AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Code Geass

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-01-05, 17:50   Link #6561
Nobodyman9
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: U.S.A.
Age: 26
Personally, I always saw the ending of Code Geass as bittersweet. A better world has been created, but many people have suffered and died along the way, even to the end. Can't be all that happy when the main character dies, now can it?

Yes, I suppose you could say it's a happy end since the protagonist got what he wanted (Whoopty damn do. Since when does anyone, especially Lelouch, have a clue about what they want?) but if that's what he wanted was to ensure that everyone he loved would be happy and safe, well...even that's not a foolproof. Yes, he created a world that would be a lot more safer for those he loved (through dumb luck as blade pointed out) but who says that Nunnally won't get assassinated or that Kallen won't be shot by a random mugger? It all just ties into Lelouch's ego and the illusion of control that he thinks he has.

Now, this is just my opinion, but the way I see it is you can't give people happiness, they need to seek their own happiness. And you can't ensure that people are going to be safe and alive because existence always comes with the risk of death, no matter what the circumstance. Not that it's a bad thing to want to change the world for the better. I think it's quite admirable to want to change the world so that people, on the whole, can have better lives and not live safer then great. But doing it for just a handful of your loved ones, to ensure that they'll be happy safe (as well as gratifying your own sense of justice to punish yourself) IMO, is doing it for the wrong reasons.

Also, what about the people who have already died? Can't really give a future to them, now can you? Code Geass is not a happy story, so it really shouldn't have a happy ending. The only way I could see Code Geass having a happy ending is if they somehow resurrected everyone who had died (particularly Euphie and Shirley) by going back in time or magically bringing them back to life or something and there be world peace and all that, but I really don't see that happening. The Code Geass ending we got was good I suppose, but they just made it so stupid and convoluted.
Nobodyman9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 17:55   Link #6562
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Personally, I always saw the ending of Code Geass as bittersweet. A better world has been created, but many people have suffered and died along the way, even to the end. Can't be all that happy when the main character dies, now can it?

Yes, I suppose you could say it's a happy end since the protagonist got what he wanted (Whoopty damn do. Since when does anyone, especially Lelouch, have a clue about what they want?) but if that's what he wanted was to ensure that everyone he loved would be happy and safe, well...even that's not a foolproof. Yes, he created a world that would be a lot more safer for those he loved (through dumb luck as blade pointed out) but who says that Nunnally won't get assassinated or that Kallen won't be shot by a random mugger? It all just ties into Lelouch's ego and the illusion of control that he thinks he has.

Now, this is just my opinion, but the way I see it is you can't give people happiness, they need to seek their own happiness. And you can't ensure that people are going to be safe and alive because existence always comes with the risk of death, no matter what the circumstance. Not that it's a bad thing to want to change the world for the better. I think it's quite admirable to want to change the world so that people, on the whole, can have better lives and not live safer then great. But doing it for just a handful of your loved ones, to ensure that they'll be happy safe (as well as gratifying your own sense of justice to punish yourself) IMO, is doing it for the wrong reasons.

Also, what about the people who have already died? Can't really give a future to them, now can you? Code Geass is not a happy story, so it really shouldn't have a happy ending. The only way I could see Code Geass having a happy ending is if they somehow resurrected everyone who had died (particularly Euphie and Shirley) by going back in time or magically bringing them back to life or something and there be world peace and all that, but I really don't see that happening. The Code Geass ending we got was good I suppose, but they just made it so stupid and convoluted.
actually, my point was that if lelouch's actions ended up CAUSING the deaths of those he left behind, then the ending would go from bittersweet to downer ending
yes, not everything is as great as it could be, and nothing is certain in the future
but there is a world of difference between the uncertainty of what could happen in the future, and the certainty of knowing lelouch had ended up killing the few precious people he had left, as a result of his egocentric bid for social change

the ending, as is, ranges from happy to bittersweet
having lelouch's actions result in the deaths of the very people he was trying to protect, would have made it a downer one
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 18:03   Link #6563
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 24
My theory is that all Lelouch's bad luck was threatening to turn into a giant lizard that would have devoured all the pizza on Earth. Sensing this, C.C. told Lelouch about this cosmic inbalance and together, they devised a plan to use the current state of the universe to their advantage.
It took them a month or so to get their complaint through, but eventually the Powers That Be realized that venting all their frustrations on a single human being for years hadn't been a nice thing to do, and so they gave Lelouch a bag of Pure Luck in the size of the rocks they'd been throwing on him the whole time.
And voilą, Zero Requiem.

