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Old 2009-12-04, 10:32   Link #241
karice67
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I don't quite see how this fits with the romance, but to try and clear the air a little...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Fair enough question, some examples that Alto is self centered from the top of my head:

This answer exemplifies the character for me, ignoring his friends request by placing his own desires first and hints that Alto does not only want to protect Frontier but also sees the Varija as an obstacle between him and a clear sky to fly in.
The characteristics Bri is arguing for fit within the definition of narcissism. Narcissism isn't just about vanity but also "conceit, egotism and selfishness." I would say that putting one's own desires first is basically selfish...and thinking that one is right about something is egotistical.

There's a lot of psychoanalytic babble in that wiki article, but people like Freud basically argue that there are narcissistic traits in everyone, and that "healthy narcissism" is needed to set mature goals and maintain long term relationships, amongst other things.

If anything, Alto seems to be a "healthy narcissist" most of the time, but perhaps he slips when he doesn't feel assured about something?
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Old 2009-12-04, 11:50   Link #242
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You guys realize there is a Character Thread for Alto, right? And that this discussion here has become completely off-topic sometime ago as well, right?
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Old 2009-12-04, 12:04   Link #243
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I don't quite see how this fits with the romance, but to try and clear the air a little...

The characteristics Bri is arguing for fit within the definition of narcissism. Narcissism isn't just about vanity but also "conceit, egotism and selfishness." I would say that putting one's own desires first is basically selfish...and thinking that one is right about something is egotistical.

There's a lot of psychoanalytic babble in that wiki article, but people like Freud basically argue that there are narcissistic traits in everyone, and that "healthy narcissism" is needed to set mature goals and maintain long term relationships, amongst other things.

If anything, Alto seems to be a "healthy narcissist" most of the time, but perhaps he slips when he doesn't feel assured about something?
Only that nobody uses narcissim for that purpose in colloquial languange. A "narcissist" as anybody with a good education in English understands it, is someone who suffers of what is known as "Narcissistic personality disorder"

The definition of that on Wikipedia is a pretty good one:

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the diagnostic classification system used in the United States, as "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy."

The narcissist is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, and prestige. Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to self-centeredness. It is also colloquially referred to as the god complex.


So, unless Bri meant completely another thing, he is wrong with his assessment of Alto.
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Old 2009-12-04, 15:01   Link #244
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@Bri:

You're right in pointing out that Alto's focus throughout the majority of the series isn't on the girls themselves. To be specific, it's much more about finding direction and meaning in his life (a common enough theme amongst adolescents, to be sure).

But unlike the traditional lawful good reluctant hero who will only move zig for great justice (or out of boundless love for his traditional incompetent heroine), Alto genuinely enjoys piloting his VF. As he points out in episode one, flying a VF means that he can fly where he wants to, without limitations (like those that a commercial pilot would face).

I'd suspect that at least some fraction of military pilots were drawn into the career by a fascination for aircraft and a love of the skies. As such, Alto represents an interesting counterpoint to your standard mecha hero by actually enjoying, rather than dreading the experience (don't worry, the kids who are watching will still figure out that war is bad, on their own).

Of course, he still needs to fit in with the other lawful good heroes in SMS, and his lack of tragic experiences with war leaves him rather unqualified to blow things up save kittens. So in a flash of brilliant insight, Alto grabs Ranka's tragic past and runs with it. Of course, Michael and Ozma aren't so easily fooled, so they still rag on him for being the girly man that he is.

The main problem that Alto faces is that he's forced by the people around him to choose between playing one of two equally confining roles: either he becomes Ranka's knight in shining armor, or he gives it all up and goes back to acting (everyone knows that you're supposed to inherit your occupation; feudal lords do it all the time). For a time the former option works (refer to Alto's bit of dialogue about self-determination in episode twelve), but it's complicated by Brera stealing his thunder and Ranka's decision that Alto have her babies.

The solution, ultimately, is "none of the above," and it boils down to the bit of dialogue that he has with Klan and Sheryl in episode five. Alto doesn't need a complicated reason like "I want to save kittens" just to be able to fly; he flies because he's meant to (granted, he does swear to protect all the tiny pink flowers of Frontier near the end of the series, but Macross does have its space opera tendancies). In short, he finally does what he's always dreamed of doing, without bothering to come up with the sort of silly pretences that people classically decorate their resumes with.

In that, he finds real freedom, under an endless sky.

