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Old 2010-01-07, 10:49   Link #1401
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
so the girl is komukawa and the middle is kaitzu and the last is kaizumi?
No!!! The girls on the left is Kumokawa, the others are Balbina and a guy who don't have anything to do with the board of directors.

@LastResolve: No, its the turning point to the next events.
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Old 2010-01-07, 12:31   Link #1402
tsunade666
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.........that what I said or just I didn't make it clear the left girl is kumokowa but the other two are unknown to me. Its just that below the picture their are names so I think they are their names.

vol 19 is not the final or even a turning point or is it together with vol 18. The turning point could be 20 or rather its also the climax.

The vol 17-18 are dedicated to touma and vol 19 are for accelerator.

I'm not sure for turning point but the 20 could be the climax.
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Old 2010-01-07, 15:48   Link #1403
babohtea
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
As for Saints using magic.... allow me to put it this way. If even espers can cast magic if they are willing to have their head explode in blood, why wouldn't Saints use them when their head won't explode??
Aren't you ignoring Index's explanation as to why espers can't use magic? Index stated that the reason they couldn't use magic was because magic was invented by people envious of people with powers. If magic was invented against "talent" such as espers, saints etc., then the same rules regarding an esper's head exploding should also apply to saints, if only because magic was created to counter saint powers.

Also, how far has the author gone into depth about how magic works in To Aru? I know Index mentioned "mana", but I don't know anything beyond that. Is magic based on angels or gods?
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Old 2010-01-07, 16:07   Link #1404
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Here's my speculation regarding espers and gemstones and magic.

Every single human in To Aru has their own specific ability that they can develop. Level Upper revealed that even level 0's with no detectable potential had their own specific type of power. Because of the enormous possibilities a person's power could be, many times people may never discover their power simply because they never considered it. Currently, the powers most celebrated in Academy City are the more obvious ones, such as control over lightning or telepathy. Think about it: if you had a power similar to Tsuchimikado's, you might never realize it until you got severely injured.

Developing your powers is extremely difficult and actually requires a lot of brain power (this is why I find "superpowers" in To Aru more convincing than other universes). If you control lightning, you actually have to study and understand the theories behind electrical activity. The seemingly simple action of sending a lightning bolt where you want to go actually has thousands of different factors. Factors such as the charge of both the target and the surrounding objects, the medium through which the lightning bolt travels and where the charge will disperse to after striking the target are required to consider. Theoretically then, every single user actually has infinite power and is only limited by how well his/her brain can multitask or the user's natural instinct.

Magic power was created by people who could not realize their power or effectively use them, whether due to the limited understanding of their power or simply never discovering their power at all. Magic is based off of asking a greater power, such as an angel, to "lend" or act upon the human world. Because magic relies on the power of another creature, the mage must not have their human/esper powers developed or else he/she cannot act as a channel for the angel's power. As a result, espers cannot use magic because the creature's power would fight with the esper's own power for control, and it would end up damaging the user's body.

Gemstones should not be assumed just to be "special espers". The details which we know actually are not enough to make assumptions. So far we know that gemstones are just people with powers who were born with them, but its much more probable that there is much more to being a gemstone than a genetic trait.

Just my speculation so far anyways. What do you think?
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Old 2010-01-07, 16:56   Link #1405
tsunade666
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well so far the only known gemstone is touma, sogita and aisa.
And all of them are puzzles of their own.

Aisa has deep blood. Her aim is like a scent that attracts vampire. This proves vampire exist but had anyone seen a vampire yet? no so far right? in to aru verse? so its still questionable even if aisa said it herself. I think she just said that they are attracted to her blood and die one by one in front of me. But are they really vampire?

then touma his the most mysterious with his ability.

Then sogita. A big puzzle himself that the scientist doesn't even know of it.
And I think it can't be classified from its roots. Like kuroko being a teleporter and misaka being an electro master. His ability being super fast and has super strength or rather amazing punch. I'm not sure about the others.

Its just that those gemstone are a mystery themselves but like shmaster said their are no special esper it all comes down to if you dispersed aim then your esper if not then not.

Aisa and Sogita release AIM but not sure about Touma.

And about infinite power of the esper........... well theirs a saying if you put your mind into it then theirs nothing impossible. BUT I think their health is also a variable on their computing ability. Having a tired and unfit body will make you hard to think and focus.

About magic. Some say that magician use the power from the nature but I'm not sure about to aru because Shmaster said about the mage in to aru use powers from alienated world. Like what vent said in vol 13. About AIM and MAGIC.

