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Old 2010-01-02, 09:24   Link #1981
Arkwright
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The gameboard is the real world?
If we are arguing that the events were the work of humans, then yes, everything that happens should agree with the rules of the real world. Detective's authority only has meaning to people who are aware of the game, and should be a useless concept for justifying real-world events.

Anyway, I'm fairly sure there was no such red truth in episode 5 indicating that Battler was the detective for the first four games. If I missed one, let me know where it was.

But I don't really have a problem with assuming he was the detective for games 2-4. The reason I'm hesitant to assume that for episode 1 is that, when the game started, Beatrice had no "opponent" for her "game." In that case, what is the purpose of a "detective" if there are no outside observers, and how can we be so sure it was Battler if Beatrice had not challenged anyone yet?

Certainly there are signs that the game exists for Battler's sake, somehow, so it's not impossible that everything was planned ahead from the start, and the episode 1 tea party was just an act. But regardless of that I don't think I should dismiss the possibility that someone else was the detective (there is precedent for this, after all), or that the concept of a "detective" was only first used in episode 2.

Actually, never mind. I just found what you were talking about.

Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Until now, you have been the detective! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective viewpoint?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of view!!


That's a bit different from what you said. While it does suggest that Battler has never not been the detective, it doesn't eliminate the possibility that episode 1 had no detective (or that there was more than one.)
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Old 2010-01-02, 18:39   Link #1982
y2kmisty2000
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lol, has anyone seen this yet, a dubbed version of EP5 intro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Axi2ScD5I
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Old 2010-01-02, 22:08   Link #1983
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Regarding how red text was inapplicable at the trial:

Some metaworld events are a proxy for gameboard events. Red text, or blue text not countered by red text, if introduced in accordance with the Knox rules, becomes binding on the people, especially in such a proxy situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrice in episode 2
I'll tell Rosa that there are only five master keys!!
but Rosa ignored it. If Battler had been able to produce a gameboard-level clue that supported the claim, Rosa would have had to accept the red text.

In Episode 3, Eva had been uncertain whether or not she was the culprit. The combination of physical evidence (cigarette) and meta-Battler's blue text blocked piece-Battler or Eva from acting on any beliefs contrary to the Eva-culprit hypothesis; meta-Battler's actions forced piece-Battler from to accuse Eva, and forbid Eva from doubting her own guilt (even to Eva, years later).

In episode 5, Natsuhi's metaworld trial directly corresponded to a trial in the parlor. Piece-Battler's unblocked blue claims of a living Kinzo blocked Natsuhi from claiming "Kinzo is dead". Bern's red text, supported by piece-Erika's claims, became binding on everyone in the parlor.

Also, piece-Erika knew she was involved in a hoax to force Natsuhi to admit she knew that Kinzo was dead and reveal the location of the body. meta-Erika believed piece-Erika was being completely truthful. (Piece-Erikas precautions amounted to locking down the actions of everyone but Natsuhi while leaving Natsuhi free. Having Eva seal Natsuhi's door would have been a logical action, considering that Eva was suspicious, and would have largely eliminated Natsuhi as a suspect. Then again, Eva could have made the seal and immediately broken it. Also note piece-Erika's repeated "Where is Kinzo?" Meta-Erika, OTOH, was shocked when the problems with piece-Erika's conclusions were revealed, which wouldn't have happened if she'd known that piece-Erika was lying.
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Old 2010-01-02, 22:21   Link #1984
Kirroha
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I have a ask a question - since Battler's become the Endless Sorcerer, why can't he just rebut Erika with Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit? I was so confused in Ep5. I didn't know the red needed proof at all, as Beato has never actually bothered using it with proof. It seemed more like a premise description to me, so I really don't know how it became different in Ep5.
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Old 2010-01-02, 22:23   Link #1985
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
I have a ask a question - since Battler's become the Endless Sorcerer, why can't he just rebut Erika with Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit? I was so confused in Ep5. I didn't know the red needed proof at all, as Beato has never actually bothered using it with proof. It seemed more like a premise description to me, so I really don't know how it became different in Ep5.
If the detective side uses red they need proof of it happening. That's why it didn't work. Erika got Bern, a witch, to repeat all her red so it didn't apply to her in a way
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Old 2010-01-02, 22:32   Link #1986
k//eternal
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It would probably have worked after he became the Endless Sorc (who in addition to being a "witch" is also arguing for the witch side), which is what Kirroha is asking about.
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Old 2010-01-02, 23:08   Link #1987
maximilianjenus
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He did something similar to that with the gold anyway.

