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Old 2010-01-15, 03:33   Link #2161
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
Frankly, I don’t see any difference between “anti-fantasy” and “true mystery” positions, for me it’s just some random BS thrown in by R07 to further confuse things.
the difference is as follow:

anti-fantasy: makes use of any kind of theory, no matter how much ridiculous it is, to deny magic and supernatural

true mystery: makes use of theories to deny magic and supernatural inside the preset limits of the mystery genre.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
If anything, my respect for Bern went up considerably after Ep 5. People blame her (and, by extension, Lambda) for rigging the game, for making Natsuhi a scapegoat, etc. etc. As I see it, all Bern tried to do in Ep 5 was to faithfully pursue “pro-mystery” position and see it through to its logical end (i.e. exposing the culprit). Granted, she turned up with the wrong culprit, but that doesn’t make her an antagonist or inherently evil per se – she just wanted the game to be over and done with so that she could move on with her life (or was it afterlife?); that is, her motives could be pure and sincere, for all we know.
You must have missed something. Bern isn't satisfied just by making the game end, she wants to totally destroy the witch. And she doesn't give a damn about Battler being stuck in a limbo for the eternity.
Also Bern doesn't have a "life", she doesn't have anything to do, that's why she is afflicted with boredom. Playing this kind of games is her life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
As for Erika, the only thing she can be accused of is being overzealous (albeit to hilarious effects; and admit it, after Ep 5 she is truly the most fascinating/refreshing character which this franchise was in dire need of at that late time in its lifecycle).
When Erika says that she is an intellectual rapist, she mean it, and you could say that in red.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The problem is how it is unlikely that it could be otherwise regarding the reason that "they are alive, yet they were presented dead in the gameboard before the trial".
The fact that they were alive was never stated in red. Sure this is a plausible option be it is equally plausible that the "lie" is the fact that the corpses disappeared.

1) From one side you have a narrator that tells you that George and the others have their necks almost completely slit, and a lot of people are seeing them and cry and scream.

2) From the other side you have a narrator that tells you that people go check the bodies and do not found them. That scene wasn't even shown, 'though it is confirmed in later dialogues.

What makes you think that it is more probable that the first one was a lie rather than the second?

Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Did you just shut your eyes and listen to the pretty music during the last chapter or something? Bern unnecessarily--and with full knowledge that it wasn't the truth--implied that Natsuhi was committing adultery with Kinzo. Even if you think that breaking Natsuhi's delusion of Kinzo was all right, there is no excuse for putting forth a hateful theory she knows is incorrect in order to do nothing but cause anguish for Natsuhi.

Honestly, people that say this are ridiculous. What did Bern and Erika do that was so helpful? They railroaded an innocent woman and everyone died anyway. Yes, that was terribly helpful for all involved.
Not only that, they knew from the beginning that Natsuhi was innocent, they have seen a red denying it and didn't even flinch.
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Old 2010-01-15, 03:35   Link #2162
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
It’s Lambda’s gameboard after all, where Natsuhi could easily be a mass murderer as well as an adulteress.

For all I know, Berun is in the same position as us readers for the duration of EP 5 (as well as in previous episodes, with the only difference the gameboard being of Beato’s doing).
Did you forget about how she was told that Kinzo is dead and Natsuhi is not the culprit before she started accusing Natsuhi of adultery and getting Kinzo to haul bodies around?
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Old 2010-01-15, 03:38   Link #2163
Smeckledorf
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I would like an answer to these two questions.
What is the kanji of areca nut?
What is the romaji for areca nut?
Thanks in advance. In case some people do not know the reference it is mentioned fairly early in this episode by Natsuhi.
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Old 2010-01-15, 03:39   Link #2164
Jan-Poo
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Only GM is in possession of the ultimate (gold) truth.
This theory that gold truth is an "ultimate" truth is completely false. It's almost impossible to determine what gold truth really is, but the very fact that Dlanor says that it is sometimes inferior to red, makes clear that it isn't an "ultimate" truth.
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Old 2010-01-15, 03:43   Link #2165
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OK, I'll admit Lambda and Berun know at least some of the ultimate truth behind Umineko (it's hard to dispute that after the Ep 4 ??? tea party) - I was arguing more for the sake of argument above. However, the extent of that knowledge and whether they truly interpret the red truths known to them correctly is absolutely unverifiable at this point in the story.

