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Old 2010-01-05, 22:15   Link #1381
BlueDo
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You need to stop assuming so many things.
Yes, we see Accelerator in a setting that looks nothing like Academy City.
I would rather attribute that to the author's error than anything else.

If Accelerator or Mikoto were born with their powers, we would've been told so long ago.
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Old 2010-01-05, 22:23   Link #1382
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Originally Posted by Plant42 View Post
No, neither Mikoto nor Accelerator born with esper power. Both of them gain their powers from the academy city's curriculum.

The natural born esper are called the "Genseki(gemstone)".
There are only almost 50 of them all around the world
Their powers are really strange compare to the academy city's esper and hard to be called as esper power such as IB and Deepblood

The gemstones who appear in the story are Kamijou Touma,Himegami Aisa,Soigita Gunha.
So Touma isn't that ordinary as I would've like to think...
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Old 2010-01-05, 22:34   Link #1383
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Originally Posted by BlueDo View Post
You need to stop assuming so many things.
Yes, we see Accelerator in a setting that looks nothing like Academy City.
I would rather attribute that to the author's error than anything else.

If Accelerator or Mikoto were born with their powers, we would've been told so long ago.
Its entirely probable that Accelerator developed his powers on his own at first. I mean, magic was invented by people who were envious of espers and their powers, right?

Magic has been around before Academy City's establishment, meaning there must have been enough powerful espers to make people envious.
----
Another thing:

If magic was invented by people who were envious of esper powers, then it should be assumed that they were unable to develop them. However, as Tsuchimikado's example testifies to, magicians can develop esper powers. The only logical explanation I can think of is that Academy Cities' curriculum is something that helps bypass the previous rules regarding esper powers.
----
One more thing:
I seriously believe that esper powers are still not understood at all. I mean, the inconsistencies between all of the powers is just ridiculous. I can understand some powers being mostly understood (electricity, teleportation), but the retarded abilities like "body regeneration", "vampire bait", and "completely ordinary hand" seriously have got to have more to it than just that.

Just an example: "body regeneration" really means having control over your own metabolism. The term "body regeneration" seems so... fake. I know this is a fantasy story, but the scientific approach the story seems to take on abilities such as Railgun/Accelerator contrasts so sharply with the other abilities.

Hopefully the author is actually thinking this much. The LN has sold like 18 volumes so far and its still going strong. However, after looking at the path Bleach has gone down, it's very likely that the author is just making things up as he/she goes.
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Old 2010-01-05, 22:56   Link #1384
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
It has the gem stones something to do with the holy stone Fiamma wants to get? or Is a different thing?
It's just a name, due to the fact that the researchers considered these natural born esper(?) to be a valuable gemstones compared to their man-made esper.



Quote:
Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
I thought Aleister revealed that IB is not an esper power, so Touma's IB should not make him a "gemstone" if he's not an esper at all. (If he is, we have yet to see)
well, all of the gemstones's powers have a strange nature,unexplainable and hardly considered to be an esper power.
But the reseachers still have to classify these super natural power user as an esper, cuz they can't find an appropriate term than that.


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Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
And a question: how did you find that out? Which character reveals that?
It's all in the novel especially in SS2 which is focus about the gemstones.
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Old 2010-01-05, 23:32   Link #1385
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I was always under the impression that the timeline goes like this.

Magic was created in response to the gemstones.
ESP was created after Aleister Crowley abandoned his art.

Gemstones and ESP come from "ability users."
ESP is just an artificial ability made possible through brain treatment, which likely originated after magic, a remedy for "people without powers," was founded.
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Old 2010-01-06, 00:48   Link #1386
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Does this mean there are three kinds of powers in that world?
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Old 2010-01-06, 05:17   Link #1387
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No. There is only one dividng line, which is AIM nor not. Do you release AIM? Be yuor power is natural or not, you are consider an esper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
I thought Aleister revealed that IB is not an esper power, so Touma's IB should not make him a "gemstone" if he's not an esper at all. (If he is, we have yet to see).
And this is where the fundemental rule of Esper comes into play. Which is, do you release AIM? If you do, you are an Esper. The classification on IB is so problematic is there is no evidence of it releasing any AIM. But then it might just be undetactable due to its own natur eisntead of really havign none.


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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Ahhh...Thanks for clearly that up, I thought he only defeated Kakine after activating Black Wing mode. So in other words White Wing's ability was never revealed? Also, what does 'unknown vectors' mean exactly ? In the first place, how does it help Accelerator defeat Kihara?
Let me clear one thing up. Kakine already have his wings when he first fights Accelerator. He has 3 pairs of wings, they change whatever they touch into completly new matter.
And when Kakine saw Accelerator use his black wings, his power awakens and his wings epxands into ridiculous size (about 30 meters wide). And just when his about to use his new power, his beaten into meat sauce, literally.