In terms of your posts, I think the term narcissism is a bit too strong of a word. While I wouldn't go to the extent of clubbing you on the head with the DSM definition (which falls outside colloquial usage of the term, to be sure), it's not quite interchangable with "self-centred" or "egotistical". Granted, the term does have some shock value, if that's what you're going for.
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Old 2009-12-04, 15:16   Link #245
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I think there's a bit of a difference in Alto focusing on a girl and

Quote:
ALto had no real romantic interest in either girl
It's denying a crucial aspect of the show itself - Isn't Macross usually refered as having 3 components? Love Triangle, Mecha, and Music? I understand that Alto loves to fly, but he didn't need to join SMS to fly. There would be no point to him using Ranka/Sheryl as an excuse to join and make himself look better. Ozma points out that there is no glory in being a civilian military provider. Alto being a narcissist instead of genuinely caring for people doesn't add up. The fact he hasn't attempted to try and explain his viewpoint when disproved doesn't help his cause much either.


@Magnus I'm pretty sure that He was talking about NPD considering this:

Quote:
Is that really Alto speaking or is he just really into his role of the hero?

Last edited by Foreshadow; 2009-12-04 at 17:08.
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Old 2009-12-04, 15:30   Link #246
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Hey, it's Swampy. Good to see you back, man!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
@Magnus I'm pretty sure that He was talking about NPD considering this:
Exactly. Which makes his assessment woefully wrong.
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Old 2009-12-04, 17:01   Link #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
The characteristics Bri is arguing for fit within the definition of narcissism. Narcissism isn't just about vanity but also "conceit, egotism and selfishness." I would say that putting one's own desires first is basically selfish...and thinking that one is right about something is egotistical.
You are correct Sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
@Bri:
You're right in pointing out that Alto's focus throughout the majority of the series isn't on the girls themselves. To be specific, it's much more about finding direction and meaning in his life (a common enough theme amongst adolescents, to be sure).
[..]
In terms of your posts, I think the term narcissism is a bit too strong of a word. While I wouldn't go to the extent of clubbing you on the head with the DSM definition (which falls outside colloquial usage of the term, to be sure), it's not quite interchangable with "self-centred" or "egotistical". Granted, the term does have some shock value, if that's what you're going for.
I'll make this my last post on the subject. I used the term narcissistic personality to make a counterpoint to the post just before mine who claimed to have the absolute truth in the AxR/S shipping.

For me the term has the same weight as calling someone a self absorbed egotistical jerk. I stated in rather colorful discription that Alto was way too occupied with his personal issues to be really focused on a real romantic relationship. I would agree in your assesement of the motives of Alto and you put it in proze in a far nicer way then I possibly could. My english is fine but it's not near native level.

@Maggy: For future reference, use a PM instead of adding personal insults to your posts.
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Old 2009-12-05, 06:14   Link #248
Audit01
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From Wacky-pedia.com (i hate that site but whatever)

The term narcissism refers to the personality trait of self-esteem, which includes the set of character traits concerned with self-image ego. The terms narcissism, narcissistic, and narcissist are often used as pejoratives, denoting vanity, conceit, egotism or simple selfishness. Applied to a social group, it is sometimes used to denote elitism or an indifference to the plight of others.

Freud believed that some narcissism is an essential part of all of us from birth.Andrew P. Morrison claims that, in adults, a reasonable amount of healthy narcissism allows the individual's perception of his needs to be balanced in relation to others.

While most people possess some degree of narcissistic traits, higher levels of narcissism can be dysfunctional, and may be classified as pathologies such as narcissistic personality disorder and malignant narcissism. Psychopathy, as defined by the PCL-R, also contains a narcissistic factor.

Here in Greece during ancient times the concept was understood as hubris-ὕβρις
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Last edited by Audit01; 2009-12-05 at 06:28.
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Old 2009-12-05, 07:35   Link #249
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Not meaning to sound like a bitch or anything, but could you guys please move the Alto discussion to Alto's thread? It's not like we need another mod pruning on these threads, now is it? And they are watching already...
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Old 2009-12-05, 10:35   Link #250
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Not meaning to sound like a bitch or anything, but could you guys please move the Alto discussion to Alto's thread? It's not like we need another mod pruning on these threads, now is it? And they are watching already...
<dons tinfoil hat>
<.<
>.>

They are always watching.

<takes tinfoil hat off>



I am done anyway with this "discussion". If in lieu of facts the other side can only offer misinterpretation of terms and laughable evidence, it's of little use.

Let's get on with romance discussion, if anyone cares to.
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Old 2010-01-09, 08:37   Link #251
raeryne
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A while ago...I watched Hikaru/Misa and Hikaru/Minmay videos (one each) and I think I can understand a little of the parallels... I hope Sheryl ends up as Misa as many people in this forum say...