Besides, would you care to explain why at the end of EP 5 Berun was perfectly satisfied that "case was closed", which was further approved by Lambda? Wouldn't it be more classy for a grand witch like Berun to obtain a fair win (i.e. present the real culprit, which, as you imply, must be known to her) rather than to cheat her way out?
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Old 2010-01-15, 03:53   Link #2166
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Quote:
Not only that, they knew from the beginning that Natsuhi was innocent.
Which, according to you, must mean that Ep 5 was one giant troll from beginning to end.

Nicely done, R07!
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Old 2010-01-15, 04:01   Link #2167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
Besides, would you care to explain why at the end of EP 5 Berun was perfectly satisfied that "case was closed", which was further approved by Lambda? Wouldn't it be more classy for a grand witch like Berun to obtain a fair win (i.e. present the real culprit, which, as you imply, must be known to her) rather than to cheat her way out?
Let me ask you a question. If Bern is so "classy", then why wasn't she happy at Battler's resurrection? Surely it only makes sense for her to step down with grace, now that someone with an actual emotional investment in the Ushiromiya family is ready to take over the game, especially when it's obvious that he knows the truth that Bern probably doesn't. Funny how her reaction was so infuriated...why, you'd almost think she doesn't care about anything but winning!
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Old 2010-01-15, 04:04   Link #2168
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Two witches are having a game to elevate boredom. Witch 1 proposes a riddle she already knows a solution to. Witch 2, who also knows the correct solution, proposes an alternative solution both of them know to be wrong. Furthermore, even the readers know the alternative solution to be wrong.

Supposedly this is all done for the benefit of Observer X in order to further confuse him. The problem is, Observer X is not even guaranteed to be present at the game at all.

I have only one question: what is the point of the above? Or is it simply a textbook case of bad writing?
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Old 2010-01-15, 04:19   Link #2169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
OK, I'll admit Lambda and Berun know at least some of the ultimate truth behind Umineko (it's hard to dispute that after the Ep 4 ??? tea party) - I was arguing more for the sake of argument above. However, the extent of that knowledge and whether they truly interpret the red truths known to them correctly is absolutely unverifiable at this point in the story.

Besides, would you care to explain why at the end of EP 5 Berun was perfectly satisfied that "case was closed", which was further approved by Lambda? Wouldn't it be more classy for a grand witch like Berun to obtain a fair win (i.e. present the real culprit, which, as you imply, must be known to her) rather than to cheat her way out?
Well, I suppose it's not like she's ever been accused of cheating at a witch's game before-- oh, wait. Lambda accused her of cheating at the Hinamizawa game.

In any case, based on Bern's conversations with Lambda and Ryukishi's interviews:
- Lambda does know who the culprit is, since she's capable of being the game master. She can use the gold truth if she wants, since she knows what really happened.
- Bern does not know who the culprit is and can't use the gold truth, but she doesn't care because exposing the real culprit wasn't her objective in the first place. What she wanted to do was destroy the witch's illusion by denying Beato's argument that only a witch could commit the crimes. Any trumped-up culprit would do for that.
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Old 2010-01-15, 04:23   Link #2170
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Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
I have only one question: what is the point of the above?
They didn't care about Observer X in the slightest, they were purposely misusing the board for their own amusement. It was a game to corner and hurt one of the pieces, in order to gain plausible denial of the existence of Beato, not to expose the truth in any form.

That's what happens when you get people playing the game in order to "scribble on the board." All of this was laid out for the reader in the prologue of the game.
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Old 2010-01-15, 04:26   Link #2171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
Which, according to you, must mean that Ep 5 was one giant troll from beginning to end.
Yes, that's exactly what it is.
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Old 2010-01-15, 04:27   Link #2172
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
Which, according to you, must mean that Ep 5 was one giant troll from beginning to end.

Nicely done, R07!
Is the fact that Ryukishi trolls a news? After EP3 there shouldn't be any doubt.

