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Old 2010-01-06, 13:02   Link #221
-Sho-
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Human will come back with Battlecruiser then end of Pandora
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Old 2010-01-06, 13:53   Link #222
TrueKnight
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Nice site and thanks for the link.

Indeed the long distance and the limitation on amount of tonnage an ISV can carry would be a logistical nightmare for a massive scale military invasion. However I agree with Justin Strife that states the ISV is only one of the twelve ships with state of the art technology in transportation and logistic which is used for commercial purpose. What about other dozens of ships that were used for exploration as stated in the link? What about military ones? Sure it’ll take a while for them to reach Pandora but in the end they will reach there. The weapons load out limitation would surely be compensated with a probable huge amount of fleet the humans are bringing should a massive invasion is planned.


Also we find that the RDA held an exclusive mining rights over the unobtanium. Now that they’ve been ousted, most likely they’ll be back for more, maybe this time by bringing their former rivals and competitors. Seeing that unobtanium is indeed an essential requirement for humanity in order for their civilization to progress or even survive (by spacefaring explorations), funds will probably be poured in for R&Ds. And within the link even the RDA is bound to Interplanetary Commerce Administration (ICA) regulation. The ICA prohibits RDA and force them to obey a treaty prohibiting weapons of mass destruction and limitation in military power in space. Now imagine with the absence of unobtanium, a desperate humanity, such limitation is lifted!

We would probably see more R&D and alliances made for a military campaign…

I doubt even Pandora could survive, especially when they let the survivors to went back to space, probably heading back to earth spreading false propagandas….
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Old 2010-01-06, 14:54   Link #223
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
What about other dozens of ships that were used for exploration as stated in the link?
Those vessels probably aren't going to be very adequate troop transports, seeing as how they're design for exploratory missions. Seeing as how your optimized interstellar transport can only get 350 metric tons, it's doubtful that something built for exploration would be very useful in that role.
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What about military ones?
Seeing as how the military probably has to be concerned over immediate threats in systems (other militaries), most space borne military assets are probably going to be built for fighting in system rather than transporting interstellar invasion fleets.
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Sure it’ll take a while for them to reach Pandora but in the end they will reach there.
Ships optimized for interstellar travel take five years to get to Pandora. Just throw a bunch of unsuited ships in for the Armada and suddenlly your invasion fleet takes decades to get there.

If Unobtanium is really so vital that humanity would be willing to glass a world for it, then they're not going to be willing to wait decades to get the supply reinstated.
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NThe weapons load out limitation would surely be compensated with a probable huge amount of fleet the humans are bringing should a massive invasion is planned.
With the logistical strain involved over interstellar distances, it's very unlikely your going to make a big enough invasion fleet to overwhelm the planet if you're limiting yourself to conventional weapons. The only way you're ever getting the Unobtanium by force would be if you resort to RKKV's. Any kind of conventional invasion will flounder and fail horribly.


As for the RDA...their involvement in this operation may turn out to be minimal aside from supplying some ships. After losing their entire mining colony and likely causing a mind blowingly horrible economic disaster, the ICA is very unlikely to let them keep their mining rights to Pandora. Losing said colony is also likely to oblitorate RDA as a mega corporation.

Last edited by Roger Rambo; 2010-01-06 at 15:06.
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Old 2010-01-06, 15:16   Link #224
james0246
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^Honestly, I find it more likely that Jake and the other remaining humans (yes I still consider Jake a human, even if he has taken over another body) will use the mining facility to send (and receive) communications from Earth, thus starting the diplomatic process (their communications will reach Earth far faster than any of the ships from Pandora). Additionally, sicne the message could be sent to all of Earth, ti is not just a government that would be dealt with, but rather all governments and all populaces.

