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Old 2010-01-02, 19:25   Link #6541
bladeofdarkness
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2nd'd
it was terribly executed
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Old 2010-01-02, 20:26   Link #6542
Charred Knight
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Zero Requiem is basically what happens when someone has two ideas that are not compatible and tries to connect them.

Lelouch needs to die repenting for his actions while at the same time trying to make him look like the evilest person the world has ever seen.

You can get the greatest writers the world has ever seen and they couldn't make it work.
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Old 2010-01-02, 20:42   Link #6543
azul120
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
really ?
and so agreeing that he might have to KILL NUNNALY is part of that ?

the question is simple
WHY is lelouch doing zero-requiem
why is it so importent that he would kill nunnaly to accomplish it
When he began Zero Requiem, he had no idea Nunnally was alive, and therefore he still had a death wish. The killing Nunnally choice would be the result of a Sadistic Choice scenario where as suggested, Nunnally might be in the way, and sparing her would screw absolutely everything over as far as he knew, and Nunnally had already been a Xanatos Gilligan in the past for him so many times, and so he would choose the rest of the world over her this time.

But yeah, it's all one big cluster f-bomb on every level.
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Old 2010-01-04, 05:30   Link #6544
Laurcus
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Yeah, I still don't understand the last story arc. Don't get me wrong, I think it's cool, sad, and entertaining all at the same time......but then the fridge logic kicks in and i'm left thinking. WTF!

Maybe if there's some HUGE piece of the puzzle we're missing that won't be revealed to us until they release an OVA or third season or something, then maybe I could live with that. Something that explains all of the strange decisions in a way that ACTUALLY makes sense, and maybe brings Lelouch back into the role of hero instead of suicidal evil dude.

Like Lelouch never made it out of C's world and the Lelouch we saw was his evil twin brother/robot replacement/clone. Mmhhmm. Makes perfect sense to me! I honestly think that trained monkeys could have done a better job with the last few episodes lol.

Imho they wasted too many episodes on staying in the chinese federation, and not enough time on explaining the ragnarock connection. Also I think it would have been more climactic if Schneizel was delt with first, make him use the Damocles in the last battle for tokyo. Then have a final big battle near Kaminejima that ends with Lelouch faceing Charles in C's world. Would have been a lot better from a storytelling point of view I think. But what do I know i'm just a fan right? That way we could have seen some very different character developement for Lelouch along the way.

Or cut out the Damocles completely. It seemed too advanced to me. Like their tech took a huge jump forward, even from the 9th gen KMFs. I would have also liked more scense where Lelouch talks about his motives near the end of the series. Like that one scene in the garden where Lelouch and Suzaku discuss ZR.
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Old 2010-01-05, 00:25   Link #6545
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It's been awhile, but wasn't ZR basically "The world is at peace because the guy who's been on the throne for a few months and barely influencing anything outside of the pacific ocean but map borders was assassinated and all the people involved in nuking several civilian filled locations including but not limited to Tokyo and the Capital of Britannia are now in power also now everything is completely collapsed because everyone's free of everyone else including everyone else's infrastructure so everyone's probably starving to death from broken supply lines and local warlords."? Because I totally never bought into that for obvious reasons.

Quote:
Or cut out the Damocles completely. It seemed too advanced to me. Like their tech took a huge jump forward, even from the 9th gen KMFs.
I'm gonna disagree with this, partly. There was nothing too advanced about it at all, it was a great application of everything witnessed thus far. The problem however is where it and everyone's aeronautical fleets came from since only a year prior float systems and energy shields were bleeding edge experimental tech, and there's also the matters of the price tag attached to what is essentially a terrestrial DEATH STAR and how anyone could possibly hide it both financially and physically to say nothing of how it pretty much had no function at all without FLEIJA upon which work only began late in the first season. It takes years to build ships and it takes even longer to build flying terror fortresses of doom.

As for the partly part: I fully endorse cutting it. If anything not having an untouchable base from which to lob WMDs at the enemy at your leisure might lead to a better battle. Perhaps even some tactics/strategy! Also the whole thing was just extremely silly.

Also for the cut: Pink sword.


Also to be on topic: I always saw Lelouch as a sort of competent Cobra Commander (I blame the mask) and as a the chief villain through the first season, I can't be the only one can I?
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Old 2010-01-05, 00:37   Link #6546
nick2951
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My Biggest problem with Zero Requiem is that one man's sins does not erase the sins of everyone else.

Other than Euphy's death (which ppeople in my opinion really need to get over; it was an accident afterall) Lelouch was not villain that everyone made him out to be. Even if he acted all evil in the end, it does not exonerate the bloody hands of Cornelia, Villette, Nunnally, ect.......