Did I mention I'm perfectly fine with the ending?
All right, so I wouldn't have minded if someone had randomly mentioned Clovis a few times to add to the epicness, but... oh well.
Can't have everything.

And Schneizel not threatening to kill Nunnaly wasn't just luck. He thought Lelouch had turned into a power-hungry evil overlord, after all. So he could have just assumed his brother had gone mad from losing his beloved darling sister, but I think believing that Lelouch was past the point where he'd make a complete turn-around was perfectly legitimate.
More importantly, even if Schneizel had threatened to kill Nunnally, he wouldn't have gone through with it (I'm pretty sure Lelouch wouldn't have just given in, by the way). Whatever for? Make Lelouch lose whatever inhibitions he might have left by killing her in front of his very eyes? Hell, he could have faked even that.
And Schneizel is pretty much an utilitarian. Killing people when there's no point to it isn't his way of going about things.

Suzaku and Kallen.... come on, we know Lelouch has the kind of faith in Suzaku other people might have in God (and the other way around). All right, so it was still risky, especially for Kallen, and yes, some of the points raised in this discussion are perfectly valid, but it's not bad enough to make me so utterly dissatisfied by the ending.
In fact, I love it. Not as much as I love Lelouch or Clovis or Suzaku, but I love it.
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 18:08   Link #6564
Nobodyman9
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: U.S.A.
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
actually, my point was that if lelouch's actions ended up CAUSING the deaths of those he left behind, then the ending would go from bittersweet to downer ending
yes, not everything is as great as it could be, and nothing is certain in the future
but there is a world of difference between the uncertainty of what could happen in the future, and the certainty of knowing lelouch had ended up killing the few precious people he had left, as a result of his egocentric bid for social change

the ending, as is, ranges from happy to bittersweet
having lelouch's actions result in the deaths of the very people he was trying to protect, would have made it a downer one
And on that I'll agree. Still, it would have been quite the bit of poetic justice (a dark poetic justice, mind you) if they had died and thus Lelouch would have paid for his "egocentric bid for social change." But as you said, downer ending.
Nobodyman9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 18:20   Link #6565
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
My theory is that all Lelouch's bad luck was threatening to turn into a giant lizard that would have devoured all the pizza on Earth. Sensing this, C.C. told Lelouch about this cosmic inbalance and together, they devised a plan to use the current state of the universe to their advantage.
It took them a month or so to get their complaint through, but eventually the Powers That Be realized that venting all their frustrations on a single human being for years hadn't been a nice thing to do, and so they gave Lelouch a bag of Pure Luck in the size of the rocks they'd been throwing on him the whole time.
And voilą, Zero Requiem.

Did I mention I'm perfectly fine with the ending?
All right, so I wouldn't have minded if someone had randomly mentioned Clovis a few times to add to the epicness, but... oh well.
Can't have everything.

And Schneizel not threatening to kill Nunnaly wasn't just luck. He thought Lelouch had turned into a power-hungry evil overlord, after all. So he could have just assumed his brother had gone mad from losing his beloved darling sister, but I think believing that Lelouch was past the point where he'd make a complete turn-around was perfectly legitimate.
More importantly, even if Schneizel had threatened to kill Nunnally, he wouldn't have gone through with it (I'm pretty sure Lelouch wouldn't have just given in, by the way). Whatever for? Make Lelouch lose whatever inhibitions he might have left by killing her in front of his very eyes? Hell, he could have faked even that.
And Schneizel is pretty much an utilitarian. Killing people when there's no point to it isn't his way of going about things.

Suzaku and Kallen.... come on, we know Lelouch has the kind of faith in Suzaku other people might have in God (and the other way around). All right, so it was still risky, especially for Kallen, and yes, some of the points raised in this discussion are perfectly valid, but it's not bad enough to make me so utterly dissatisfied by the ending.
In fact, I love it. Not as much as I love Lelouch or Clovis or Suzaku, but I love it.
do you really find no problems with the "blind luck based" result ?
i mean really...
its not like the powers that be are just having fun by playing around with lelouch for the hell of it
they are trying to teach him a moral lesson, which he repeatedly refuses to learn
stop being a douche
stop pretending to be a hero, and BE a hero
stop pretending to be the symbol of justice just to advance your own hidden agenda, and BECOME the symbol of justice for real
but he refuses to learn

every time you accidently get the sense that "the universe screws lulu over"
its really just karma knocking on his door and telling him to clean up his act and stop being such a dick (every single thing that happens to him, save for what happens when he is 8, can be traced back to something he did)