Worst case scenario (for the humans), the Na'vi can hold many of the deposits of unobtanium hostage. They have the data that shows where the mineral can be found, so they need only excavate a sufficient supply, and then station it in any cities the Na'vi may inhabit, making the destruction of said cities and people very cost ineffective. The only remaining course of action of part of the humans would be germ warfare, or some other non-destructive course of action, that would leave the mineral alone, but only kill the life forms, but since it is unknown (at least with the knowledge from the film) as to what a creature from Pandora's (with its toxic to humans and presumably most forms of life on Earth) atmosphere would be infected by).
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Old 2010-01-06, 15:22   Link #225
germanturkey
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dunno if it has been brought up, but its a private corporation using military contractors for security. they need money to bring mercenaries to pandora, and Jake said something at the beginning of the movie about bad economic times. hence why they were farming unobtanium in the first place. in all likelihood, they lost a HUGE investment when they were kicked off the planet. not only all the equipment and supplies for the mercs, but the avatar project as well. they were banking on the mining to work to cover their costs. so i doubt humans would be back any time soon, unless a government somewhere actually decides its worth it.
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Old 2010-01-06, 15:23   Link #226
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
The only remaining course of action of part of the humans would be germ warfare, or some other non-destructive course of action, that would leave the mineral alone, but only kill the life forms, but since it is unknown (at least with the knowledge from the film) as to what a creature from Pandora's (with its toxic to humans and presumably most forms of life on Earth) atmosphere would be infected by).
If all of this were for real, I'd be surprised if germ warfare hadn't already wiped out the Na'vi or the human invaders by the start of the movie.

But, then, we wouldn't have had much of a movie to watch...
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Old 2010-01-06, 15:33   Link #227
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^Eywa did it .
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Old 2010-01-06, 15:36   Link #228
Ending
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Well, despite what I said before, I downloaded and watched the movie to see was it really a sob story like I predicted. In case of bad prejudice and all that.

It's not a bad movie, really, considering the available time. You can only tell so much during one session and much of the story really should had been told over several episodes. The introduction alone could had filled a book, so I'd be surprised if they didn't make a cheaply produced TV-serie about Avatar like they did with Stargate.

Okay, what's generic:
-- Evil corporation, check.
-- Ruthless military leader, check.
-- Hero/Princess romance, check.
-- Noble indians and evil invaders, check.

So yes, it was a sob story, but with a twist: the protagonist is actually a turncoat. All in all, I think what he did was a treason against all humanity, since his betrayal must had lead to the execution of all human leaders on the planet. He even abandoned his human body, so in this sense the story was different. IMO, it was like expecting to see the hero triumph only to realize that he was actually the villain and the guy in the robosuit was the true hero. I imagine that the remaining humans were also executed, since that was the first reaction when the tribals saw Jake. If not executed then kept in prison or enslaved.

Quote:
so i doubt humans would be back any time soon, unless a government somewhere actually decides its worth it.
Of course they would come back, since the story stated that the planet has huge deposits of mineral that is worth 20 MIL/kg. That's 20 billion per ton, which would buy you a whole lot of soldiers and equipment. The news, about navi wiping out the remaining humans, would give any country a solid reason to marshal a full scale assault to defend the interests of human race. Hell, any smart military leader would nuke every navi city at day one and pick up the pieces, since shipping nukes would be the most cost effective way to destroy the tribals and clear the area for future use.

Last edited by Ending; 2010-01-06 at 15:55.
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Old 2010-01-06, 16:09   Link #229
TrueKnight
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With the current technology guess I agree that the journey to Pandora remains militarily a logistical nightmare with conventional weaponry. The viable options is maybe by transporting WMD’s using the ISVs or other capable ships and blow the planet’s surface. Dunno if an RKVV is actually battle proven though…. I’d stick with nukes or H-bomb any day or other projectile weaponry. A Dragon and few Scorpions spamming hellfire missiles are enough to beat the Na’vis dry and scared Eywa…..

If a faction or government decides to pour some funds in the R&D, and the ban lifting of military technology and the use of WMDs, especially in the logistic department, then Pandora. Unobtanium is far too much value to be ignored even by the UN, nations won’t just stay quite and their military as well. Afterall, few greatest achievement in technology had always been pioneered by military development. Like the Dragon air fortress was used in wars on Earth decades back…

On the unobtanium investment, I think it already paid off. Since it’s stated the RDA held exclusive mining rights since the unobtanium was found, with a price tag of a whooping USD 20 million per kilos. ISV Venture Star was made mainly to transport unobtanium from Pandora to earth and vice-versa. With a capacity of 350 metric tons….. who knows how much $$ the RDA made in one delivery.

