Hideyoshi might have simply been fooled, and Kanon, who appears to have faked his own death later, might have just played along. If Nanjo examined her, he may have been convinced to keep it a secret as well.

Natsuhi put an extra lock on the door, but noone ever went back to check it. Kanon or Nanjo might have come back later and cut the lock off, or even smashed the door. Shannon is then free to move about and kill whoever she wishes, assuming she even is the killer.

2) Kyrie is actually dead before the game starts, and Kasumi has assumed her identity. Imagine this scenario for a moment: Kasumi, or some of the elders in the Sumadera family, decide to use Kyrie to seize control of the Ushiromiya fortune. Kyrie is killed by Kasumi shortly before the family conference. Kasumi then hires a boat to take her to Rokkenjima, hides Kyrie's body there, and assumes her identity. (A small piece of supporting evidence can be found in Episode 3- Kyrie had the stub of a boat ticket in her pocket. But that was never explained. It shouldn't be necessary for the Ushiromiyas to need a ticket to ride the boat to Rokkenjima.)

This is a stretch, I know. For this to work Rudolph has to be either incredibly dense, or he was threatened into cooperation. I can't see Battler being easily fooled either. Well, this is just speculation. However it happens, she gets onto the island without anyone the wiser. On the first twilight, she kills anyone still in the mansion that she can reach, and then tosses the bodies into the garden storage, along with Kyrie's corpse.

This would beat Beato's red of: Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist! After all, that IS Kyrie's corpse...

5) "Three sir" Guess I should throw Kanon in here too since he's still in the gray area. Same as Shannon, he has an opportunity. But unless we get some evidence that Kanon is actually a girl, I'm not gonna touch this one. I guess everyone could have died from the shock...


By simple elimination, we can remove almost everyone from consideration in Episode 1. The Kyrie theory is pretty out there, and Kanontrice would make Battler stay up nights shivering in a cold sweat, so I'm gonna put my money on Shannon.

Now if it were only that easy in Episode 2...

Last edited by Knicknevin; 2010-01-01 at 05:26.
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Old 2010-01-01, 09:00   Link #1952
Amegashita
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Then how did Kasumi get off the island? Seeing as though she appears in 1998, and at the time, wasn't Kasumi like, 14 years old? Okay, exaggeration, yes, but as I recall she wasn't in her 20's at the time the conference was held.
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Old 2010-01-01, 09:42   Link #1953
June 1983
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Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
In this case, however, I don't think it really applies. While poking around in the early parts of Episode 2, I noticed this line, spoken by Eva to George when she raised the subject of arranging a marriage for him: "... And, you are the only grandson to carry Father's blood. ... We must prudently choose a fitting partner for you."
I don't think that's supposed to be a hint about Battler's bloodline. I'm positive that he is Kinzo's grandson. It's just that in 1985 (which is when I believe Eva had that talk with George -- either 85 or 84) Battler had still renounced the Ushiromiya family name and had nothing to do with them, and they probably didn't think he would ever return.
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Old 2010-01-01, 10:02   Link #1954
TeeHee
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Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
2) Kyrie is actually dead before the game starts, and Kasumi has assumed her identity. Imagine this scenario for a moment: Kasumi, or some of the elders in the Sumadera family, decide to use Kyrie to seize control of the Ushiromiya fortune. Kyrie is killed by Kasumi shortly before the family conference. Kasumi then hires a boat to take her to Rokkenjima, hides Kyrie's body there, and assumes her identity. (A small piece of supporting evidence can be found in Episode 3- Kyrie had the stub of a boat ticket in her pocket. But that was never explained. It shouldn't be necessary for the Ushiromiyas to need a ticket to ride the boat to Rokkenjima.)

This is a stretch, I know. For this to work Rudolph has to be either incredibly dense, or he was threatened into cooperation. I can't see Battler being easily fooled either. Well, this is just speculation. However it happens, she gets onto the island without anyone the wiser. On the first twilight, she kills anyone still in the mansion that she can reach, and then tosses the bodies into the garden storage, along with Kyrie's corpse.