Let me quote Lyrical Aura

Quote:
Bern does not know who the culprit is and can't use the gold truth, but she doesn't care because exposing the real culprit wasn't her objective in the first place. What she wanted to do was destroy the witch's illusion by denying Beato's argument that only a witch could commit the crimes. Any trumped-up culprit would do for that.
That's how it is, there's really little reasons to question it.
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Old 2010-01-15, 04:35   Link #2173
Dr. Akagi
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Quote:
In any case, based on Bern's conversations with Lambda and Ryukishi's interviews:
- Lambda does know who the culprit is, since she's capable of being the game master. She can use the gold truth if she wants, since she knows what really happened.
- Bern does not know who the culprit is and can't use the gold truth, but she doesn't care because exposing the real culprit wasn't her objective in the first place. What she wanted to do was destroy the witch's illusion by denying Beato's argument that only a witch could commit the crimes. Any trumped-up culprit would do for that.
That perspective makes EP 5 look less pointless for sure, however:

1) that info you’ve presented can’t be inferred from the SN alone, which (even if the info itself is true) screams bad writing for me;

2) still doesn’t explain why Lambda acknowledged Berun’s victory at the end of Ep 5;

3) makes Berun’s actions look silly, because the only certain (and don’t forget, she’s playing with the Witch of Certainty there) way to defeat the Illusion of the Witch is to try to present the real culprit, not some half-baked fake.
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Old 2010-01-15, 04:47   Link #2174
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No, Bern doesn't care who the real culprit is really. Erika and Bern was going to let Natsuhi pin the crime on Krauss, so there is really no way they were looking for the true culprit. I don't think they minded pointing the true culprit out if they found it but they did not. Second, Battler is also lying because he will NOT point out the true culprit. The truth is something special to Battler as seen when he found it.
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Old 2010-01-15, 04:54   Link #2175
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Actually it should be pretty clear by now that Bern doesn't really give a rat's ass who wins or who loses as long as she's entertained. She pushes both sides along so as to let the game continue, and she's clearly manipulating and switching sides to keep the game going indefinitely. She doesn't care whether Erika discovers anything or not, hell she treats her like crap most of the time.
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Old 2010-01-15, 05:47   Link #2176
Smeckledorf
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Actually it should be pretty clear by now that Bern doesn't really give a rat's ass who wins or who loses as long as she's entertained. She pushes both sides along so as to let the game continue, and she's clearly manipulating and switching sides to keep the game going indefinitely. She doesn't care whether Erika discovers anything or not, hell she treats her like crap most of the time.
Incorrect, Bern and Erika strive to win. Just like Erika, Bern likes to show she is intellectually superior and they both don't care what measures are taken to win this game. Lambdadelta has been said to be the one who sides with the side that is currently losing to keep the game going.
You are mistaken by just taking into account the fear of boredom witches have. Bern does hate being bored but she has stated several times that she wanted to speed this game up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
I would like an answer to these two questions.
What is the kanji of areca nut?
What is the romaji for areca nut?
Thanks in advance. In case some people do not know the reference it is mentioned fairly early in this episode by Natsuhi.
Just in case someone who knows the answer doesn't scroll up enough.
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Old 2010-01-15, 06:03   Link #2177
Dr. Akagi
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Quote:
Incorrect, Bern and Erika strive to win. Just like Erika, Bern likes to show she is intellectually superior and they both don't care what measures are taken to win this game. Lambdadelta has been said to be the one who sides with the side that is currently losing to keep the game going.
You are mistaken by just taking into account the fear of boredom witches have. Bern does hate being bored but she has stated several times that she wanted to speed this game up.
True that. Thanks for saving me time typing.

That's why I can understand Bern trying to frame someone (whether it's Natushi or Krauss) at the last moment out of desperation to win (to prove her intellectual superiority), but that by itself isn't proof enough she is an evil bitch bent on framing innocent people for her entertainment. That is oversimplifying things imho.

And that was basically my point all along. Bern/Erika may be accused of a certain intellectual laziness or of lack of integrity, but at this point in the story it is unfair to judge them as acting out of an outright malice.
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Death and its implications as viewed by the Umineko No Naku Koro Ni characters.

Last edited by Dr. Akagi; 2010-01-15 at 06:14.
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Old 2010-01-15, 06:45   Link #2178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I posted this in another thread:

The possibility exists that the person who uses the name "Kanon" on Beatrice's gameboard has never died.