And I notice soemone mentioned the "puppet" government thing. It is somewhat true. Roman Catholics have been pulling strings on almost all government in Western Europe besides Britian. And, France despite under the infleunce of Catholics on surface, is really in control by the Maiden of Versailles.
I kinda want to find out who is running America in To Aru verse now.....


On the topic of Touma. Fianma has commented that Touma's power is a lot similiar to his. If Holy Right is the power that had banished the king of devil, Imagine Breaker should serve as similiar purpose. This makes the "IB is actually there to keep something sealed inside Touma" theory to be possible. What if the king fo devil or something that equivalent to it is inside Touma. Or my wildest guess, Touma already is a La Persona superiore a Dio. Being higher than the god, his mere prescence might completly overthrow the dominance of the current god, thus IB was insatlled onto him to surpress his power.
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Old 2010-01-06, 09:00   Link #1388
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Or my wildest guess, Touma already is a La Persona superiore a Dio. Being higher than the god, his mere prescence might completly overthrow the dominance of the current god, thus IB was insatlled onto him to surpress his power.
That has sense cause is power is considered somthing important but also dangerous to the magic world ruled by christianism.
If that is true, who in the world sealed Touma? God? if that so, why? scared?
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Old 2010-01-06, 10:37   Link #1389
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sogita gunha is a gem stone? but I thought his originally a level 0? Then that rumor of a level 0 getting to level 5 is false?

Is deep blood even releasing AIM? Their is no clear explanation to it. But deep blood exist to kill a certain being. Then that proves the existence of the vampire then aleister quote if deep blood exist to kill vampires then what does imagine breaker prove?

Then if we take the deep blood and imagine breaker as gemstones and natural birth espers then the being an a natural espers have their own meaning?

Everyone is talking about what's the real purpose of imagine breaker and questioning it. Some says that their are only 5-4 left in the world knows the real meaning behind imagine breaker. And Fianna says that its a holystone.

And isn't a holy stone like a gemstone? Its just kinda special in its own way. With its total secrecy in place. It's not your ordinary gemstone.

But what are espers to begin with? Especially the so called gem stones with their natural esper abilities since birth. What does they existence prove?

And human being trying to copy their abilities or to mass produce it is kinda normal but do they even know what's the meaning of an esper?

If their are only 50 on the world who can be consider gemstones and the magic side envied it so they created magic plus the science side tried to mass produce those gemstone. Isn't it to show that the original espers or rather those gemstones are quite strong?


And so kakine has his wings on already but after seeing accelerator black wing his own wings expanded with 30 meters or so. And his wings is kinda the materialization of his powers. Where what ever it touch into a newly matter.

So what are those wings to begin with? Aiwass said those 2 are special, a mad scientist quote its like an angel and those 2 are far stronger than your ordinary espers and given I think they are the only one capable of bringing out those wings.

So what are those wings?
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Old 2010-01-06, 16:03   Link #1390
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post

And I notice soemone mentioned the "puppet" government thing. It is somewhat true. Roman Catholics have been pulling strings on almost all government in Western Europe besides Britian. And, France despite under the infleunce of Catholics on surface, is really in control by the Maiden of Versailles.
I kinda want to find out who is running America in To Aru verse now.....

One could think that this "Aztec Organization" could be one of those who runs America...perhaps.

Back to the topic...I think if the setting would easier to understand if we see it more Gnostic-ly
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Old 2010-01-06, 20:16   Link #1391
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Old 2010-01-06, 20:17   Link #1392
babohtea
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There must have been non-gemstone espers before Academy City too, seeing as there are numerous examples of espers developing/discovering powers on their own (Accelerator).

Also, remember that "gemstones" are not necessarily espers yet. So, it magic may not have been founded due to gemstones, but rather "normal" espers?

Another question thats been bugging me. Angels by definition must have existed before the creation of magic? Then therefore angels should also have been around the first ever espers. By that token, espers - even the Academy City espers - must be linked to angels/heaven in some way.

Regarding God in To Aru: I think its too early to assume that he's a bad guy.

Finally, I think all espers are "born" with their abilities. Even if they aren't born with them developed, its quite obvious that every person already has his/her "type" of ability predetermined before birth. Also, as Level Upper suggested, every single person is an esper: Level Upper does not grant random powers, it activates the users pre-destined power.
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Old 2010-01-06, 23:30   Link #1393
shmaster
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Note, everyone can be esper as long as they have their brains tweaked enough to be one.
That's the whole point of the Academy city, tweaking human brain enough so they can use powers.

Also do not try to make the issure more complicated. Like I said before, whether you are an Esper or not is completly determined by whether you release AIM or not. And because everyone can potentially be an Esper in the first place. So how your powers are developed also doesn't matter either. It is AIM, AIM is what really counts.

