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Old 2010-01-06, 07:06   Link #6601
Zantetsuken
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But he also wants to die for all the things he did before he became the emperor. It seems as Suzaku acquires some of Lelouch's traits, the vice versa happens.
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Old 2010-01-06, 07:09   Link #6602
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken View Post
But he also wants to die for all the things he did before he became the emperor. It seems as Suzaku acquires some of Lelouch's traits, the vice versa happens.
1)make peace
2)install someone you trust (or geassed) to continue the peaceful reforms as ruler in your place
3)kill yourself
4)???
5)profit
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Old 2010-01-06, 07:17   Link #6603
Zantetsuken
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I guess he also want to die with a BANG! Seeing as his ego is damn inflated I think it's valid assumption
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Old 2010-01-06, 07:22   Link #6604
bladeofdarkness
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EXACTLY
the problem is that it makes him out to look like a prick
he drags the entire world into a war, kills countless people, and abuses the hell out of the entire human race - because of his ego.

and THAT (in addition to other things) is why lelouch went from being my favorite character in ep 21
to a character i disliked by the end of ep 22, and utterly hated by the end of ep 23
if i was suppose to be sad when he died, then i'm sorry to say that i wasn't
i just stopped liking him by then.
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Old 2010-01-06, 07:29   Link #6605
Zantetsuken
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Just remembered something. Lelouch and Suzaku seemed to understand something back in the world of C. Maybe that would justify what they did.
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Old 2010-01-06, 07:32   Link #6606
bladeofdarkness
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nothing "justifies" what they did.
to justify doing something you have to have a good reason for doing it
the fact that lelouch chooses to do this because his ego wont let him choose any other path (confirmed by side material) does not justify it
it in fact, condemns it all the more, because its motivated by ego rather then necessity
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Old 2010-01-06, 07:44   Link #6607
Zantetsuken
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Well you're right about that. Maybe the new anime will be a remake of how CG should have ended. I mean even for Lelouch to let that ego ran that rampant is very OOC
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Old 2010-01-06, 11:21   Link #6608
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except that we dont know just how many people lelouch killed in reality, accept that it was enough to make him viewed by the people of the world, as worse then hitler
think about it

Charles started a world war that killed countless millions over the course of a decade
Euphie massacred thousends of people on live TV
Suzaku killed over 35 million people in ep 18
Shnizel wiped out the entire capital city of britannia (an area of about 30 miles in diameter)
and lelouch is MORE HATED THEN ALL OF THEM COMBINED !!!

just try to imagine how many people he would have had to slaughter to get that kind of hate placed on him (enough to completely erase the memory of all that came before it)
is it unreasonable to speculate that his death toll would have had to reach the 9th digit ?
"A lot of hateful and evil things were blamed on you" Words of Kallen.

Consider for a moment that after Lelouch died certain things he did were revealed to the public AND got a really bad PR spin on them to make him look as bad as possible.

This is the way the public might see it. Suzaku was the knight of Zero, so it was probably under Lelouch's orders that he nuked Japan and killed 35 million people. Maybe they reveale Geass to the world too. Suddenly you can blame Euphie killing all those Japanese on Lelouch as well. Schneizel nuked the capital of Britannia. Well of course they tell the public that Schneizel did that to try to stop Lelouch. He told Lelouch he would blow up Pendragon if he didn't surrender, Lelouch said go ahead.

Obviously a great deal of that is TOTALLY false, but that's how I would spin it if I wanted to blame stuff on him. They may have even found a way to blame Lelouch for some of Charles's actions, make him out to be the evil mastermind behind all the world's suffering. Combine that with a bit of abducting people that speak up against him then spreading false rumors of them being killed, and you have an instant super tyrant!

Who knows, maybe Lelouch even coached Suzaku on the sorts of things to say about him. That way Zero himself can be the on to shift all the blame to Lelouch.

