AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-01-10, 02:58   Link #2061
Knicknevin
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Spoiler for I heard you like spoilers, so I put some spoilers in your spoilers.:


Nicely assembled. Pretty much fits my own theory too which makes me kind of happy. I had totally forgotten about the master key situation in that game. But really... they aren't talked about much after the first twilight. Any time someone needs a key for a door, they just have it, with no further discussion on how or why.

Once I finish posting all my rambling threads, I'll try to consolidate them into a single thread or two ( or three... what are the field limits on this board? heheh). Hopefully I can assemble my thoughts as well as you have.

Still... it's kind of distressing to think that Nanjo is a viable culprit. I have this crazy mental image of Nanjo choking Krauss and Natsuhi to death, one in each hand, and then tossing Krauss over his shoulder, Natsuhi under one arm and then sprinting to the arbor to dump them, stake them, and then sprint to the mansion to kill George, paint the door and run all the way back to his room on the second floor of the guest house, all in the time it takes Eva to make a pot of coffee. The man must be some kind of Olympic athlete.

Last edited by Knicknevin; 2010-01-10 at 04:08.
Knicknevin is offline  
Old 2010-01-10, 22:10   Link #2062
tehjoker
It's all useless.
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
I can't see Nanjo being a culprit but as an accomplice, yes.
Since he's the only doctor and he can confirm deaths, the real culprit always makes him survive the first twilight only to kill him later.
__________________
"You know that thing about chaos? it's Fair." - The Joker
tehjoker is offline  
Old 2010-01-10, 22:46   Link #2063
maximilianjenus
[E]
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
I can see nanjo being two culprits.. fat nanjo jokes aside, I still think beatrice is not the culprit, though that can be broken by the multiple beatrices theory.
maximilianjenus is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 00:53   Link #2064
TeeHee
I know we have bread!
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chicago
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
I can see nanjo being two culprits.. fat nanjo jokes aside, I still think beatrice is not the culprit, though that can be broken by the multiple beatrices theory.
...........Could you at least propose a counter-theory?

Last edited by TeeHee; 2010-01-11 at 00:55. Reason: Too sleepy to use correct English :(
TeeHee is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 01:36   Link #2065
LaplaceNoMa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia, Moscow
Age: 25
I'm sorry if this was already discussed, but I have a question regarding ep5 (I haven't finished it yet though):

Before the 'final' accasuation of Natsuhi in the cathedral, just before the goats appear, there is something extremely confusing being said:

- There is a red truth confirming that Krauss died shortly after the morning phone conversation when Natsuhi heard his voice.
- There is a red truth confirming that Rosa came to the guesthouse at 1:00.
- The whole point of accusing Natsuhi is about her alibi between 24:00 and 1:00.

And then Lambda says something extremely confusing: she says that Natsuhi is the culprit for killing George, Maria, Jessica, Genji, Rosa and Krauss, since it was only possible from 0:00 to 1:00.

Wtf? Wtf??? It's a clear contradiction. I'm not even talking about the fact that according to Erika's story it was simply impossible to murder Rosa since she herself proclaims that no murder occured between 1:00 and the morning.
LaplaceNoMa is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 02:44   Link #2066
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Finish Ep5 and it will make more sense.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 02:48   Link #2067
Knicknevin
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Spoiler for Scrunch:


Well, the theory she presented said that Natsuhi was hiding in the guesthouse since sometime after 24:00. Basically, it would have to mean that Rosa was killed pretty much as soon as she went upstairs, and then Natsuhi hid again until some time after 3:00, when she snuck out.

As for Genji, she killed him before she left the mansion (Eva's seal makes it impossible after 1:00), and Krauss could have been killed anytime, since his room wasn't sealed.

edit: Just to be clear though, she's only talking about the murders in the guest house when she's determining the time frame of the crime.

Granted, this is just how Erika's theory puts it.
Knicknevin is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 05:11   Link #2068
porchoky
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Hey guys, I have a question about Battler's "big comeback". If it's already been discussed please link me to the page. Anyways:
Why do they make a big deal out of Battler seeing Kinzo when he and erika are on their way to the gold? I understand it makes him an unreliable observer from that point on, but what's the big deal? So when he wakes up in the morning and sees all the cousins dead:
He did see Kinzo - this scene could be a lie.
If he hadn't seen Kinzo - this is what really happened. But can we trust that anyways? It's not red truth. Or do we assume Battler's witness/testimony is reliable.


Then, on a slightly related note, tell me if I'm right (or at least not wrong) on Battler's train of thought had he explained his version of the truth for the first twilight deaths:
Spoiler:
porchoky is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 06:10   Link #2069
Mirrored
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by TanabeTakashi View Post
I don't know if this is the right place to post this but.... i have a pair of questions...