Even index said that magic is created to deal with esper. Maybe its just sweet talk in the surface but the truth is its created to deal with their talented people.

And they say that mana and telesma are needed to use magic.

Then if your not using either mana and telesma and also your not releasing aim then what are you? Like touma?
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Old 2010-01-07, 17:12   Link #1406
LastResolve
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Then sogita. A big puzzle himself that the scientist doesn't even know of it.
And I think it can't be classified from its roots. Like kuroko being a teleporter and misaka being an electro master. His ability being super fast and has super strength or rather amazing punch. I'm not sure about the others.
he most likely have stronger muscle's than an avarage persons
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Old 2010-01-07, 22:24   Link #1407
Ice Block
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
*snips*
IMO, you should read more and speculate less. All of these are answered (at least partly) in the latter, yet untranslated novels, I believe. Speculating about the nature of saints and gemstones without even knowing their background info despite this being available in the untranslated novels is quite unproductive IMO. We should just ask the novel readers -- shmaster, Plant42, and others who escape me (tsunade666, you don't count since you're using translation software ) -- about the specifics, and I believe they'd gladly respond.

And Touma's case is so simple. He doesn't release AIM and he can't use magic because IB blocks these. So simple, right?
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Old 2010-01-07, 22:39   Link #1408
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Hm, I thought I was asking the novel readers when I posted my speculation though o_o
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Old 2010-01-08, 00:17   Link #1409
shmaster
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Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
Aren't you ignoring Index's explanation as to why espers can't use magic? Index stated that the reason they couldn't use magic was because magic was invented by people envious of people with powers. If magic was invented against "talent" such as espers, saints etc., then the same rules regarding an esper's head exploding should also apply to saints, if only because magic was created to counter saint powers.
Esper got their heads explode when casting magic because esper naturally release AIM. AIM naturally repulse magic energy, so esper casting magic is trying to mix water with oil, and ultimately they implodes as two power never mix. While saints, who are AIM free, have no such worries.
Also, even if you are a mage, if you try to cast magic in some high AIM density area, you'll explode too. Vent was literally dying when she tries to cast magic when Fuze=Kazakiri stand right in front to her.

Also, the theory you proposed actually supports the reason why Saints, despite being "talented" can use magic. Magic do borrows power from higher beings, and the Saints are naturally born with a body that bares resemblance to a higher being (Jesus Christ, or Mary the Virgin). So, of course they can use magic if they are similiar to the very source of magic.
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Old 2010-01-08, 00:57   Link #1410
babohtea
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Ah, that makes sense.

Are you sure it was the AIM that made Vent die? If so, shouldn't two or three powerful teleporters be able to defeat any mage? Just teleport behind them and your AIM will make their head explode.
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Old 2010-01-08, 02:09   Link #1411
Siegfridus
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Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
Ah, that makes sense.

Are you sure it was the AIM that made Vent die? If so, shouldn't two or three powerful teleporters be able to defeat any mage? Just teleport behind them and your AIM will make their head explode.
...Wait, did Vent died?! what about the plan of helping shasha in russia?
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Old 2010-01-08, 02:33   Link #1412
Chaos2Frozen
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BACKLOG BREAKER!

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Originally Posted by LastResolve View Post
maybe he was already an esper from birth like accelarator i dont think he will have double powers so my gues is that imagine breaker cancelled the effects of the machine (since it creates supernatural effects on people)
Well the double power rule applies to the developed esper powers, does mean he can't use a different power type.

That's why I said the Holy Stone was angelic in nature, and not esper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plant42 View Post
No, neither Mikoto nor Accelerator born with esper power. Both of them gain their powers from the academy city's curriculum.

The natural born esper are called the "Genseki(gemstone)".
There are only almost 50 of them all around the world
Their powers are really strange compare to the academy city's esper and hard to be called as esper power such as IB and Deepblood

The gemstones who appear in the story are Kamijou Touma,Himegami Aisa,Soigita Gunha.
OMG, new information !?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plant42 View Post
well, all of the gemstones's powers have a strange nature,unexplainable and hardly considered to be an esper power.
But the reseachers still have to classify these super natural power user as an esper, cuz they can't find an appropriate term than that.
Makes sense, since that is literally what it means, a 'super-power-user'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
No. There is only one dividng line, which is AIM nor not. Do you release AIM? Be yuor power is natural or not, you are consider an esper.
So it all comes down to AIM again...


Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Let me clear one thing up. Kakine already have his wings when he first fights Accelerator. He has 3 pairs of wings, they change whatever they touch into completly new matter.
And when Kakine saw Accelerator use his black wings, his power awakens and his wings epxands into ridiculous size (about 30 meters wide). And just when his about to use his new power, his beaten into meat sauce, literally.
/facepalm.

I've got it all wrong again. So the wings aren't a separate function of their AIM, but rather just an extension of their Esper ability.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
And I notice soemone mentioned the "puppet" government thing. It is somewhat true. Roman Catholics have been pulling strings on almost all government in Western Europe besides Britian. And, France despite under the infleunce of Catholics on surface, is really in control by the Maiden of Versailles.
I kinda want to find out who is running America in To Aru verse now.....
ILLUMINATI

Mark my words...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
On the topic of Touma. Fianma has commented that Touma's power is a lot similiar to his. If Holy Right is the power that had banished the king of devil, Imagine Breaker should serve as similiar purpose.
I'm starting to think that the [Devil] in toaruverse might be something metaphoric after all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
So what are those wings to begin with? Aiwass said those 2 are special, a mad scientist quote its like an angel and those 2 are far stronger than your ordinary espers and given I think they are the only one capable of bringing out those wings.

So what are those wings?
Was it shmaster? I don't know, but I recall someone mentioning that Accelerator's [Redirection] and Kakine's [Dark Matter] are Angelic in natural...

edit: Ah, here we go...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
And Accelerator's Black Wing is the awkened form of his power when he directly donwload the function of AIM Field into himself.
Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Oh also, I almost forgot.

Magic was created against the esper power is a misconception.
Magic was created against people with "talent".
Esper power hardly is the only "talent" in the world. For example, Saints, who belongs to the magic side is also considered as a "talent".

In other words, what we know as esper power is just one type of "talent" that is "fueled by AIM and personal reality that can be produced by the scientific methods developed by Aleister Crowley".

In other words, magic vs. science is seperate matter from untalented vs talented people.
/Bang head on table

Now that solves alot of problems...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
As for Saints using magic.... allow me to put it this way. If even espers can cast magic if they are willing to have their head explode in blood, why wouldn't Saints use them when their head won't explode??
So there are in fact 4 classifications in the story.

Espers = Science-created power (AIM) users. Talented.
Gemstones = Natural power (AIM) users. Talented.
Magicians = Magic (Telesma) users. NOT Talented.
Saints = 'Super' (Telesma) Magic users. Talented.

Then there's the issue with non-AIM producing Gemstones. There isn't a separate name for them yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Esper got their heads explode when casting magic because esper naturally release AIM. AIM naturally repulse magic energy, so esper casting magic is trying to mix water with oil, and ultimately they implodes as two power never mix. While saints, who are AIM free, have no such worries.
Also, even if you are a mage, if you try to cast magic in some high AIM density area, you'll explode too. Vent was literally dying when she tries to cast magic when Fuze=Kazakiri stand right in front to her.

Also, the theory you proposed actually supports the reason why Saints, despite being "talented" can use magic. Magic do borrows power from higher beings, and the Saints are naturally born with a body that bares resemblance to a higher being (Jesus Christ, or Mary the Virgin). So, of course they can use magic if they are similiar to the very source of magic.
Now I can answer all those endless 'why can't espers use magic?' questions with fact!

Quote:
Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
Ah, that makes sense.

Are you sure it was the AIM that made Vent die? If so, shouldn't two or three powerful teleporters be able to defeat any mage? Just teleport behind them and your AIM will make their head explode.
shmaster said that Vent was casting a spell, so that was the triggering factor.

Anyway, the AIM level of Fuze=Kazakiri isn't something that can be replicated with just 2-3 Espers. We're talking about the AIM of 9969 Misaka sisters.
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Old 2010-01-08, 07:22   Link #1413
tsunade666
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I only read vol 7,13 and 14 and not finished the 14. Also I trust the software because I use it to play my games and surf the net though sometimes it literally drained my brain away.

And about Vent his not dead. That's one thing for sure. And also she got rescue by aqua while she is battling touma. And now she is in russia I think with sasha.

So those wings are really representation of those artifial angel. Well that proves some suspicions.

Poor kakine he got squash. But him being dead then the secret of accelerator and kakine will have to wait on what are those two really are.