Thus him being the worst tyrant ever would be just another lie, typical Lelouch deception and manipulation.
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Old 2010-01-06, 12:00   Link #6609
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Just because "the villain" has a crippled child sister and expresses feelings of remorse over the innocent bystander doesn't mean they're suddenly good because at the end of the day after he's put his crippled sister to bed and after he's spent his time hunched over in a tub thinking hard about what the hell he's doing, he still puts on that mask and still leads his private revolutionary army. In the case of case of Code Geass, this villain is the main character so we are blessed with a normally out of the ordinary amount of development on him as opposed to the usual version of following "the hero" and only seeing the villain when the hero sees him.
Interestingly enough, Okouchi himself describes Lelouch as a "modern hero".
Now, you don't have to agree with him, especially since this specifically includes Zero Requiem, but it at least proves that Lelouch was not intended to be a mere villain. And if a lot of people don't see him as one on the grounds that have already been stated here over and over, that's perfectly legitimate.

Quote:
How did Suzaku see Zero?
Oh yes, Suzaku. Just the guy I'd ask to judge the morality of someone's actions.
If Lelouch is an evil prick, then Suzaku is a suicidal one. Episode 5 shows how similar they are - partly, they are doing what they're doing for exactly the same reasons, and partly, they have selfish desires and serious issues that make them do stupid things.
Suzaku looks more like a stereotypical hero than Lelouch at first glance, but in the end, he's not even one step closer to being a moral authority than his best friend.

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How did the average Britannian see Zero after Narita?
The average Britannian would totally have cheered for him if he'd pulled something like that as Lelouch vi Britannia, for their side.
The average Britannian is no more of a moral authority than Clovis.

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Now as far as the story is concerned he's the hero, because he's the main character and that's how stories work, but in the sense of the "universe" he is leading a violent uprising that ultimately isn't popularly supported against a government that isn't leading people into gas chambers and ovens, appears to have a damn healthy GDP, and seems to have majority popular support.
A government that is trampling the weak and has a very caring Emperor at its top, so much concerned with people's well-being that he'd throw away his own children like trash in a heart-beat.
Just because it could be worse, doesn't mean it's all right. I highly doubt Zero killed as many innocent people as Britannia did, and he certainly didn't condemn them to a life that might just be worse than death.
Those oppressed supported Zero - or at least, about half of them, which is certainly something -, and those not oppressed used to totally fangirl Clovis. While I can't blame them for having taste, it doesn't make them look especially good in this context.
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Old 2010-01-06, 13:54   Link #6610
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Eh? S1 Britannia was only slightly worse than the US in Iraq (Clovis and Cornelia's Ghetto purges were almost carbon copies of a few IRL operations, at least going in) and it definitely did nothing as bad as the Russian Federation either in Chechnya or in it's infamous handling of hostage situations.



Nothing you said there actually stops making him a villain, it just makes him a well written villain. Poorly written, two dimensional, cliched villains shrug off collateral damage and do things like Lelouch at the end of R2. Well written villains actually act like human beings as opposed to robots of blind rage.

Just because "the villain" has a crippled child sister and expresses feelings of remorse over the innocent bystander doesn't mean they're suddenly good because at the end of the day after he's put his crippled sister to bed and after he's spent his time hunched over in a tub thinking hard about what the hell he's doing, he still puts on that mask and still leads his private revolutionary army. In the case of case of Code Geass, this villain is the main character so we are blessed with a normally out of the ordinary amount of development on him as opposed to the usual version of following "the hero" and only seeing the villain when the hero sees him.

How did Suzaku see Zero? How did the average Britannian see Zero after Narita?