We know that there are twelve ISV available which categorized as Capital Star. What we also know is that one of them, the Venture Star, is manufactured by an RDA lead consortium, while others probably by different governments/competitors/consortium.

Each ISV carry similar purpose, mainly to transport unobtanium from the system Pandora’s at to Earth. With the fact that RDA held exclusive unobtanium right, combined with the capacity of each twelve ISV could carry (around 350 mt), most probably RDA made hundreds of billions or even trillions USD in the entire one way delivery from those ISVs. So yes I think their investment really did pay off.

Also, RDA was a global mega corporation, of which core of business is originally transportation. They’re pioneers in transportation. Interstellar travel is maybe only one of the main core businesses they’re conducting, with other transportation businesses or line of businesses.
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Old 2010-01-06, 16:32   Link #230
Habhome
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I just have to ask... How many times have you guys seen the movie? Because there's no way I'd remember that much details about what is being said...
Or are you just reading it from some source to get the info?
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Old 2010-01-06, 17:40   Link #231
karthak
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I imagine that the remaining humans were also executed, since that was the first reaction when the tribals saw Jake. If not executed then kept in prison or enslaved.
HUH? I kinda doubt you saw the film, since it's both stated and shown very clearly that most of the humans who didn't get killed in the battle were sent back to Earth after the Na'vi took control of Hell's Gate.
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Old 2010-01-06, 17:53   Link #232
-Sho-
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Here some ideas for Avatar 2 :

http://uk.movies.ign.com/articles/105/1058223p1.html

Maybe "Return to Earth" can be possible .
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Old 2010-01-06, 18:06   Link #233
Roger Rambo
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Dunno if an RKVV is actually battle proven though…. I’d stick with nukes or H-bomb any day or other projectile weaponry.
What's to prove? This is all basic physics. At relativistic velocities golf balls launched from my ship have the kinetic energy to level cities. It's much more economical in this circumstance to pack a metric ton of golf balls than 25 metric tons of H-bombs.

Nuke's are impractical in this situation, considering that they have more destructive potential as heavy inert pieces of metal than they do as fission bombs.

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I just have to ask... How many times have you guys seen the movie? Because there's no way I'd remember that much details about what is being said...
Or are you just reading it from some source to get the info?
I've read background material on the universe.
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Old 2010-01-06, 18:15   Link #234
Renegade334
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Originally Posted by Habhome View Post
I just have to ask... How many times have you guys seen the movie? Because there's no way I'd remember that much details about what is being said...
Or are you just reading it from some source to get the info?
Just give this site a look - it does have more info on Avatar than what was disclosed in the movie itself. It's actually quite pleasant to see that they've actually bothered racking their brains (to some extent) in order to weave a history around the military hardware...can't say that for more series/universes than I can count.
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Old 2010-01-06, 20:34   Link #235
james0246
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Does anyone else find it odd how nonchalantly we are discussing the potential mass genocide/extinction of a sentient race/planet (even if both are fictional)?
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Old 2010-01-06, 21:39   Link #236
incube
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Does anyone else find it odd how nonchalantly we are discussing the potential mass genocide/extinction of a sentient race/planet (even if both are fictional)?
nah... we humans naturally seek to destroy whats around us and always come up with a good excuse as to why was it necesary....

Whats worst.. there are currently ongoing genocides on our planet and war over resources that arent remotely near being depleted.

So why would we care about some light years away planet and some blue savages living in trees....
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Old 2010-01-06, 22:28   Link #237
Roger Rambo
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Does anyone else find it odd how nonchalantly we are discussing the potential mass genocide/extinction of a sentient race/planet (even if both are fictional)?
It mostly came out of conversation regarding a hypothetical counter invasion to Pandora.
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Old 2010-01-06, 22:45   Link #238
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"manifest destiny" is always a convenient rationale for the aggressors and their behavior, no matter which expansionist nation we choose to discuss.
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Old 2010-01-07, 02:00   Link #239
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Those vessels probably aren't going to be very adequate troop transports, seeing as how they're design for exploratory missions. Seeing as how your optimized interstellar transport can only get 350 metric tons, it's doubtful that something built for exploration would be very useful in that role.