The details of that theory are in that post I made. I'm not saying that Kanon is the mastermind, I'm just saying that it's possible that Battler isn't the only one surviving each time.

Also, regarding the number of people on the island what about this:

EPISODE 2
No one exists in this room except all of you. All of you refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included
Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that are you were not aware of
No one is hiding


Beatrice is only referring to the humans in the rooms therefore ninja culprit X is running around killing people.

EPISODE 3
Way before the first twilight occurs Beatrice says: There are no more than 18 people on this Rokkenjima

Right after she says that the culprit(or culprits) takes a boat to Rokkenjima. The red is not violated because it was true at the time.

Then the culprit(or culprits) kills at least 4 people. Kinzo is already dead and see my previous theory for why "Kanon" may also be already dead.

Next we get Virgilia saying, "There are no more than 19 people on this island".

Kinzo is already dead and Beatrice lowered the number of people on the island because dead people don't count as people on the island anymore. Therefore this red is not violated.

That Kinzo rule also applies when Eva-Beatrice says, There are no more than 18 people on this island.

EPISODE 4
All the reds come after everyone is dead so just apply the Kinzo rule and you can have as many as 16 extra culprits on the island.

EPISODE 5
The number of other people existing on the island is exactly the same as in the previous games.

That's great. So if we can't rule out that people are sneaking onto the island from the other games we don't know how the number of people on the island changes.

Lambda also says: In short, the number of people in the parlor at this moment is the same as the number of people existing on the island.

The culprit(or culprits) is hiding in the parlor at the moment of the red declaration! Listening to everyone's conversation.

I think that theory might be a stretch but what worries me is the fact that there is no way to absolutely disprove it.
I was so sad to read everything past The possibility exists that the person who uses the name "Kanon" on Beatrice's gameboard has never died.
Not because of your theory but I believe Kanon might have a twin on the island so I thought you were going to say the same thing. In particular, the second episode convinces me that this is possible. I think this episode is very hard to explain without it because there is always a need for another person on the island. Erika keeps everyone pretty tightly knit together and unless she did not know you were gone she probably would have put a tracker on you just in case.
The phone call around midnight of the first day is really awkward because mostly everyone has a decent alibi. Unless we consider Jessica hates her mother.
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Old 2010-01-15, 06:53   Link #2179
Jan-Poo
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1) that info you’ve presented can’t be inferred from the SN alone, which (even if the info itself is true) screams bad writing for me
It can be inferred by the simple fact everyone witnessed the red truth about Natsuhi not being the culprit. You said it yourself the red is not questionable. It doesn't matter if in that trial it couldn't be accepted for some internal rule. The red is the truth there's no reason to question it.

Another thing that is quite clear is the fact that Bern knows that Kinzo is dead.

I present this fact: Lambda says in front of Bern and Battler that: "Kinzo is already dead"

There is absolutely no possible way for Bern to doubt that. However Erika makes a theory that involves Kinzo being still alive, and Bern allows her to use that explanation.

How do you explain that?
Remember, Erika uses Kinzo as a way to explain how the bodies disappeared, so Bern knows well that this theory is false and therefore she knows she hasn't really found an explanation for this mystery.

Quote:
2) still doesn’t explain why Lambda acknowledged Berun’s victory at the end of Ep 5
Well can you? Even with your theory Bernkastel and Erika still didn't find the right solution. If your assumption is that Lambda wouldn't give them the victory unless they find the true culprit, then you are going to have a problem making sense out of it.

Bern and Erika didn't find the truth, but Lambda accepted their victory anyway <- this is a fact

Quote:
3) makes Berun’s actions look silly, because the only certain (and don’t forget, she’s playing with the Witch of Certainty there) way to defeat the Illusion of the Witch is to try to present the real culprit, not some half-baked fake.
This is not what Bern believes as I have clearly demonstrated.
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Old 2010-01-15, 06:58   Link #2180
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After reaching a certain segment in the sixth game, yes, I guess I stand corrected on Bern. Of course there's still a lot of clarifications needed on her true objective, as she's clearly invested a lot of time and effort in this that a simple alleviation of boredom or a simple victory probably just doesn't suffice.
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