Now as far as the story is concerned he's the hero, because he's the main character and that's how stories work, but in the sense of the "universe" he is leading a violent uprising that ultimately isn't popularly supported against a government that isn't leading people into gas chambers and ovens, appears to have a damn healthy GDP, and seems to have majority popular support.
Pure cognitive dissonance. You're accentuating the positives of the Britannian Empire while magnifying the negatives associated with Lelouch and his rebellion, typical of many of the people who give him the Death Eater treatment. In addition to what Nogi mentioned about Clovis and his Shinjuku massacre, you also have Cornelia and her massacres of the Blood of the Samurai and civilians in the Saitama ghetto, not to mention her willingness to let hostages die. Not to mention the general Britannian attitude of superiority over numbers.
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Old 2010-01-06, 14:02   Link #6611
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Pure cognitive dissonance. You're accentuating the positives of the Britannian Empire while magnifying the negatives associated with Lelouch and his rebellion, typical of many of the people who give him the Death Eater treatment. In addition to what Nogi mentioned about Clovis and his Shinjuku massacre, you also have Cornelia and her massacres of the Blood of the Samurai and civilians in the Saitama ghetto, not to mention her willingness to let hostages die. Not to mention the general Britannian attitude of superiority over numbers.
you dont need to limit yourself to cornellia

season 2 starts with japan being turned into a giant work camp
its people forced to work to the bone, fight to the death to amuse britannians, and even used as merchandise
and all because "losers have no rights"

this isn't an individual thing, its the way the japanese people are viewed as a whole

i may judge lelouch harshly myself
but there is no time in which i dont consider britannia to be much worse then him
in fact, much of what i dont like about him, may well be a result of the fact that he is a PRODUCT of that society
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Old 2010-01-06, 14:22   Link #6612
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you dont need to limit yourself to cornellia

season 2 starts with japan being turned into a giant work camp
its people forced to work to the bone, fight to the death to amuse britannians, and even used as merchandise
and all because "losers have no rights"

this isn't an individual thing, its the way the japanese people are viewed as a whole

i may judge lelouch harshly myself
but there is no time in which i dont consider britannia to be much worse then him
in fact, much of what i dont like about him, may well be a result of the fact that he is a PRODUCT of that society
Exactly.

I guess I specifically focused on season 1, because that's where most of the focus on Britannian tyranny is, even though they become even worse about it in R2.

I also could've mentioned Suzaku's moral and empathic myopia that reared its ugly head in R2.

And to say that Lelouch was the way he was because of Britannia, past and present, is the understatement of the century.

To add to the Zero Requiem discussion, it happened because Lelouch was a broken man. A dangerously uninhibited broken man at that, but a broken man nonetheless.
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Old 2010-01-06, 15:49   Link #6613
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Old 2010-01-07, 00:15   Link #6614
Commander 598
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Pure cognitive dissonance. You're accentuating the positives of the Britannian Empire while magnifying the negatives associated with Lelouch and his rebellion, typical of many of the people who give him the Death Eater treatment. In addition to what Nogi mentioned about Clovis and his Shinjuku massacre, you also have Cornelia and her massacres of the Blood of the Samurai and civilians in the Saitama ghetto, not to mention her willingness to let hostages die.
I never said Britannia was nice. You need to remember this world doesn't have the ominous shadow of Adolf Hitler standing in the background as a measuring stick of evil. A lot of nations have done some pretty nasty things prior to WW2, the creation of the UN, and the treating of any form of nationalism as an armed explosive device, and some afterwards.

How did Britannia compare to other in universe nations? What little we saw of the EU seems to indicate that they were arrogant cunts, the Chinese as I recall were infamous for essentially being a third world nation, pre-invasion Japan had what may have been an iron fisted military dictator hell bent on taking his entire nation with him in a blaze of glory. As you can see it was a real contest of shining stars...and the real world sure as hell have a pretty spotty record IRL too.

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Not to mention the general Britannian attitude of superiority over numbers.
Which is merely a matter of citizenship that sounds oddly similar to that of Ancient Rome or perhaps something out of a Heinlein novel, basically citizenship is considered something more earned than simply given. Unfortunately none of this was ever elaborated on...