so instead of learning his lesson and behaving himself, he instead opts to "go out with a bang" instead
its nice to know that his character is at least consistent in THAT regard (because the rest of his characterization got shot to hell during the last arc)
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 18:26   Link #6566
Nobodyman9
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: U.S.A.
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
so instead of learning his lesson and behaving himself, he instead opts to "go out with a bang" instead
its nice to know that his character is at least consistent in THAT regard (because the rest of his characterization got shot to hell during the last arc)
It was at this point that I think the powers that be decided, "Ah fuck it, we're not getting through to this guy. Let's just let him kill himself and be done with it. The world would be a better place without him."

Nobodyman9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 18:31   Link #6567
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
do you really find no problems with the "blind luck based" result ?
i mean really...
I explicitly stated that I don't think the last arc is perfect.
Just that the flaws don't bother me nearly as much as they do you, and that I don't go around digging for non-obvious ones.

Quote:
its not like the powers that be are just having fun by playing around with lelouch for the hell of it
they are trying to teach him a moral lesson, which he repeatedly refuses to learn
stop being a douche
Maybe because life also tends to screw him over when he's just learned his lesson?
Take the Euphie thing, for example. I know you think Lelouch was being a horrible ass there, which is true, but he realized that in the end and acknowledged defeat. Looking at how screwed up and revenge-focused he's been for the longest time, I think that was all that anyone could have asked of him.
And what happens?
A cute little massacre. Great way to teach a boy with enough issues as it is a lesson. It's like seeing a child run towards a hot plate after having been told that that's bad, waiting until it stops and realizes its mistake, and then shoving it into the oven.
Now, the child is not a moral agent and can not be blamed for its actions to begin with, but the method of teaching is about as and humane and effective. Not to mention Lelouch has been screwed over enough in his life to deserve some leniency.
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 18:54   Link #6568
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
really ?
he learned his lesson after euphie ?

well... what does he do immediately after his geass goes out of control ?

you see, learning your lesson, only works if you actually LEARN it
if you automaticlly fall back on your old douchebag self when things AREN'T perfect, then you've learned nothing
but instead of owning up to what HE did, he BLAMES it on euphie and exploits it to his advantage
one would at least hope he'd recognize the sacrifice and at least man up and do what he has to do to the end
but he ditches the black rebellion in the middle of the battle, the moment he's at risk of losing something he REALLY cares about

see what i ment about pretending to be a hero as opposed to actually BEING one

it is at THIS point that i would like to raise my idea of what makes lelouch/zero different then say ... Bruce Wayne/batman
in the case of batman, the identity of batman is a means by which Bruce Wayne can act on his true ideology and ethics
his civilian ID is a fake persona whicl batman is who he really is
batman is a symbol through which he can BE HIMSELF

this is NOT the case for lelouch/zero
zero is NOT a persona by which lelouch is able to enact his own "real" self
instead, the mask of zero is a tool that allows lelouch to PRETEND to be a heroic figure, in order to RALLY PEOPLE TO HIS SIDE
zero's stated ideals and Lelouch's actual world view are NOT the same, and lelouch admits this at several points during the story
SOME of the views he expresses as zero might be beliefs he also holds on his own, but his real goals and methods are far from his stated ones as zero
while, as zero, he claims to champion the weak and fight for justice, lelouch admits that he only created zero for nunnaly, and admits to suzaku that the mask is simply a tool to gather support for his cause

THIS is the main thing about lelouch
lelouch is not a mask clad hero
lelouch is using the mask in order to PRETEND to be a mask clad hero, BECAUSE IT SELLS !!!
while his real self is far from it
a fact that is demonstrated repeatedly throughout the story
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 19:12   Link #6569
morbosfist
Spinning Lotus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
you see, learning your lesson, only works if you actually LEARN it
if you automaticlly fall back on your old douchebag self when things AREN'T perfect, then you've learned nothing
but instead of owning up to what HE did, he BLAMES it on euphie and exploits it to his advantage
one would at least hope he'd recognize the sacrifice and at least man up and do what he has to do to the end
but he ditches the black rebellion in the middle of the battle, the moment he's at risk of losing something he REALLY cares about
You're deliberately trying to paint his actions in the worst possible manner to make yourself right. A nation of pissed off Japanese would not be placated by "I didn't mean for that to happen, my bad." If you think they would, you're delusional. Lelouch made the best of a bad situation, plain and simple. He made Euphie's death into something that benefited the Japanese people (or at least would have barring other factors). Him abandoning the battle was an emotional reaction to losing the one person in the world he cares about, and you can't honestly say you wouldn't do the same if, for example, your daughter was in danger and you could do something about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
it is at THIS point that i would like to raise my idea of what makes lelouch/zero different then say ... Bruce Wayne/batman
in the case of batman, the identity of batman is a means by which Bruce Wayne can act on his true ideology and ethics
his civilian ID is a fake persona whicl batman is who he really is
batman is a symbol through which he can BE HIMSELF