For Lelouch to pull a Jesus seems just.........dumb to me; Hell the world owes him more than anything else. The Japanese would still be Elevens if it weren't for Lelouch.
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Old 2010-01-05, 01:01   Link #6547
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Yeah, except Jesus didn't kill countless thousands (maybe millions) unnecessarily just to fulfill his own sense of gratification.
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Old 2010-01-05, 02:47   Link #6548
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander 598 View Post

Also to be on topic: I always saw Lelouch as a sort of competent Cobra Commander (I blame the mask) and as a the chief villain through the first season, I can't be the only one can I?
LMFAO! Oh yes, there's definitely a similarity there, especially at the end.

On topic:

Zero Requiem was a good idea that was poorly executed IMHO.
The more I rewatch this show the more it went from "Awesome" to "WTF???"
Once the visual beauty of the show wore off I started to really watch the show and the plot holes of the ZR just came screaming in at me.
The rest of CG is excellent (for the most part) but the last arc is bad, very bad IMHO.
Thus I agree with what the majority of you have posted here.

Most of the reasons for it have already been discussed here so I won't rehash them again in detail.
Blade, I think you're spot on in your analysis of ZR.
Seriously.
Especially when you asked this question:
WHY is lelouch doing zero-requiem
why is it so importent that he would kill nunnaly to accomplish it?


If Nunnally was his Moral Pet (and she was up until the last arc of R2 if I'm not mistaken) and his goal was to "create a better world for his sister Nunnally" then why the Zero Requiem and why the sudden change in persona?
That was not written well IMHO.
Especially when he seems to have reverted back to his original character after Suzaku runs him through.

Lelouch went from "It was not me who was wrong, it was the world" to becoming the Demon Emperor who did exactly the same kinds of things that the "world" he thought was so wrong did.
That's circular and hypicritical which seemed to diminish Lelouch's intellectual level and that was not kosher with me.
Killing more people doesn't erase what Euphie was forced to do.
Owning up to what you've done (admitting to the world who and what you are, like in Pink Floyd's The Wall) is really paying for your crimes.

Why the writers chose the Zero Requiem boggles my mind.
It seems like something Shingi Ikari would do not Lelouch Britannia/Zero, and I think that may be part of the problem. They might have been trying to emulate Neon Genesis Evangelion a little bit with the ending.
The Ragnarok Connection was clearly a play on the Intrumentality Project as was the anti-FLEIJA spear device that even looked similar to the Lance of Longiness.

The Zero Requiem left me asking what happened to the Knight of Justice?
I understand the concept of ZR, and what its purpose was, but its execution in the anime leaves much to be desired.
Thus I concur with Revolutionist, Blade, Charred Knight, azul120, Laucrus, Commander 598, and nick2951.
The Zero Requiem was FUBAR in the military sense of the phrase.
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Old 2010-01-05, 05:15   Link #6549
Laurcus
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Originally Posted by Commander 598 View Post
It's been awhile, but wasn't ZR basically "The world is at peace because the guy who's been on the throne for a few months and barely influencing anything outside of the pacific ocean but map borders was assassinated and all the people involved in nuking several civilian filled locations including but not limited to Tokyo and the Capital of Britannia are now in power also now everything is completely collapsed because everyone's free of everyone else including everyone else's infrastructure so everyone's probably starving to death from broken supply lines and local warlords."? Because I totally never bought into that for obvious reasons.



I'm gonna disagree with this, partly. There was nothing too advanced about it at all, it was a great application of everything witnessed thus far. The problem however is where it and everyone's aeronautical fleets came from since only a year prior float systems and energy shields were bleeding edge experimental tech, and there's also the matters of the price tag attached to what is essentially a terrestrial DEATH STAR and how anyone could possibly hide it both financially and physically to say nothing of how it pretty much had no function at all without FLEIJA upon which work only began late in the first season. It takes years to build ships and it takes even longer to build flying terror fortresses of doom.

As for the partly part: I fully endorse cutting it. If anything not having an untouchable base from which to lob WMDs at the enemy at your leisure might lead to a better battle. Perhaps even some tactics/strategy! Also the whole thing was just extremely silly.

Also for the cut: Pink sword.


Also to be on topic: I always saw Lelouch as a sort of competent Cobra Commander (I blame the mask) and as a the chief villain through the first season, I can't be the only one can I?
I didn't mean that they didn't have the tech for Damocles, so much as it was implemented too fast. Like you said, it should take years to build something like that. Their technology that they use in battle jumped so fast. Wasn't the Lancelot an experimental "toy" at the start of season 1?