Britannia was a cruel, uncaring, and nationalist evil Empire cliche, but until it is revealed that it's eco-friendly cities were actually powered by number burning furnaces, I'm pretty sure it's not comparable to NAZI GERMANY.

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its people forced to work to the bone, fight to the death to amuse britannians, and even used as merchandise
Wasn't that whole place run by a big criminal willing to shoot people in the face in broad daylight for calling him out about his cheating though? Because that's what I remember...
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Old 2010-01-07, 00:36   Link #6615
morbosfist
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How did Britannia compare to other in universe nations? What little we saw of the EU seems to indicate that they were arrogant cunts, the Chinese as I recall were infamous for essentially being a third world nation, pre-invasion Japan had what may have been an iron fisted military dictator hell bent on taking his entire nation with him in a blaze of glory. As you can see it was a real contest of shining stars...and the real world sure as hell have a pretty spotty record IRL too.
You must not have been watching the show when the Emperor describes the EU as nothing less than the America of the Code Geass world. Free rights, liberties and all that. It's a paradise until Britannia conquers it.

China had poverty as a problem, but they weren't nearly as bad as Britannia.

Japan didn't have an iron-fisted ruler, just a prime minister who people followed. And if you find this unusual, know that real-world Japan was almost exactly the same in WW2 (except those "to the last man" elements weren't running the show.

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Which is merely a matter of citizenship that sounds oddly similar to that of Ancient Rome or perhaps something out of a Heinlein novel, basically citizenship is considered something more earned than simply given. Unfortunately none of this was ever elaborated on...
Sure it was. You become an Honorary Britannian, you still get treated like shit but at least you get a nice place to live for the trouble. Becoming full Britannian citizens isn't possible for Numbers.

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Wasn't that whole place run by a big criminal willing to shoot people in the face in broad daylight for calling him out about his cheating though? Because that's what I remember...
It was mafia hangout, but Britannian agents were sitting in the middle of the damn thing and didn't give a shit, so it still counts.
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Old 2010-01-07, 04:17   Link #6616
Witacume
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btw i just realize the word of God
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod
Said that Lelouch was dead haha!
Wow I am finishing writing my anime paper for the blog but after that i am writing about
"Lelouch and the Canon Finish!" haha!
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Old 2010-01-07, 04:29   Link #6617
Zantetsuken
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Don't go there. It will be hell if we debated whether Lelouch is alive or not. Lelouch is dead, unless the creators wants to remake the last arc (I have no problem with R2 except in the last arc), then he is dead. Deader than death itself.
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Old 2010-01-07, 16:28   Link #6618
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Which is merely a matter of citizenship that sounds oddly similar to that of Ancient Rome or perhaps something out of a Heinlein novel, basically citizenship is considered something more earned than simply given. Unfortunately none of this was ever elaborated on...

Britannia was a cruel, uncaring, and nationalist evil Empire cliche, but until it is revealed that it's eco-friendly cities were actually powered by number burning furnaces, I'm pretty sure it's not comparable to NAZI GERMANY
Okay, just to add onto what Morbofist has already pointed out. It is nothing like that of Ancient Rome. The Romans gave full citizenship rights and for the most part Romans are not really that concerned about maintaining their "purity" as a race or group as the Britannians seem to be. The Honorary Britannian system basically allows the numbers to elevate themselves above other numbers and work within the Britannian settlements but they are still treated as second class citizens. If I were to liken it to an ancient society, I would draw comparisons between Britannia and Sparta rather then Rome. In general, Rome was more open to conquered peoples.

Britannia may not be powered by Number burning furnaces, but look at the two massacres in season one. Did any Britannian so much as bat an eyebrow at the thought of razing Shinjuku Ghetto or slaughtering the people in the SAZ? Their methods and reasons differ for sure, but comparisons to wholesale slaughter of civilians can be made.
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Old 2010-01-08, 00:47   Link #6619
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You must not have been watching the show when the Emperor describes the EU as nothing less than the America of the Code Geass world. Free rights, liberties and all that. It's a paradise until Britannia conquers it.
That's an awful lot of spectulation given the fact that we had like almost zero information in regards to it. Heck, it might as well have not existed in the geass series to begin if. Going to call it a paradise is a far fetch. And I must admit I find it quite ridiculous to claim that any nation that has even a little hint of democracy is official the "greatest" nation on earth.