Ships optimized for interstellar travel take five years to get to Pandora. Just throw a bunch of unsuited ships in for the Armada and suddenlly your invasion fleet takes decades to get there.

If Unobtanium is really so vital that humanity would be willing to glass a world for it, then they're not going to be willing to wait decades to get the supply reinstated.
I think the time factor alone would pose enormous challenges for any Earth-launched counterattack on Pandora. As you said, it takes at least five years (it's closer to just-over six actually, if the ISVs travel at around 0.7 times the speed of light) to fly from Earth to Pandora. Which means we're talking about an at least 10-year grace period before a potential invasion: five years for the deported crew of the mining facility to get back to Earth (and for them to alert headquarters about the loss of their facility), and another five years for an assembled invasion force to return to Pandora — if at all.

Even if we suppose that the deported Earthlings manage to send an SOS ahead of them, that alert would still take at least 4.4 years to get to Earth, assuming that Pandora is in the Alpha Centauri system. That gives Earth a just-under two-year head start to prepare its forces before the deported miners return home.

Whichever way you look at it, the Na'vi victory is whole lot more decisive than it seem at first glance. Ten Earth years is a lot of time — and for all we know, that's time enough for Pandora life to recover from their combat losses, and then some.

(By the way, since I'm no expert, I'm curious whether time dilation would be a factor as well, since the ISVs are travelling at close to lightspeed. To the miners, it may seem as though only six years have passed since their banishment from Pandora, but to Earthlings, maybe several more years would have passed since the loss of their unobtainium source?)

So, far more than logistics, I think the lack of timely communication would pose far greater challenges to any potential counterattack. This is an age-old problem that every large empire has faced. You need only look at the history of the globe-spanning British East India Company, for example, to extrapolate the kinds of problems a space-age megacorporation might similarly face.
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Old 2010-01-07, 08:13   Link #240
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I think the time factor alone would pose enormous challenges for any Earth-launched counterattack on Pandora. As you said, it takes at least five years (it's closer to just-over six actually, if the ISVs travel at around 0.7 times the speed of light) to fly from Earth to Pandora. Which means we're talking about an at least 10-year grace period before a potential invasion: five years for the deported crew of the mining facility to get back to Earth (and for them to alert headquarters about the loss of their facility), and another five years for an assembled invasion force to return to Pandora — if at all.
Another thing to consider is that the Pandora mining operation needed some very big equipment to do them mining.



I really doubt the humans are going to manage "massive invasion force" plus "multiple pieces of skyscraper sized mining equipment".

So the invasion force has to restart the mining operations all by themselves, which by itself will take years.
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Whichever way you look at it, the Na'vi victory is whole lot more decisive than it seem at first glance. Ten Earth years is a lot of time — and for all we know, that's time enough for Pandora life to recover from their combat losses, and then some.
The losses the entire Pandoran biosphere took pushing the human presence off planet are inconsequential. In the grand scheme of things they literally lost nothing.
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(By the way, since I'm no expert, I'm curious whether time dilation would be a factor as well, since the ISVs are travelling at close to lightspeed. To the miners, it may seem as though only six years have passed since their banishment from Pandora, but to Earthlings, maybe several more years would have passed since the loss of their unobtainium source?)
I'm not a physics expert either sadly.

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So, far more than logistics, I think the lack of timely communication would pose far greater challenges to any potential counterattack. This is an age-old problem that every large empire has faced. You need only look at the history of the globe-spanning British East India Company, for example, to extrapolate the kinds of problems a space-age megacorporation might similarly face.
Yep, except now the logistical constraint is even worse.

And the RDA are dealing with a native population homogeneous enough in their social/political views that employing the locals as soldiers against each other isn't viable.
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