Thus there is no division of things such as normal esper or not normal esper, as there is no special AIM or not special AIM. AIM is always just AIM.

And again, Accelerator's power is not developed naturally (and if you want to argue he is one, you have to come up with an explanation on why he is not in the "list"). He is developed by Academy City's programe. And it is impossible to develop power naturally and not be a gem stone, or else that defies the whole definition on gem stones. Gem stones are NOT determined by what power they have or whatever, it is specifcly categorize by whether you obtain the power naturally or not.

So the formula is this:

Esper is determined by whether you release AIM or not.
Gem stone is determined by whether your power is obtained naturally or not.
Gem stone or not, if you release AIM, you are an esper. Gem stone or not, if you don't release AIM, you are not an esper. They are seperate concepts, do not mix them together. It is entirely possible to be a gem stone and not an esper. Sogiita is in that position roght now.


Also, like Kumokawa has pointed out, it is best to not categorize IB as a gemstone. Speaking of which, they really should give Kumokawa a bit more screen time, and have her dig out all the secrets around IB....
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Old 2010-01-06, 23:51   Link #1394
shmaster
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Oh also, I almost forgot.

Magic was created against the esper power is a misconception.
Magic was created against people with "talent".
Esper power hardly is the only "talent" in the world. For example, Saints, who belongs to the magic side is also considered as a "talent".

In other words, what we know as esper power is just one type of "talent" that is "fueled by AIM and personal reality that can be produced by the scientific methods developed by Aleister Crowley".

In other words, magic vs. science is seperate matter from untalented vs talented people.
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Old 2010-01-07, 00:22   Link #1395
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kinda confusing here.

Sogita is the 7th level 5 right? and his not releasing his AIM? then his not an esper? and if your saying that you need AIM to be consider an esper then IB is not an esper ability yet so far because their is no AIM.

Then again about accelerator ..... okay the academy develop his ability and try to replicate it, That explains why kihara knows every mili or nano base computation about him.

What really are gemstone? They are naturally born with power but if they don't release AIM then their not esper. But if they have ability then what category will it fall into? The magic side?

And does deep blood even release AIM?

and info about sogita gunha?

And if the magic is created against people with talent then a saint is also a talent then .........grrr then the whole concept of saint even using magic..... really confusing. Then why do they use magic if its even created to go against talented people?

Who's kumokawa?
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Old 2010-01-07, 01:19   Link #1396
shmaster
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Sogiita's problem is that his power is too big of an uncertainty to the sicentists of the academy.... nah. A better way to put is "they don't know". So they refer to the closest definition they can refer Sogiita as.

As for what would gem stones be if they don't release AIM, again I have to say "I don't know" on this one. Because so far, gem stones are presumed to release AIM int he novel. But then, in order to have gem stones to feel under magic side, their power must be idenitified to use magical energy like Telesma, or using a magical formula or borrow power from a deity or any other thing that magics requires.

As for Saints using magic.... allow me to put it this way. If even espers can cast magic if they are willing to have their head explode in blood, why wouldn't Saints use them when their head won't explode??

And Kumokawa is senior student in Touma's school. She is acquainted with Touma before he lost his memory. She is also a total genius, serving as an adviser for Kaitzu, one of the presidential cuncil member. She bares a lot interest in Imagine Breaker and Touma's misfortune.
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Old 2010-01-07, 01:21   Link #1397
Plant42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
And does deep blood even release AIM?
The intoxicate power that allure the vampire to suck her blood(and then get themselves kill from doing that) is the thing that considered to be Deep blood's AIM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
Who's kumokawa?
Kumokawa Seria, a senior in Touma's high school who is first appeared in SS2.
She is a genius girl who works like a brain of Kaitsumi Tsukudoshi one of the 12 Executive board of academy city.
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Old 2010-01-07, 08:56   Link #1398
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
And Kumokawa is senior student in Touma's school. She is acquainted with Touma before he lost his memory. She is also a total genius, serving as an adviser for Kaitzu, one of the presidential cuncil member. She bares a lot interest in Imagine Breaker and Touma's misfortune.
Tsunade666, if you want to see how is she, look at the girl with the cellphone.


Kaitzu??? Kaizumi Tsugutoshi, right??
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Last edited by Miraluka; 2010-01-07 at 09:08.
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Old 2010-01-07, 09:27   Link #1399
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so the girl is komukawa and the middle is kaitzu and the last is kaizumi?

then the komukawa girl is a brain genius that leads or advice one of the higher ups. Great and she is totally interested in imagine breaker but does she even know the rule use of imagine breaker?
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Old 2010-01-07, 09:40   Link #1400
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meh novel 19 is going to be the Final? also are things more clear in that novel?
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