And just being a teleporter and running your aim through a mage doesn't make their heads explode. Their are not idiots that while your touching them or near on them that they wouldn't retaliate and given they retaliate with magic. Those AIM field wouldn't even count. The sheer amount of Fuze=Kazakiri's AIM is huge to the point its the result of those nearly 10000 girls.

Then beside espers and saints. What could be other talent be?
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Old 2010-01-08, 11:49   Link #1414
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
And about Vent his not dead. That's one thing for sure. And also she got rescue by aqua while she is battling touma. And now she is in russia I think with sasha.
Thats right superman rescued her just in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
So those wings are really representation of those artifial angel. Well that proves some suspicions.

Poor kakine he got squash. But him being dead then the secret of accelerator and kakine will have to wait on what are those two really are.
That makes think if Accelerator and Kakine are becoming into artificial angels themselves downloading AIM in their bodies, if that is true they are coming close to achieve the Level6/System.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
And just being a teleporter and running your aim through a mage doesn't make their heads explode. Their are not idiots that while your touching them or near on them that they wouldn't retaliate and given they retaliate with magic. Those AIM field wouldn't even count. The sheer amount of Fuze=Kazakiri's AIM is huge to the point its the result of those nearly 10000 girls.
Thats why Vent vs HK was unfair it was like a mage vs 10000 espers in 1 body. I wonder how powerful is Aiwass and that makes Accelerator more awesome by figh against him.
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Old 2010-01-08, 14:03   Link #1415
Plant42
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Ah, that makes sense.

Are you sure it was the AIM that made Vent die? If so, shouldn't two or three powerful teleporters be able to defeat any mage? Just teleport behind them and your AIM will make their head explode.

In fact, a normal AIM can't do anything like that.
The one's that hurt Vent is the power of an Imaginary number school district that manifested by the appearance of Fuse=Kazakiri.
But that one is still incomplete. It doesn't reach a level that will negate all magic and the existence of mage and also has a confine range, It's just cause incomplete circulation of magic power which will give damage to a spell caster and reduce their power instead.
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Old 2010-01-08, 17:04   Link #1416
tsunade666
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Aiwass is needed for crowley's plan to succeed but the guy is completely neutral to this. And to summon aiwass they need the AIM field. Fuze=Kazakiri is the result of the AIM field and the reason that nearly all the misaka clones are around the world are to increase the range where Aiwass can manifest himself.

And what's level 6 to begin with? level 5 are already super powered and level 6 is absolute power. But according to tree diagram the only one can achieve it is accelerator and it wouldn't be even achievable by ordinary lifespan.

Does level 6 even exist or its just another scam of crowley? knowing the real deal with the misaka clones is for someone to beat the strongest and the experiment to be stop and the clones to be distributed around the globe.
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Old 2010-01-08, 17:05   Link #1417
LastResolve
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And what's level 6 to begin with? level 5 are already super powered and level 6 is absolute power. But according to tree diagram the only one can achieve it is accelerator and it wouldn't be even achievable by ordinary lifespan.

Does level 6 even exist or its just another scam of crowley? knowing the real deal with the misaka clones is for someone to beat the strongest and the experiment to be stop and the clones to be distributed around the globe
maybe level 6 turns esper into artificial angels?

btw i heared about kakine's power a lot changing the mater and stuff anything that touches his wings is becoming "new matter" what is that new matter i mean turning stuff into something else would be possible for example asfalt into sand water into ice photons into killer ray's
can he also form subjects as well? his power is kind of mystery
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Old 2010-01-08, 18:20   Link #1418
tsunade666
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turning new matter like what it says turn literally into a new type of matter.

Asphalt and sand are still know matter to earth and photons can be pretty dangerous.

The most basic will be turning the sun ray into a ray that can't be block and has no vector.

It just change the matter into a whole new one where the know laws of physics doesn't apply.

Just like a spear that can pierce through anything.

Just imagine a thing that's completely different. Where your basic knowledge doesn't apply to it. Or rather you can't define it.
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Old 2010-01-08, 18:47   Link #1419
babohtea
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Can somebody elaborate on "downloading AIM"? I also need a better explanation of AIM as well. So far I know its like an aura that surrounds any esper, but it doesn't make sense to "download" an aura.
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Old 2010-01-08, 18:58   Link #1420
ellifeedn
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Originally Posted by LastResolve View Post
maybe level 6 turns esper into artificial angels?
This gave me a strange thought. If an esper gains total control over their AIM and dies afterwards they could become an angel, or at least some sort of ghost.
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