this is NOT the case for lelouch/zero
zero is NOT a persona by which lelouch is able to enact his own "real" self
instead, the mask of zero is a tool that allows lelouch to PRETEND to be a heroic figure, in order to RALLY PEOPLE TO HIS SIDE
zero's stated ideals and Lelouch's actual world view are NOT the same, and lelouch admits this at several points during the story
SOME of the views he expresses as zero might be beliefs he also holds on his own, but his real goals and methods are far from his stated ones as zero
while, as zero, he claims to champion the weak and fight for justice, lelouch admits that he only created zero for nunnaly, and admits to suzaku that the mask is simply a tool to gather support for his cause
Apples and oranges. Batman is a crime fighter, not a revolutionary. These two things are very different. Batman works alone (or with a partner or two) on purpose, because that's what is necessary.

Zero needs followers. One man cannot fight a war. Just because his stated ideals and own ideals do not match, which is true of any politician (ever heard of PR?), does not mean that the two are mutually exclusive, nor that he was not going to honor the PR deal (which he was, quite explicitly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
THIS is the main thing about lelouch
lelouch is not a mask clad hero
lelouch is using the mask in order to PRETEND to be a mask clad hero, BECAUSE IT SELLS !!!
while his real self is far from it
a fact that is demonstrated repeatedly throughout the story
What's your point? As noted above, most politicians are a far cry from their idealized personae, but this does not change the fact that they do make an effort to make good on the promises they have made, and this is no less true for Lelouch.
__________________
morbosfist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 19:19   Link #6570
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
You're deliberately trying to paint his actions in the worst possible manner to make yourself right. A nation of pissed off Japanese would not be placated by "I didn't mean for that to happen, my bad." If you think they would, you're delusional. Lelouch made the best of a bad situation, plain and simple. He made Euphie's death into something that benefited the Japanese people (or at least would have barring other factors). Him abandoning the battle was an emotional reaction to losing the one person in the world he cares about, and you can't honestly say you wouldn't do the same if, for example, your daughter was in danger and you could do something about it.
i would agree with you, if he did it FOR the japanese people
but as later shown, the japanese liberation cause wasn't really what he was after
it was a side-effect of it, and if the choice is between a fate of an entire nation of 100 million people, or his little sister...
my point was that i could agree with the fact that what he did with euphie was NEEDED if he did it for a greater cause
he DIDN'T


Quote:
Apples and oranges. Batman is a crime fighter, not a revolutionary. These two things are very different. Batman works alone (or with a partner or two) on purpose, because that's what is necessary.

Zero needs followers. One man cannot fight a war. Just because his stated ideals and own ideals do not match, which is true of any politician (ever heard of PR?), does not mean that the two are mutually exclusive, nor that he was not going to honor the PR deal (which he was, quite explicitly).

What's your point? As noted above, most politicians are a far cry from their idealized personae, but this does not change the fact that they do make an effort to make good on the promises they have made, and this is no less true for Lelouch.
my point about batman and zero is that zero is NOT lelouch's real personality, enabled through the mask
zero is a recruitment tool

lelouch isn't running for political office
he isn't trying to work as part of the system
lelouch is setting himself up as a symbol if justice, and thats the REASON why people follow him
they BELIEVE HIM to be something he isn't, but is PRETENDING to be

he SAYS one thing, and DOES another
and in fact, the things he does are SO completely different from what he says, that the moment his followers find out, they try to kill him
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 19:21   Link #6571
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
really ?
he learned his lesson after euphie ?

well... what does he do immediately after his geass goes out of control ?

you see, learning your lesson, only works if you actually LEARN it
After you have shoved the kid into the stove for being sensible for once, don't expect it to give a damn afterwards.

Quote:
if you automaticlly fall back on your old douchebag self when things AREN'T perfect, then you've learned nothing
Learning is a process.
Lelouch has a lot of issues. Sorting them out needs time.

