AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > To Aru Majutsu no Index

Notices

View Poll Results: How should とある be read as? (Please only respond if you know Japanese!)
To aru 20 66.67%
Toaru 10 33.33%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-11-25, 16:37   Link #1
GHDpro
Administrator
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Netherlands
Age: 35
To aru or Toaru?

For a long while it seems the established romanization of とある was To aru (with space between "to" and "aru").

However, it seems ANN (Index / Railgun), AniDB (Index / Railgun), Wikipedia (article), AnimeNFO (Index / Railgun) and MyAnimeList (Index / Railgun) have all switched to Toaru as romanization for とある.

My question, to those who are knowledgeable about this matter is: should AnimeSuki follow this trend or do they all have it wrong?

Now I study Japanese myself, and my initial impression was that と (to) is a particle and 或る (aru) is a verb, and thus putting a space in between is acceptable. On the other hand, my electronic dictionary (Canon G55) and Jisho.org indicate とある can also be read as 1 (whole) word. So I'm a bit confused, although a I do lean towards the opinion the sites I mentioned earlier seem to have taken.

A discussion about this topic can be found on the talk page of the old wiki article (before it was moved):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:To...jutsu_no_Index

Note: this issue was brought to my attention by forum member Sxerks
GHDpro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-25, 16:43   Link #2
Proto
Knowledge is the solution
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: U. of Pittsburgh, Previously in Mexico City.
Age: 29
と is a particle, ある is a verb, there is really no discussion or double standards about that. It's true that the to aru/to yomu/to iu grammar forms are quite common, however they remain two separate words regardless of their joint meaning.

However the confusion comes when it comes to romanization, since there is not a single standard out there. Technically, there are no spaces between Japanese words, so old Romanization standards often skipped spaces altogether and wrote everything in one string, or only wrote spaces between sentences, or wrote spaces wherever they wanted. AFAIK, some japanese people also do this when romanizing Japanese themselves. However, the most accepted standard in the Western community for romanization is to use a space between every single word, without regards whether they are part of the same paragraph/sentence/grammar construct.
Proto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-25, 17:42   Link #3
Miraluka
18 forever
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 24
I don't know japanesse very well but a lot of my friends uses "To + space+ another single word". This is the most used.
__________________

Deal with it!
Miraluka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-25, 17:43   Link #4
GHDpro
Administrator
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Netherlands
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
^ Wow, that was one short lived discussion...
Not really... check the Wikipedia page I mentioned - that is not exactly a "short discussion"

Proto put himself in the "To aru" camp, but I doubt he is the only AnimeSuki member with an opinion about this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
I don't know japanesse very well but a lot of my friends uses "To + space+ another single word". This is the most used.
Yes, the "to" particle used nearly everywhere else will be surrounded by spaces when romanized. This topic is about the specific case of "To aru".
GHDpro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-25, 18:39   Link #5
Sxerks
Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
If you take Japanese classes you will get the standard particle and verb education, though with most languages there are variations.

Many dictionaries also have it a one word, for example: ALC, and even an old dictionary

Also, oddly used on the official project-index website

But beyond that, it's usage and being at the beginning of a phrase point to a unique use.

I would suggest reading the analysis in the last part of the wiki talk page for more info.
Sxerks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-25, 19:43   Link #6
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 28
I don't think being both a particle + a verb and being a single word are mutually exclusive. There are several compound words in English with similar etymologies. "Insofar" "another" "however" etc. If the phrase is consistently used with a very specific meaning then it's a word, regardless of its component parts. If nothing else, I would think that consistency is the most important part of romanization, so if everyone else is treating it as a single word we should too.
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-25, 19:47   Link #7
serenade_beta
マジ天使
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Toaru. Have always thought this, still do. Toaru means something together, while to and aru have a seperate meaning as well, so just like the original JP, I prefer it to be Toaru.
__________________

-Tried to start a blog --> http://tdnshumi.blogspot.com/ (Mainly about video games)
-R.I.P. Hiroshi Yamauchi, Gaming wouldn't have been the same without you (9/19/13)
serenade_beta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-25, 19:54   Link #8
Ansalem
Speaker
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
I would have to agree with Clarste and others on the spelling of Toaru. While it's true that it is generally the standard to include a space between all words, and と and ある are in general separate words, one particle and one verb, the phrase とある constitutes a single word with a specific meaning, and should be romanized as Toaru accordingly.