Granted the Lancelot did prove it itself incredibly well, but wasn't it 7th generation? Then within a year (or 2?) 9th gen KMFs were rampaging on the battlefield.

I still think that the only way for ZR to make any sense is that an evil Lelouch clone trapped Lelouch in C's world in episode 21 of R2. Then he faked his death so he could implement some (stupid) diabolical plan that seems like the kind of thing Sarge from red vs blue would think of. And that's what I tell myself every night so I can sleep.
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Old 2010-01-05, 07:20   Link #6550
bladeofdarkness
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the tech thing is not the real problem

its possible the damocles began construction even before they perfected the float unit tech (it was being developed for years before it was implemented) with the intention of having it use the float unit tech once its completely effective
and even without the flejia's, an untouchable fortress filled to the brim with the most advance weapons in the world (imagine an army of KMF's on par with the lancelot) while the rest of the world is stuck using 4th and 5th gens is still a VERY good way to establish deterrence (its only rakshata's tech that levels the playing field)
its less effective then the flejia, but still a very threatening proposition

the air fleets on both sides are understandable once you remember that you had none-float-unit based air weapons before the float units became so readily available
it could be that the OOBK's float units are old models retrofited with float units (like the land based pyramids the CF uses)

the 9th gen isn't that hard to believe once you remember that aside from the energy wings, the albion is practicely the exact model as the original lancelot, with slightly stronger versions of the same weapons, while the guren simply adds Lloyd's tech (harken boosters, MVS) to the pre-existing guren
and the energy wing system was apparently in the works for years (rakshata recognizes that its cecile's handy work despite not seeing her for years)

as for the pink sword... no excuse


but the REAL problem lies with the fact that the entire nature of the ending depends on an absurd series of fortunate events that are entirely a result of blind luck

what if shnizel insisted on using the flejia before the OOBK attacked in order to destory much of Lelouch's army - Lelouch wouldn't stand a chance even before the battle started.

what if the black knights didn't sink the avalon - would Lloyd cecile nina and sayoko be doomed to forever be seen as Lelouch's collaborators (they couldn't "betray" him and free the hostages) and killed or imprisoned for it.

what if nunnaly didn't get her eyes back just in time to be geassed - would Lelouch have to kill her to prevent her from just pressing the button and vaporizing the damocles along with both of them on it ?

what if the dual between Suzaku and Kallen ended any other way then how it did - what if one of them died in the fight - either the plan is screwed and Lelouch is dead or unable to complete the "zero" aspect of "zero requiem". or Lelouch's intention of keeping kallen safe by keeping her out of the loop ended up getting her killed instead at the hands of one of his closet allies (a re-play of what happened to sheirly)

even lesser ones bring about a downer ending

do you really think the ending would have been a happy one if shnizel told lelouch to either surrender or he would kill nunnaly, and Lelouch said "fine" ?
do you really think kallen would be giving such an "understanding" epilogue if all of her friends died in a fiery crush when the ikaruga was destroyed ?
what if neither kallen nor nunnaly figured out the truth of the plan, would they spend their lives believing lelouch was a monster ?

the entire "happy" nature of the ending as the directors put it, lies in the absurd result of the final battle that sees practicly every KMF destoryed or badly damage, and sinks both of the main ships
and results only in the death of diethard

even if you REMOVE all the plot holes and wallbangers
the mere fact that the entire happy nature of the ending rest on a baffling case of blind luck is in itself absurd
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Old 2010-01-05, 08:35   Link #6551
fertygo
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geez... its not good way to critics the story dude... too many "what if" in your argument, as a writer of myself i will mad if someone criticize me about how of my chara act and why not do something else, tsk its like to quest "why hitler choose to hide in banker" IMHO.
Usually writers make chara's acting based by his personal subjective view about the chara. I can't explain its properly but Whatever your view about Schneizel u will found there no way Schneizel do something like throw FLEIA before Lelouch attack or something like that, its not his nature. I will be more angry if the writers have Schneizel not lure lelou into nunnaly, it even will be more drastic change than lelou behaviour after back from world of C.

And about what if suzaku or kallen dies from the duel, lelou can be always change suzaku (Zero) role to kallen or even C.C or more tragically lelou use random guy geassed by him to be zero , and nothing will change about lelou plan.

But yeah the ZR arc have very big problem on the pacing, and make the script looked very bad.
I think if this is a 3 or 4 cour series, it will be more balance on the pace and everything will looked be more understandable. Now everything already settled, I don't know why the writers make things very ambiguous like this, its only there be 3 conditions why its very Ambiguous.