Quote:
but instead of owning up to what HE did, he BLAMES it on euphie and exploits it to his advantage
Uh, and what would he have achieved by taking the blame? Certainly not world peace.
Lelouch's way of honouring the dead is too keep on fighting, and corpses tend not to care about their reputation.
(By the way, what would you want him to do? Hand himself over for punishment, and cause his sister as well as a lot of other people even more grief? That's Suzaku's version of justice, and maybe yours, but not Lelouch's, and not mine.)

Quote:
one would at least hope he'd recognize the sacrifice and at least man up and do what he has to do to the end
but he ditches the black rebellion in the middle of the battle, the moment he's at risk of losing something he REALLY cares about
Well, yes, sister complex. Nunnally was his world, and with that kind of history, I don't blame him.
The massacre didn't make him any more psychologically stable, by the way.

Quote:
it is at THIS point that i would like to raise my idea of what makes lelouch/zero different then say ... Bruce Wayne/batman
in the case of batman, the identity of batman is a means by which Bruce Wayne can act on his true ideology and ethics
his civilian ID is a fake persona whicl batman is who he really is
batman is a symbol through which he can BE HIMSELF
I'm not an expert on batman, but I doubt he's a teenager, and I have no idea if he has a comparable shitty past that could screw with his morals.

Quote:
this is NOT the case for lelouch/zero
zero is NOT a persona by which lelouch is able to enact his own "real" self
instead, the mask of zero is a tool that allows lelouch to PRETEND to be a heroic figure, in order to RALLY PEOPLE TO HIS SIDE
zero's stated ideals and Lelouch's actual world view are NOT the same, and lelouch admits this at several points during the story
SOME of the views he expresses as zero might be beliefs he also holds on his own, but his real goals and methods are far from his stated ones as zero
while, as zero, he claims to champion the weak and fight for justice, lelouch admits that he only created zero for nunnaly, and admits to suzaku that the mask is simply a tool to gather support for his cause
Lelouch says a lot of things, but not all of them should be taken at face-value.
Lelouch has proven several times that he has a sense of justice, but we already had this discussion, so I'm not going into it again. He's not the perfect hero he makes himself out to be, but Zero is a part of Lelouch, and Nunnally was at least partly a justification - he admits to that. It was him who wanted a place for the weak in society along with his revenge, not his sister - or at least, he didn't do it just for her.

Lelouch was meant to be a "modern hero", and that's the way I see him. Not a hero-hero, but someone who has a strong sense of justice that gets muddled by all the shit that has been thrown at him in his short life.
Lelouch has always been quicker to call himself a monster than a hero when he was speaking in earnest. That's not because he's a rotten human being, but because this is the impression he has of himself. Someone like him can not have a pure, innocent wish, so he projects it on Nunnally.
Episode 5, though, shows that to a not so small extent, he and Suzaku have the same goal and the same reasons - they are sick of seeing people suffer.
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 19:28   Link #6572
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Uh, and what would he have achieved by taking the blame? Certainly not world peace.
Lelouch's way of honouring the dead is too keep on fighting, and corpses tend not to care about their reputation.
(By the way, what would you want him to do? Hand himself over for punishment, and cause his sister as well as a lot of other people even more grief? That's Suzaku's version of justice, and maybe yours, but not Lelouch's, and not mine.)
see my comment to morbo's post
and i would have him NOT treat his stated goal that inspires millions to his side, like its something to be tossed aside the moment something he REALLY cares about is threatened

Quote:
Well, yes, sister complex. Nunnally was his world, and with that kind of history, I don't blame him.
The massacre didn't make him any more psychologically stable, by the way.
same

Quote:
I'm not an expert on batman, but I doubt he's a teenager, and I have no idea if he has a comparable shitty past that could screw with his morals.
i kinda think watching his mom and dad murdered in front of him is pretty bad
but thats not really the issue

Quote:
Lelouch says a lot of things, but not all of them should be taken at face-value.
Lelouch has proven several times that he has a sense of justice, but we already had this discussion, so I'm not going into it again. He's not the perfect hero he makes himself out to be, but Zero is a part of Lelouch, and Nunnally was at least partly a justification - he admits to that. It was him who wanted a place for the weak in society along with his revenge, not his sister - or at least, he didn't do it just for her.