Edit: This is actually similar to phrases like いってきます and いってらっしゃい. Despite being compound words, such as itte and kimasu, they are generally romanized as single words, ittekimasu and itterasshai, because they are set phrases with specific meanings.
__________________

Last edited by Ansalem; 2009-11-25 at 20:08.
Ansalem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-25, 20:37   Link #9
Proto
Knowledge is the solution
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: U. of Pittsburgh, Previously in Mexico City.
Age: 29
Quote:
Toaru. Have always thought this, still do. Toaru means something together, while to and aru have a seperate meaning as well, so just like the original JP, I prefer it to be Toaru.
Not really, given that in the original japanese they would be indistinguishable anyway. This is mainly a romanization issue, not really an issue on meaning.

While we are in this topic, is there a word for To omou, for to iu, to yomu and the rest of the to + verb family or something?
Proto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-25, 21:45   Link #10
Sxerks
Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
While we are in this topic, is there a word for To omou, for to iu, to yomu and the rest of the to + verb family or something?

と思う, という, and と読む don't appear to have definitions as stand alone words, とある appears to be unique. The second definition on the ALC page points out that it is used to recall a particular thing being drawn out of memory, and to express that idea of recalling that place, and that it can most often be translated as "a" or "an", which also alludes to the idea that the literal translation "a certain" may not be the one intended (but that's a different discussion)
Sxerks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-26, 00:24   Link #11
Master Assassin
Portable Dude Mk. II
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: All ghillied up spying on someone ~2,000 yards away using telescope sights.
Age: 25
... Even though the... uh, dictionary I have at hand tells me that the proper romanization would be Toaru (or so I think), I think I've been somewhat guilty (heh) for using the other romanization instead.
__________________
I like to run portable on my dude, so I ran while running runs in my portably portable, dude-like dude.

Kazuma Kamachi FC

Since we are all so trigger happy about certain behaviors that we do when talking about his works.

--- This line over here is a placeholder. ----
Master Assassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 18:52   Link #12
Sxerks
Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Any new objections to "toaru" that haven't already been refuted?
Sxerks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-11, 20:43   Link #13
Doraneko
The Owl of Minerva
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Not really, given that in the original japanese they would be indistinguishable anyway. This is mainly a romanization issue, not really an issue on meaning.

While we are in this topic, is there a word for To omou, for to iu, to yomu and the rest of the to + verb family or something?
とある is a single, specific phrase serving as a de facto adjective. Despite of its apparent similarity with clauses like と思う, と読む, と言う, と(insert verb),etc, the two hardly share the same construction in terms of practical usage..

I beg to disagree that romanization is completely separated from meaning, given that the Japanese language inherently has no space at all and the whole purpose of adding space in romanji is for improving clarity and facilitating understanding. But I digressed.

Anyway, for the purpose of translation and romanization: when in doubt of anything, do a research on how other professionals deal with it. For the sake of consistency, it is certainly a better idea to follow the common practice instead of making new inventions every day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by とある図書館のデータベース
本タイトル とある魔術の禁書目録(インデックス)
タイトル標目(カタカナ形(第2タイトル)) トアル/マジュツ/ノ/キンショ/モクロク
タイトル標目(ローマ字形) Toaru/majutsu/no/indekkusu
タイトル標目(Gのローマ字形) Toaru/majutsu/no/kinsho/mokuroku
http://library.city.joyo.kyoto.jp/Do...SyosNO=2488856
__________________
Twitter: Kailyu | Light novel review blog: novel.co.nr | Nanoha Force Next TL: 01 02 05

Last edited by Doraneko; 2009-12-11 at 20:55.
Doraneko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-02, 23:47   Link #14
Sxerks
Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
It's been over a month now.

So as far as the discussion goes no one is backing "to aru" at this point, and all the material presented points to "toaru".

For some reason people are "voting" in the poll the opposite way, which goes to show how reliable polls are. Non of those people are attempting to argue for what they voted for.

Now that it's been logically vetted to "toaru", is it going to be corrected?

Last edited by Sxerks; 2010-01-20 at 18:00.
Sxerks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-03, 00:35   Link #15
Miraluka
18 forever
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 24
The problem is that To Aru is the old way and the first way the people know this series, is pretty hard to change the costumes of the people.
__________________

Deal with it!
Miraluka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-03, 04:09   Link #16
tsunade666
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In my room
the first time I encounter index is TO ARU and up till now its still TO ARU. So I think its hard to change it plus I vote for TO ARU.
tsunade666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:01.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.