However, there are some things that I would like to ask...Minmay and Hikaru had a date, just like Alto and Sheryl...while Hikaru and Misa were 'stuck(?)' in a deserted Earth(?) just like Ranka and Alto in Gallia 4...in this case, isn't it Misa=Minmay, Ranka=Misa? (No! I don't like it! Then again, I don't know anything!!! Please enlighten me about these things!)
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Old 2010-01-09, 08:54   Link #252
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Sheryl had some aspects of DYRL-Minmay, and some of Misa, mainly her strong will, and the fact she look like a mature woman. She's a mix of the two archetype.
Like Klan-Klan, who's a mix of Millia and Claudia.

Ranka has the aspects of the SDFM-Minmay.

Also, Sheryl, like Misa, thought her love for Alto was a impossible love ( for Misa, it was the ghost of Minmay in Hikaru's heart; for Sheryl, it was her disease), the two were ready to give up their love hapiness if it could her beloved happy, that's why, for me, Sheryl is the Misa of Macross Frontier.
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Old 2010-01-09, 09:07   Link #253
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Quote:
However, there are some things that I would like to ask...Minmay and Hikaru had a date, just like Alto and Sheryl...while Hikaru and Misa were 'stuck(?)' in a deserted Earth(?) just like Ranka and Alto in Gallia 4...in this case, isn't it Misa=Minmay, Ranka=Misa? (No! I don't like it! Then again, I don't know anything!!! Please enlighten me about these things!)
I wouldn't take those seriously, after all, if we can easily predict who will end up with Alto then the shipping debates won't be half as fun, no?

The scenes you stated there are mostly just homages/tributes to the original Macross. Personality-wise, I don't think Sheryl, Ranka, Minmay and Misa are alike at all. Sure, Sheryl may be older than the hero, like Misa; and Ranka is immature like Minmay -- but honestly I prefer to think of them as their own person.
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Old 2010-01-09, 09:32   Link #254
raeryne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Langrisser View Post
Sheryl had some aspects of DYRL-Minmay, and some of Misa, mainly her strong will, and the fact she look like a mature woman. She's a mix of the two archetype.
Like Klan-Klan, who's a mix of Millia and Claudia.

Ranka has the aspects of the SDFM-Minmay.

Also, Sheryl, like Misa, thought her love for Alto was a impossible love ( for Misa, it was the ghost of Minmay in Hikaru's heart; for Sheryl, it was her disease), the two were ready to give up their love hapiness if it could her beloved happy, that's why, for me, Sheryl is the Misa of Macross Frontier.
Haha,I agree about what you said...Sheryl and Misa...They're 'martyrs,' aren't they?...On second thought, maybe they are just mature enough to handle these things...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaoruLia View Post
I wouldn't take those seriously, after all, if we can easily predict who will end up with Alto then the shipping debates won't be half as fun, no?

The scenes you stated there are mostly just homages/tributes to the original Macross. Personality-wise, I don't think Sheryl, Ranka, Minmay and Misa are alike at all. Sure, Sheryl may be older than the hero, like Misa; and Ranka is immature like Minmay -- but honestly I prefer to think of them as their own person.
Yeah, I'm getting quite obssessed, aren't I?They're fictional characters, for goodness sake! Yeah, they are a lot different....anyway, I don't mind Sheryl not ending up with Alto,but Sheryl wants him, so what can I do?

Thanks for your replies...
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Old 2010-01-09, 09:41   Link #255
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Don't worry about it -- we're all obsessed with Sheryl and Alto anyways. It's not just you.

(Actually it's not really about Sheryl getting Alto because she wants him -- it's just that between the two girls, we think Sheryl is better for him. Of course, this is also based on individual preferences...)
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Old 2010-01-09, 10:05   Link #256
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I really wish they'd conclude the triangle in the second movie...

I wonder what I'll do if by some horrifying twist of fate, that conclusion turns out to be...Ranka and Alto? Okay, that's not so horrifying... Then is Alto/VF-25 more horrifying?
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Old 2010-01-09, 13:37   Link #257
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If it's a Ranka/Alto we'll all follow Tak in a Great Crusade against the God of Troll-fu Kawamori.
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Old 2010-01-09, 14:49   Link #258
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I have a hunch that it will be triangular again in the movie...XD just a hunch XD
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Old 2010-01-09, 15:18   Link #259
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That'd be a really bad move if it end in the same way as the series, I don't think fans will be pleased, me the first.
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Old 2010-01-09, 15:25   Link #260
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I don't really mind tho...I enjoyed the ending in the series anyway
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