Why does the Knox's 5th is not mentioned? I know it says that 'No Chinaman must figure in the story", but what I wanna know is if 'chinaman' has another meaning apart from 'an asian'. If it doesn't have another meaning, why does Knox create this commandment? Does it have any sense?
Something worth noting here:

Nearly all of the primary characters have Western names.

Should we presume that in this case, Chinaman refers to "character with an Asian name", then that means the culprit must be a character with a Western name.

Otherwise, we can assume this rule is omitted as 07 overlooking racism from a hundred years ago for some reason, i.e. not to offend his demographic, or because it's dated, etc.

Quote:

The other question I had was if Battler's last blue theory was really ok. He said that he was the child from 19 years ago and the culprit, but Virgilia said in red that he was not the culprit in any of the games.

Sry if I have a lot of grammar mistakes while writing, I'm actually latinoamerican.

Thx.
I'm thinking now that there are two Battlers, and that Battler1, the present Battler, did something to greatly anger Battler2, years ago-- perhaps throwing away the name that he got as a result of Battler2's sacrifice infuriated Battler2.

Battler 2 is the firstborn of Asuma
Battler 1 is the firstborn of Kyrie

However, they were switched places for some sort of reason at birth.

Thus, Kyrie does not know that Battler 1 is her son.



The whole series of Murders is Battler 2 attempting to reclaim everything that he perceives the original Battler to have stolen. Battler 2 is culprit X-- he uses many many many means to enact his revenge.

I haven't completed 5 yet, but from the end of 4, that was my assumption.
Mirrored is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 06:18   Link #2070
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
I'm sorry if this was already discussed, but I have a question regarding ep5 (I haven't finished it yet though):

Before the 'final' accasuation of Natsuhi in the cathedral, just before the goats appear, there is something extremely confusing being said:

- There is a red truth confirming that Krauss died shortly after the morning phone conversation when Natsuhi heard his voice.
- There is a red truth confirming that Rosa came to the guesthouse at 1:00.
- The whole point of accusing Natsuhi is about her alibi between 24:00 and 1:00.

And then Lambda says something extremely confusing: she says that Natsuhi is the culprit for killing George, Maria, Jessica, Genji, Rosa and Krauss, since it was only possible from 0:00 to 1:00.

Wtf? Wtf??? It's a clear contradiction. I'm not even talking about the fact that according to Erika's story it was simply impossible to murder Rosa since she herself proclaims that no murder occured between 1:00 and the morning.
Krauss is not a problem since he could have been killed anytime. There isn't actually any proof that Natsuhi killed Krauss but since Erika "demonstrated" that only Natsuhi could kill the other 5 so it was "obvious" she also killed Krauss. Yes that's an incredible bad reasoning, but she did worse.

As for Rosa you'd have to think that Natsuhi has been hiding somewhere in the second floor of the guesthouse until 3:00 AM. Erika never said that but it is the only way to make her lame theory work.
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now  
Old 2010-01-11, 06:49   Link #2071
LaplaceNoMa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia, Moscow
Age: 25
Quote:
Krauss is not a problem since he could have been killed anytime.
I'm not at home right now, but IIRC it was mentioned in red that he was 'killed shortly after Natushi heard his voice over the phone', meaning that it happened in the morning.
LaplaceNoMa is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 08:18   Link #2072
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
Something worth noting here:

Nearly all of the primary characters have Western names.

Should we presume that in this case, Chinaman refers to "character with an Asian name", then that means the culprit must be a character with a Western name.

Otherwise, we can assume this rule is omitted as 07 overlooking racism from a hundred years ago for some reason, i.e. not to offend his demographic, or because it's dated, etc.
Because he wants to sell more and doesn't want his work to be banned on Mainland China
__________________
Kýrie, eléison

Battler, you have already known it, right?

Without Love, it cannot be seen.
ijriims is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 10:33   Link #2073
maximilianjenus
[E]
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
...........Could you at least propose a counter-theory?
While i am not up to sit down and write a full theory right now, it involves kanon being the culprit and shannon being beatrice, since kanon's death always have holes that allow him to continue killing.
maximilianjenus is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 12:11   Link #2074
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
I'm not at home right now, but IIRC it was mentioned in red that he was 'killed shortly after Natushi heard his voice over the phone', meaning that it happened in the morning.
Well yes but that was stated later when Erika had already "demonstrated" that Natsuhi was the culprit, and yet again there was absolutely no basis for that claim, you just have a witch's red truth.
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now  
Old 2010-01-11, 15:24   Link #2075
Mirrored
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Random Comments

I think that Umineko is not actually a Fantasy or a Mystery, but it is actually in the genre of Romance.