Lelouch was meant to be a "modern hero", and that's the way I see him. Not a hero-hero, but someone who has a strong sense of justice that gets muddled by all the shit that has been thrown at him in his short life.
Lelouch has always been sooner to call himself a monster than a hero when he was speaking in earnest. That's not because he's a rotten human being, but because this is the impression he has of himself. Someone like him can not have a pure, innocent wish, so he projects it on Nunnally.
Episode 5, though, shows that to a not so small extent, he and Suzaku have the same goal and the same reasons.
THATS a pretty good indication of the true lelouch...
but not zero
as zero, he IS pretending to be the perfect hero
he IS pretending to be a symbol of hope
is worlds SHOULD be taken at face value
and THATS the difference

who he REALLY is, and who he is pretending to be, is the main point
and, ironiclly, it is CHARLES of all people who calls him out on this repeatedly
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 19:35   Link #6573
Laurcus
The black angel
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In Dalaran making laps around the city.
Does anyone else think that Lelouch opposing Charles and his Ragnarock connection because it forces his good intention on everyone else, when you can't really say that it's what everyone else wants is a bit... hypocritical? I mean, in the next few episodes he starts a war, kills many people then sacrafices himself to "push" people towards peace by getting them to follow the symbol of Zero.

Isn't that really the same idea? I know best so I will manipulate the world into doing what I think is right.

In some ways Lelouch kinda reminds me of the story of Prince Arthas Menethil, if anyone here is familiar with Warcraft lore. Lelouch sets out seeking revenge, he believes that Britannia and the way they do things is wrong, he wants to make a better world for Nunally. In the end he becomes what he hates, and I don' really think that Nunally is happy even though the world is a safer place now.

Arthas trys to keep his homeland safe, to ensure its security he does things that are very morally wrong and in the end he destroys his kingdom with his own hands after becoming a death knight and murdering his father.

What's up with psycho princes that want to "help" the world and bring it to the brink of annihilation instead.
__________________
I will show you the justice of the grave, and the true meaning of fear!
Laurcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 19:42   Link #6574
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
see my comment to morbo's post
and i would have him NOT treat his stated goal that inspires millions to his side, like its something to be tossed aside the moment something he REALLY cares about is threatened
Then he wouldn't have been Lelouch any longer.
He was already pretty unstable when the battle began. I don't think there was any other possible outcome with Nunnally gone - he's no saint who'd throw away his own happiness, his only happiness, for the (questionable) good of the world, certainly not at that point of time.

Quote:
i kinda think watching his mom and dad murdered in front of him is pretty bad
but thats not really the issue
Then this made him want to fight crime. Fine.
Lelouch, though, found his sister burried under his mother's corpse and was then cast away by his father with some very nice parting words. And there was no crime, because his father was the Emperor and didn't give a damn.
Oh, and then he was send off to protect himself and his sister in a foreign country, as very much expandable hostages. Yay.

Quote:
THATS a pretty good indication of the true lelouch...
but not zero
as zero, he IS pretending to be the perfect hero
he IS pretending to be a symbol of hope
To reach a goal he has as both Lelouch and Zero.

Quote:
who he REALLY is, and who he is pretending to be, is the main point
and, ironiclly, it is CHARLES of all people who calls him out on this repeatedly
And it's Lelouch who declares that people lie because there is something they are yearning for, while Charles would throw out everyone's individuality out of the window for Absolute Honesty. So?
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 19:52   Link #6575
morbosfist
Spinning Lotus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i would agree with you, if he did it FOR the japanese people
but as later shown, the japanese liberation cause wasn't really what he was after
it was a side-effect of it, and if the choice is between a fate of an entire nation of 100 million people, or his little sister...
my point was that i could agree with the fact that what he did with euphie was NEEDED if he did it for a greater cause
he DIDN'T
Nothing but useless hyperbole. You overemphasize the negative to an illogically excessive degree. No, the Japanese liberation was not what he was after. He is not that narrow-minded, not like Ohgi and the rest who can't see two feet beyond Japanese borders to save their lives. He was after something bigger, and the Japanese liberation was a part of that. Nunnally is a corollary to that. She is the only family he has left, and while the job is being done for her, nevertheless he is committed to it.

As I point out earlier, if you can honestly tell me you'd let your family die when you had the power to save them but were busy with something of similar importance, then I will take this position more seriously. At the moment, you are faulting Lelouch for trying to protect the only family he has left (not wrongfully so, I must concede, but not rightfully so, either).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
my point about batman and zero is that zero is NOT lelouch's real personality, enabled through the mask
zero is a recruitment tool

lelouch isn't running for political office
he isn't trying to work as part of the system
lelouch is setting himself up as a symbol if justice, and thats the REASON why people follow him
they BELIEVE HIM to be something he isn't, but is PRETENDING to be

he SAYS one thing, and DOES another
and in fact, the things he does are SO completely different from what he says, that the moment his followers find out, they try to kill him
They try to kill him because they're idiots who were looking for someone to blame and got it. They're also horribly ungrateful, given everything he's done for them. To rationalize their actions, which are wholly inappropriate in myriad ways, as proof that Lelouch "had it coming", so to speak, is patently absurd.