But first, to get this out of my systemFurudo Erika dies in all games prior to this one, she drowns while falling off the boat, only a miracle can save her from that.

Too bad that my theory on the kakera system means that is very likely that she will continue surviving now, just like what happens with the new worlds opened in rei.
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Old 2010-01-03, 00:34   Link #1988
Kirroha
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EP5 utterly confused me. But I still trust Ryuukishi to explain everything in due time. After all, this was the person who created Higurashi, and while at EP5 or 6 of Higurashi it was confusing too, though less since Higurashi had direct answer arcs.
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Old 2010-01-03, 00:56   Link #1989
Knicknevin
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Well, I said I'd go into a little more depth with the line of thought regarding Eva and Hideyoshi in Episode 1. And faked deaths, Battlers perspective etc.

Gonna spoiler it because it's huge.
Spoiler for Words words words:
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Old 2010-01-03, 12:23   Link #1990
pmoys
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Spoiler for ???? - ep 5:
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Demonology of Umineko (WIP)

Last edited by pmoys; 2010-01-03 at 12:45.
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Old 2010-01-03, 13:00   Link #1991
bigemperor
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What is your opinion about the modificaction made to the knox rules by r7?


Umineko Knox rule 2


Original knox rule 2
2. All supernaural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.



Umineko knox rule 9


Original knox rule 9
9. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader.
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Old 2010-01-03, 13:52   Link #1992
Kazuki_Kun
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After finishing Episode 5, all I can say is my poor, poor Natsuhi-oba san. :'(

I actually teared up when Failkastel was so cruel as to bring Natsuhi's last shred of pride down like that. And the whole sexual intimacy with Kinzo? Natsuhi is far too dignified and refined!

And yes, if you can't tell, Natsuhi is my favorite character.
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Old 2010-01-03, 13:52   Link #1993
TeeHee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigemperor View Post
What is your opinion about the modificaction made to the knox rules by r7?
I wouldn't get too hung up on it.

R7's point is simply that you should assume that he really did follow the rules of a traditional mystery, fantastic distractions included.

Last edited by TeeHee; 2010-01-03 at 13:53. Reason: snipped
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Old 2010-01-03, 14:11   Link #1994
k//eternal
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Also, some of the changes were necessary so that it wouldn't be an instant game over for the witch side. Imagine if the original #2 could be used as red text...
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Old 2010-01-03, 14:19   Link #1995
Matrim
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I finished it two days ago, I am still taking my time reading this thread but I want to ask something. What's up with Erika and her swimsuit? Do people really take their swimsuits on cruises in October in that area? Seems fishy to me.
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Old 2010-01-03, 14:20   Link #1996
June 1983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmoys View Post
Spoiler for ???? - ep 5:
I think Klash answered this a few pages ago, but the capitalized words are ones that she put emphasis on in Japanese by using "desu" after them. It's her speech pattern, but it's possible some of those words are something we should be paying attention to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrim View Post
I finished it two days ago, I am still taking my time reading this thread but I want to ask something. What's up with Erika and her swimsuit? Do people really take their swimsuits on cruises in October in that area? Seems fishy to me.
Maybe if there's a miracle involved ...
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Old 2010-01-03, 14:40   Link #1997
k//eternal
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It's not "desu", but the use of katakana. She ends sentences with them. (However, since she does end most of her sentences with "desu", it's often what turns to katakana.)

If Chiru was animated, the effect would be completely lost.
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Old 2010-01-03, 14:44   Link #1998
June 1983
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Ah, I understand. Sorry!

Yeah, I have a hard time imagining how it would come out vocally ...
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Old 2010-01-03, 15:00   Link #1999
Kamar
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If I had to guess, I'd say the idea was to evoke the English word "Death"....so you'd just have the VA pronounce their "desu" a little closer to "death"?
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Old 2010-01-03, 16:41   Link #2000
maximilianjenus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrim View Post
I finished it two days ago, I am still taking my time reading this thread but I want to ask something. What's up with Erika and her swimsuit? Do people really take their swimsuits on cruises in October in that area? Seems fishy to me.
Considering that the cousins "use swimsuits" while going to the beach, not in the days covered by the novel because of the typhoon, but the climate in rokkenjima must be pretty nice, sans storms; it's not weird for someone to be wearing a swimsuit while on a pleasure trip on the sea.

Also, something that interests me is what would have happened with erika's seals should natsuhi not be the one who broke them, but rather, any otehr adult/servant/child. Were they really setup specially for natsuhi ? or were they just general seals that would have caughtthe most suspicious person regardless of that being natsuhi or not ?
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