1. The writer is dumb or pressured, as someone uphere mentioned. So he can't compile nicely what of he write.
2. They just want to keep milking us with Geass series, and don't want the R2 explain everything.
3. Its the writer style to left some of part is unexplained and subjective. Sometime we across with this type of writer, many will call the writing is sucks but if the project is success (on term of selling) many people will keep discussing because found its "fun" to discuss that unexplained and absurd thing, and if that's what happened the writers will not care if everybody call him/her sucks

Last edited by fertygo; 2010-01-05 at 08:58. Reason: tch, damn typo
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Old 2010-01-05, 08:51   Link #6552
bladeofdarkness
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my problem was that the "happy ending" nature of the plan depends entirely on factors that come down to luck
blind luck

take any one of my examples and apply it to the story (all things that are very likely to happen) and you fuck up the "happy ending"

Quote:
Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
And about what if suzaku or kallen dies from the duel, lelou can be always change suzaku (Zero) role to kallen or even C.C or more tragically lelou use random guy geassed by him to be zero , and nothing will change about lelou plan.
my problem isn't whether or not he can move on with the plan
my problem is that its hard to portray the plan in a positive light
the only reason why the entire insanity of zero-requiem is viewed as positive is because the ending gives off a "shiny happy people" vibe to it
and thats because despite all the shit lelouch does, he never actually hurts anyone the viewers might care about (sorry diethard fans, if you exist )
have the results of his actions kill either nunnaly, kallen, or kaguya, and Lelouch goes from visionary messiah figure, to complete douche
thats what i ment
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Old 2010-01-05, 09:06   Link #6553
Laurcus
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Lol I gotta agree with you there Blade. I never thought about how the whole "happy ending" was so luck based. The ending seems kinda silly when I think of it that way. Not saying that I don't find the ending to be entertaining, but I just kinda laugh at it a bit .

In all seriousness, the only way it could make sense to me is if Lelouch had some kind of big secret that we all still don't understand, (I was joking about the clone thing a couple posts back) but if they don't do a direct continuation of R2 all we're left with is a bunch of plotholes lol.

Who knows, maybe the upcomming manga will make us think of the ending of R2 a bit differently. Seems unlikely since it's set in the Edo period but hey you never know it's code geass.

Another thing I find interesting is it's almost like they're using Rehtoric in the final few scenes to make the ending seem better. Take away the monologue by Kallen and the happy sounding music. Then how many people would have thought that the ending is happy?
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Old 2010-01-05, 15:23   Link #6554
fertygo
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Honestly i don't think ZR ending is very happy, its more like over dramatic ending (but its good actually)
But if that true everyone think ZR arc is happy ending even without monoloque by kallen, i think nothing will change with that perception.
People will think lelou dies is sad with the excellent seiyuu acting
The fact Nunnaly cries on front of lelou, and C.C switch to horo mode is enough for everyone think its as a happy/good ending.
And its not the first story with the protagonist "die for everyone sake" you will found this cliche scenario still can be loved by audience even without the messiah image, its just a matter of "charisma" the protagonist/antagonist who died IMHO.
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Old 2010-01-05, 15:28   Link #6555
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
Honestly i don't think ZR ending is very happy, its more like over dramatic ending (but its good actually)
But if that true everyone think ZR arc is happy ending even without monoloque by kallen, i think nothing will change with that perception.
People will think lelou dies is sad with the excellent seiyuu acting
The fact Nunnaly cries on front of lelou, and C.C switch to horo mode is enough for everyone think its as a happy/good ending.
And its not the first story with the protagonist "die for everyone sake" you will found this cliche scenario still can be loved by audience even without the messiah image, its just a matter of "charisma" the protagonist/antagonist who died IMHO.
who is the "everyone" in this scenario ?
you cant show 5 billion people saying "gee, life sure is better since lulu kicked" now can you ?
you need recognizable characters being "happy" to have a "happy ending", and you cant do that if any of the things i listed about were to happen
its only a "happy ending" because, as the writer put it

Quote:
Okouchi: Which is why I think of both our and Lelouch's decision as Happy Ends. I believe that there will be better things in the tomorrow awaiting Nunnally, Kallen and the rest who have been left behind. And surely Lelouch, who was able to make this into a reality, can only be happy [about this].
see what i mean ?
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Old 2010-01-05, 15:53   Link #6556
fertygo
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I'm only just talk about lelou "type of death" on that line, yeah kallen monoloque add some vibes of "happy" for the ending. But i think even without that scenes, nothing will change about that dude. the conclusion with C.C goes to horo mode is more than enough to give vibes of "happy"