The closest from Charles' description could be that it's direct democracy AKA Switzerland (As it's run by the mob) but that's impossible to do for massive populations.

Quote:
China had poverty as a problem, but they weren't nearly as bad as Britannia.
I dunno, starving your own people into submission is just as bad as conquering other people. At least the Britannians made an effort for even the common/number folk to put bread on the table. The enuchs didn't even bother with a single grain.

Quote:
Japan didn't have an iron-fisted ruler, just a prime minister who people followed. And if you find this unusual, know that real-world Japan was almost exactly the same in WW2 (except those "to the last man" elements weren't running the show.
Again lots of spectulation bud, but according to Lelouch Japan forced its hand on other smaller nations and strong-armed them. Forcing them into starvation and economic poverty which I'd say is pretty bad.

In fact all of them sound bad except for maybe the EEU but they barely had any presence or say in the series.

Ironically, while it was Britannia that went all gung-ho against the world and brought war and destruction, it was the only thing that could save the world and bring peace. I mean how screwed up is that? They started out as the "bad" guys and then Lelouch comes in and next thing you know they're the "good" guys. You gotta give the guy credit.

In the end, a government's only as good as the guy/girl running it. In each nation there were dozens of guys that fought for what was right (specifically in Britannia where we saw Rolo assassinating many of those senators and others who fought for Numbers' rights)

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Old 2010-01-08, 01:13   Link #6620
morbosfist
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That's an awful lot of spectulation given the fact that we had like almost zero information in regards to it. Heck, it might as well have not existed in the geass series to begin if. Going to call it a paradise is a far fetch. And I must admit I find it quite ridiculous to claim that any nation that has even a little hint of democracy is official the "greatest" nation on earth.

The closest from Charles' description could be that it's direct democracy AKA Switzerland (As it's run by the mob) but that's impossible to do for massive populations.
Nevertheless, they do not treat their territories like shit, and every country contributes to the fold. They're much better than Britannia as far as civil liberties go, and the Emperor himself acknowledges it.

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I dunno, starving your own people into submission is just as bad as conquering other people. At least the Britannians made an effort for even the common/number folk to put bread on the table. The enuchs didn't even bother with a single grain.
And Britannia isn't as bad with the craphole ghettos they make no effort to maintain? The only difference between China and Britannia is that Britannia doesn't acknowledge the numbers as real people, while China does and just doesn't feed them.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Again lots of spectulation bud, but according to Lelouch Japan forced its hand on other smaller nations and strong-armed them. Forcing them into starvation and economic poverty which I'd say is pretty bad.
Pure exaggeration. It strong-armed them into backing of military by having a stranglehold on sakuradite and a standing army that could have resisted any conventional invasion. Knightmares simply tipped the balance.

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Ironically, while it was Britannia that went all gung-ho against the world and brought war and destruction, it was the only thing that could save the world and bring peace. I mean how screwed up is that? They started out as the "bad" guys and then Lelouch comes in and next thing you know they're the "good" guys. You gotta give the guy credit.
Peace under the sword, particularly Charles' sword, isn't peace, it's tyranny. Lelouch was the same, only intentionally so and he removed himself from power.

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In the end, a government's only as good as the guy/girl running it. In each nation there were dozens of guys that fought for what was right (specifically in Britannia where we saw Rolo assassinating many of those senators and others who fought for Numbers' rights)
Which serves to reinforce the point. Britannia was a terribly racist, aggressively expansionist country. To claim that they were in any way better (except militarily) than either power is just deluded.
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