While we continually see the struggle between Fantasy and Mystery which continually ends in stalemate, there is a possibility of something that could break it.

Both Bern and Lambda do not see a possibility for Beatrice to win, none whatsoever. However, it is continually mentioned starting at the 4th episode, that only with Love can the truth be seen. It is hinted at during Episode 3 that Beatrice's method of winning is to have Battler actually accept her. Blah blah blah, continual Love Love Love hammering thematically during both 4 and 5. The Golden Truth is then gained after a particularly loveydovey "I understand you" moment in 5.

Thus, the way out of the endless game is only if Beatrice wins and Battler accepts her as a witch, something he would not do out of logic, but would be willing to do out of love.

The story itself meets the requirements of the Romance Genre and I fully expect it to end with a Romantic ending.
Mirrored is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 15:52   Link #2076
ArcticHelm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
I'd have to agree to the extent that it definitely leaves that sort of impression. Honestly I can't really recall reading anything that has managed to hug several genre quite as well as Umineko has been doing. I think probably the most interesting aspect is going to be how all these different off-shoots are going to be resolved. Personally I can't imagine it concluding in a way which denies any of the different aspects as it would seem to be against the 'spirit' of the work - if that makes any sense; however it may be possible for readers to make their own conclusions which deny the different facets, especially if 'answers' are left open ended.
ArcticHelm is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 22:06   Link #2077
bereal31
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Alright I am newb, so sorry if this is obvious.

I have two questions:

first, I haven't finished ep.5. but regarding the shannon and kannon being the same person theory, I am at the part where that dude smashed the glass and broke in Kinzo's study and they are all in Kinzo's study. Shannon and kannon are together in front of everyone.

second, I am at the part where diago first appeared and start owning beato. I just don't get why is it not possible for Kinzo to leave the study, and then put the paper back in the wedge or for someone to put the paper back in the wedge?

again I am sorry if this newb or obvious.
__________________
d
bereal31 is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 22:19   Link #2078
TeeHee
I know we have bread!
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chicago
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bereal31 View Post
first, I haven't finished ep.5. but regarding the shannon and kannon being the same person theory, I am at the part where that dude smashed the glass and broke in Kinzo's study and they are all in Kinzo's study. Shannon and kannon are together in front of everyone.
Consider putting that theory out to pasture. Recall that there was a point that all eighteen people were in the same room, and Battler confirmed that there are in fact eighteen people in the room, including himself. Kanon and Shannon included.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bereal31 View Post
second, I am at the part where diago first appeared and start owning beato. I just don't get why is it not possible for Kinzo to leave the study, and then put the paper back in the wedge or for someone to put the paper back in the wedge?
Red truth:
Kinzo is dead. He is dead before the Ushiromiya meeting of 1986 in all games, including the fifth game.
You learned this in the fourth game. Remember the Blue Truth/Red Truth fight between Battler and Beatrice?

Dead people are pretty useless.

Last edited by TeeHee; 2010-01-11 at 23:01. Reason: Edit became a response.
TeeHee is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 22:35   Link #2079
ArcticHelm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
It's unclear if Battler's perspective (observing both Kanon and Shannon together) is an accurate representation of what's going on as he isn't considered the detective at that current point. Ryukishi may have left that in as a trap to fool people from believing they were separate people, or as a trap in a trap to make them into a red-herring. Either way, it's possible to make a plausible theory in each case at the moment.
ArcticHelm is offline  
Old 2010-01-11, 22:44   Link #2080
bereal31
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Red truth:
Kinzo is dead. He is dead before the Ushiromiya meeting of 1986 in all games, including the fifth game.
You learned this in the fourth game. Remember the Blue Truth/Red Truth fight between Battler and Beatrice?

Dead people are pretty useless.
I am sorry, but this doesn't work for me.

As I understand you, Kinzo is dead and therefore no one could've been in the room, no one could've gotten out of the room, and no one could've put the paper back in the wedge.

This doesn't work since just because person A is dead does not mean a person cannot enter or exit Person A's room, or that no one could put the paper back in the Person A's door wedge.

For example, Sarah is dead. This doesn't mean, however, that someone couldn't enter or exit Sarah's room, nor does it mean that if someone put a wedge in Sarah's door, that no one can put it back.

From the way I see it, there is a possibility that someone and anyone or anything could've been in Kinzo's room. It or he could've gotten out of the room, then either noticed the paper and put it back or someone has.
__________________
d
bereal31 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.