If Kallen dies and suzaku still go "plan A" ?
Its only will broke "the stabbing drama" and maybe this scenario will not have many fans like now
But the "happy" vibes is still there with C.C monoloque.
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Old 2010-01-05, 16:02   Link #6557
bladeofdarkness
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I'm only just talk about lelou "type of death" on that line, yeah kallen monoloque add some vibes of "happy" for the ending. But i think even without that scenes, nothing will change about that dude. the conclusion with C.C goes to horo mode is more than enough to give vibes of "happy"

If Kallen dies and suzaku still go "plan A" ?
Its only will broke "the stabbing drama" and maybe this scenario will not have many fans like now
But the "happy" vibes is still there with C.C monoloque.
actually, kallen dying during the fight with suzaku changes the ENTIRE tone, as would nunnaly dying
you can say that there is a "happy" vibe in C.C's monoloque, but thats only because none of the characters Lelouch actually cares about were hurt during the battle
in other words, lelouch got what he wanted
a better future for those people he left behind

how is it still a happy ending if the people lelouch loves end up getting killed because of his actions ?
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Old 2010-01-05, 16:26   Link #6558
fertygo
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
actually, kallen dying during the fight with suzaku changes the ENTIRE tone, as would nunnaly dying
you can say that there is a "happy" vibe in C.C's monoloque, but thats only because none of the characters Lelouch actually cares about were hurt during the battle
in other words, lelouch got what he wanted
a better future for those people he left behind

how is it still a happy ending if the people lelouch loves end up getting killed because of his actions ?
I'm confused now.
you're saying this is a "happy" ending on perceptive of who ?
If you talk about lelou PoV, yes its do not happy afterall.

But for the viewer maybe will be different. They're will think lelou dies after all the tragedy hit him is sad, and C.C saying the world is now on the peace will still give the heroic and "happy" vibes, but the difference is maybe everyone not get the "happy" feeling with this kind of scenario, but i think the majority will still think that a happy ending, with some a fact like the world on a peace now, C.C goes to horo mode, jeremiah became lolicon, and e.t.c. yes it is a "happy" ending, no doubt about its, at least for me.

oh god... the ending will became epic if that what really happened

EDIT: really feel i'm hijacking this thread now, will wait more user give a reply before post something again
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Old 2010-01-05, 17:25   Link #6559
bladeofdarkness
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my point was that part of what MAKES the ending a "happy" one, is that even though lelouch is dead, he would be happy to know that the people he loves are happy and safe in the better world he created for them
lelouch dying is made LESS sad, with the knowledge that he had, in fact, achieved what he wanted most of all
a better world for those he loves

if lelouch's actions end up KILLING the people he loves and wants to create a better world for, then he is not only dead
he dies knowing that the people he loves and wanted to protect, ended up dying because of his actions
its a total downer ending
a Pyrrhic victory from lelouch's personal prospective
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Old 2010-01-05, 17:45   Link #6560
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander 598 View Post
It's been awhile, but wasn't ZR basically "The world is at peace because the guy who's been on the throne for a few months and barely influencing anything outside of the pacific ocean but map borders was assassinated and all the people involved in nuking several civilian filled locations including but not limited to Tokyo and the Capital of Britannia are now in power also now everything is completely collapsed because everyone's free of everyone else including everyone else's infrastructure so everyone's probably starving to death from broken supply lines and local warlords."? Because I totally never bought into that for obvious reasons.



I'm gonna disagree with this, partly. There was nothing too advanced about it at all, it was a great application of everything witnessed thus far. The problem however is where it and everyone's aeronautical fleets came from since only a year prior float systems and energy shields were bleeding edge experimental tech, and there's also the matters of the price tag attached to what is essentially a terrestrial DEATH STAR and how anyone could possibly hide it both financially and physically to say nothing of how it pretty much had no function at all without FLEIJA upon which work only began late in the first season. It takes years to build ships and it takes even longer to build flying terror fortresses of doom.

As for the partly part: I fully endorse cutting it. If anything not having an untouchable base from which to lob WMDs at the enemy at your leisure might lead to a better battle. Perhaps even some tactics/strategy! Also the whole thing was just extremely silly.

Also for the cut: Pink sword.


Also to be on topic: I always saw Lelouch as a sort of competent Cobra Commander (I blame the mask) and as a the chief villain through the first season, I can't be the only one can I?
Given that his chief opponent was an empire on par with Nazi Germany, how can you say that?
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