This would beat Beato's red of: Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist! After all, that IS Kyrie's corpse...
I cannot objectively accept your theory. After all, Kyrie is always referred to as Kyrie in red text. Also, the title of Kyrie isn't transferrable, unlike Kinzo.

Edit: Although, I would admit that the premise would make sense. It's just that the Decalogue denies the possibility.
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Old 2010-01-01, 10:25   Link #1955
LuckySovietStar
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Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
The sole basis of selecting Shannon was that Battler possibly caused her some heartbreak, so don't take it that seriously. But I'll give it a whack...

Anyways, you can say that it's possible that Shannon the mastermind plans on manipulating George in her plan. Recall the presentation:
1) Shannon would do ANYthing to get George, even though she is furniture. Sher knows that, in every sense, he is out of her league.
2) She "knows love", unlike Kanon.
3) She is more sympathetic to Beatrice. She "knows her personally".

Assuming that Beatrice has no actual interactions with Shannon in real life (since the actual Beatrice died in the 60's), then much of this stuff is largely her own fabrication.

I would be interested in your reaction. Anyone else feeling somewhat enlightened?
I was more interested on your take on "what repressed feelings\fears\goals\etc is Beatrice supposed to represents in Shannon's character?", to be frank. Like, that Natsuhi's delusions were in reality her desire for Kinzo's approval, etc.
Likely, what might all the LEAVE GEORGE DON'T TAKE HIS RING HE WILL TERRORIZE YOU IN BEDROOM deal symbolize? I know, this is kinda like trying to make sense out from magical crack, buuut...I always was thinking that this is purpose of supernatural scenes, not just our and Ryu's mindfu(ck/n).
Also, what, Beato forcing Kanon to lick her shoes is Shannon forcing him to help her agenda? If so, this is kinda sad, because poor Kanon get betrayed in the end...
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Old 2010-01-01, 11:14   Link #1956
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I don't know how relevant this theory is here, but I just found out, that the "on" kanji used by the Fukuin servants of Ushiromiya, "音", is the exact same "on" kanji, that's in the names of Mion and Shion from Higurashi. Maybe there's a connection between the Fukuin servants/orphans, and the Sonozaki family? :|
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Old 2010-01-01, 11:16   Link #1957
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I don't know how relevant this theory is here, but I just found out, that the "on" kanji used by the Fukuin servants of Ushiromiya, "音", is the exact same "on" kanji, that's in the names of Mion and Shion from Higurashi. Maybe there's a connection between the Fukuin servants/orphans, and the Sonozaki family? :|
As has been stated before, any similarities are purely fan service. Higurashi and Umineko are 2 different stories.
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Old 2010-01-01, 11:18   Link #1958
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- MeoTwister5: Has this been stated by Ryukishi07 himself? :S
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Old 2010-01-01, 11:58   Link #1959
Arkwright
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Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
Hey, I want to make a (fake) bet...

Spoiler for EP5:
Who's in?
I never really got the feeling that Beatrice was "dead" at the end of episode 5, I mean... We just saw Battler will himself back to life after it had been explicitly stated that he died.

Beatrice just kind of disappeared, and it had been stated multiple times that her existence depended on the illusion of the witch. So on the contrary, I would be surprised if she hasn't already popped back into existence after Battler reopened the possibility of the witch illusion during the ???? tea party.
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Old 2010-01-01, 13:45   Link #1960
Knicknevin
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Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
I cannot objectively accept your theory. After all, Kyrie is always referred to as Kyrie in red text. Also, the title of Kyrie isn't transferrable, unlike Kinzo.

Edit: Although, I would admit that the premise would make sense. It's just that the Decalogue denies the possibility.
Honestly I don't believe it either. It's just the only other even slightly plausible theory to explain who could have appeared as Beatrice at the end of Episode 1.


And, I don't things are gonna be that easy regarding Beato. Battler didn't recreate the illusion of the witch, he just made up a new human theory. He himself realized that since the crimes were solvable, magic couldn't have been used to commit them.

That doesn't mean he can't build up a new illusion over the course of Episode 6 though.
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