Again, what's you're point about Zero being a recruitment tool? You act like this is so unheard of. People need hope, a cuase they can believe in, and so on. Zero is the personification of that. He's a symbol that can be rallied behind. That his own goals are different is not surprising, unexpected, or even a bad thing, because he always intended to make good on his promises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
Does anyone else think that Lelouch opposing Charles and his Ragnarock connection because it forces his good intention on everyone else, when you can't really say that it's what everyone else wants is a bit... hypocritical? I mean, in the next few episodes he starts a war, kills many people then sacrafices himself to "push" people towards peace by getting them to follow the symbol of Zero.

Isn't that really the same idea? I know best so I will manipulate the world into doing what I think is right.
The difference is choice. People in Charles' world would lose that. They'd become one person, a hive mind with no start and no need, lacking ambition to move forward or indeed any sort of individual emotion. Lelouch's way allows people the choice. His idea was that people will always choose the better future if they can, and work for that.
__________________
morbosfist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 20:02   Link #6576
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Nothing but useless hyperbole. You overemphasize the negative to an illogically excessive degree. No, the Japanese liberation was not what he was after. He is not that narrow-minded, not like Ohgi and the rest who can't see two feet beyond Japanese borders to save their lives. He was after something bigger, and the Japanese liberation was a part of that. Nunnally is a corollary to that. She is the only family he has left, and while the job is being done for her, nevertheless he is committed to it.
and you DONT see the irony of what you just said ?
you dont see how different it is from what he actually DOES ?
lelouch is NOT looking at a bigger picture
lelouch is looking at a very small, very sweet, wheelchair bound picture.
and thats ALL he cares about, if the choice is between freeing japan, and chasing after his sister, then screw japan

keep in mind that this battle to free japan, is what the members of the OOBK have spent YEARS fighting for (long before zero came along)
risking their lives for
losing people they loved for
but for lelouch, its just not important enough

Quote:
As I point out earlier, if you can honestly tell me you'd let your family die when you had the power to save them but were busy with something of similar importance, then I will take this position more seriously.
would i willingly cost an entire nation of 100 million people its freedom just to save one person ?
no.

Quote:
They try to kill him because they're idiots who were looking for someone to blame and got it. They're also horribly ungrateful, given everything he's done for them. To rationalize their actions, which are wholly inappropriate in myriad ways, as proof that Lelouch "had it coming", so to speak, is patently absurd.
they were trying to kill him because they learned who he really is
which is to say, someone who PRETENDS to be fighting for the UFN and its people, while in effect using them for his own goals
someone who massacres women and children (even japanese ones) when it suites him
in other words, a villain in hero's clothings
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 20:15   Link #6577
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and you DONT see the irony of what you just said ?
you dont see how different it is from what he actually DOES ?
lelouch is NOT looking at a bigger picture
lelouch is looking at a very small, very sweet, wheelchair bound picture.
and thats ALL he cares about, if the choice is between freeing japan, and chasing after his sister, then screw japan

keep in mind that this battle to free japan, is what the members of the OOBK have spent YEARS fighting for (long before zero came along)
risking their lives for
losing people they loved for
but for lelouch, its just not important enough
I completely agree with morbosfist on this.
Just because Nunnally came first for Lelouch, doesn't mean everything else wasn't important to him. It just wasn't as important.
It's not right, but understandable, and the people he was disappointing never had any chance at all before he showed up.

Quote:
they were trying to kill him because they learned who he really is
which is to say, someone who PRETENDS to be fighting for the UFN and its people, while in effect using them for his own goals
someone who massacres women and children (even japanese ones) when it suites him
in other words, a villain in hero's clothings
Uh-huh. And they realized all this in five seconds, I'm sure.
Lelouch was planning to achieve what he promised, even if he had other goals besides, and even if he was manipulative about it.

But I think I'll leave it at that. To you, Lelouch is an evil prick with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. To me, he's, at the very least, as much a hero as he is a villain, and I certainly think he's an awesome character. Hell, I even like the ending.
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 20:17   Link #6578
morbosfist
Spinning Lotus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and you DONT see the irony of what you just said ?
you dont see how different it is from what he actually DOES ?
lelouch is NOT looking at a bigger picture
lelouch is looking at a very small, very sweet, wheelchair bound picture.
and thats ALL he cares about, if the choice is between freeing japan, and chasing after his sister, then screw japan

keep in mind that this battle to free japan, is what the members of the OOBK have spent YEARS fighting for (long before zero came along)
risking their lives for
losing people they loved for
but for lelouch, its just not important enough
Just not important enough, eh? Just like it wasn't important enough to Ohgi when he deliberately went to get himself shot by the enemy? Just like it wasn't important enough for Suzaku when even the most flimsy excuse to die came up? See? Don't go singling out Lelouch for his behavior, it's hardly unique.

Again, needless overemphasizing of the negative. You think they didn't try to protect those they loved, that they said "looks like my friend's gonna die, his fault"? Please. So what if they've been doing it longer? They sucked at it. Lelouch put just as much effort into into their cause, and he was better at it. For a more recent example, the entire Black Knights sans Diethard, the most pragmatic of them all, was willing to risk everything just to save Kallen. Your attempt to characterize Lelouch as uncommitted to the cause would necessitate labeling the entire army as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
they were trying to kill him because they learned who he really is
which is to say, someone who PRETENDS to be fighting for the UFN and its people, while in effect using them for his own goals
someone who massacres women and children (even japanese ones) when it suites him
in other words, a villain in hero's clothings
Which would be fine if they had made even a token effort to confirm that. They did not. Ohgi was whipped coming in and the others followed along like lost puppies because of some pretty pictures. Their behavior isn't rational, it's scapegoating in the absence of anything else to blame for their colossal failure.
__________________
morbosfist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 20:31   Link #6579
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I completely agree with morbosfist on this.
Just because Nunnally came first for Lelouch, doesn't mean everything else wasn't important to him. It just wasn't as important.
It's not right, but understandable, and the people he was disappointing never had any chance at all before he showed up.
doesn't mean he can just throw everything they spent years fighting for aside

Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Just not important enough, eh? Just like it wasn't important enough to Ohgi when he deliberately went to get himself shot by the enemy? Just like it wasn't important enough for Suzaku when even the most flimsy excuse to die came up? See? Don't go singling out Lelouch for his behavior, it's hardly unique.

Again, needless overemphasizing of the negative. You think they didn't try to protect those they loved, that they said "looks like my friend's gonna die, his fault"? Please. So what if they've been doing it longer? They sucked at it. Lelouch put just as much effort into into their cause, and he was better at it. For a more recent example, the entire Black Knights sans Diethard, the most pragmatic of them all, was willing to risk everything just to save Kallen. Your attempt to characterize Lelouch as uncommitted to the cause would necessitate labeling the entire army as such.
season 1 lelouch cares only about nunnaly
full stop
the moment she reveals that she has her own plans, he has a heroic BSOD and almost quites completely since he's no longer needed
japan is still under occupation, its people still suffer
but none of that relates to lelouch anymore, since he's involvement in the japanese liberation cause is entirely dependent on a different cause
up until ep 7 of season 2, lelouch is entirely focused on nunnaly
he says it himself in ep 6, that the OOBK and zero, exist solely for nunnaly's sake

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Uh-huh. And they realized all this in five seconds, I'm sure.
Lelouch was planning to achieve what he promised, even if he had other goals besides, and even if he was manipulative about it.

But I think I'll leave it at that. To you, Lelouch is an evil prick with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. To me, he's, at the very least, as much a hero as he is a villain, and I certainly think he's an awesome character. Hell, I even like the ending.
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Which would be fine if they had made even a token effort to confirm that. They did not. Ohgi was whipped coming in and the others followed along like lost puppies because of some pretty pictures. Their behavior isn't rational, it's scapegoating in the absence of anything else to blame for their colossal failure.
am i the only one who thinks the fact that he caused euphie to massacre japanese people for his own political gain is something for which the OOBK are REASONABLE for turning on him ?
are you REALLY under the impression that none of the things that he DID were good reasons ?
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-05, 20:40   Link #6580
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
am i the only one who thinks the fact that he caused euphie to massacre japanese people for his own political gain is something for which the OOBK are REASONABLE for turning on him ?
are you REALLY under the impression that none of the things that he DID were good reasons ?
Here's where they were at fault though: they decide to shoot first and ask questions last, based on a recording, which Tamaki noted, could have been faked, not to mention that it was conveniently omissive of Suzaku's observation that Lelouch had been lying in that testimonial.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.