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Old 2010-01-15, 10:18   Link #2201
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The fact that they were alive was never stated in red. Sure this is a plausible option be it is equally plausible that the "lie" is the fact that the corpses disappeared

1) From one side you have a narrator that tells you that George and the others have their necks almost completely slit, and a lot of people are seeing them and cry and scream.

2) From the other side you have a narrator that tells you that people go check the bodies and do not found them. That scene wasn't even shown, 'though it is confirmed in later dialogues.

What makes you think that it is more probable that the first one was a lie rather than the second?
That doesn't work. That is because Erika was both present in Krauss' room and the cousins' room when people discovered that the corpses weren't there anymore, especially the latter with Lambda and Bern chatting straight away about the possible body disappearance trick.
Unless you are claiming that Bern doesn't even use Erika's POV to check whether or not the narration is true (which would be stupid considering she obviously know the shrodinger cat box concept), that pretty much mean the corpses did disappear.

If however you think that they weren't even present in their room during the discovery, that doesn't change anything: that the survivors lied to Erika. Either way, it is as I mentioned already: the only way for this trick is that the victims were actually alive and were hiding at some point, before being killed (ambushed?).




Anyway, regarding the whole Bern discussion, I must remind you all that Beato was nowhere kind enough: it is indeed confirmed she wanted Battler to resolve the mystery of rokkenjima, but did she need to impersonate a cruel psychotic murdering witch?
Of course not. However, even though it was overdone, it HAD a purpose, and it worked on Battler.
I'm not trying to justify Bern cruelty here, as it was definitely unecessary 99% of the time. However, there might be a reason aside of the "bored to death, enjoying people's suffering" explanation. Suffice to say, there are equal chances for her to be deep down sadist to the bone (I still think it is 50/50). I personally think that ambiguous stance is the most interesting part of her character: that she can be both an ally and an enemy... quite suitable for a cat like her.

Also, I'm rather surprised that people quickly forgot about Lambda's cruel comments as well. You don't need to show a troll face to reveal your true colors either. Lambda had her plenty share of horrible jabs that I don't think she is any "less" cruel than Bern (don't tell me the whole hamburger stuff is softcore: that was basically a bitch slap to Battler).
To the contrary, I think that Lambda still has the potential to be the last "boss", as much as Bern.
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Old 2010-01-15, 11:48   Link #2202
Jan-Poo
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Well who said that Lambda is good? She's quite cruel herself, and Beato was also quite cruel until Battler made her notice that laughing at people being slaughtered is wrong.

As for Bern's purpose at this point I don't think she has any purpose whom Battler would like. Or well having a purpose doesn't justify one's actions. Even Hitler had a purpose in mind. The hypothesis that Bern's purpose is even remotely good doesn't have the slightest basis as of now.
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Old 2010-01-15, 11:51   Link #2203
maximilianjenus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Episode 6 mentioned
just stop it, please, it's kind of annoying.


I think gohda's diary also implied natsuhi being kinzo's lover.

AFAIk, anti-fantasy is to prove that the crime could have been commited by humans, so for erika/bern to win using that aproach it does not matter if the culprit was krauss or natushi or anybody else, as long as they pinpoint one culprit, whom does not even has to be the real culprit, kind of like Episode 3 eva. mistery is all about finding the real culprit, which is apparenly softer because you are not "abusing" the innocent.
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Old 2010-01-15, 12:16   Link #2204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There was no need for Lambda to be the Judge in this game. Lambda just decided to do so by herself. I think there are two main possibilities to explain Lambda's behavior:

1) Letting Bern win this game was in her plans since the beginning. After all Bern would just win a battle not the war. The fact that a sixth game was in program means that Bern still didn't win on all fronts. Maybe Lambda had something in mind for that sixth game.

2) Lambda doesn't care that much about Bern winning, so far she just lied and the only thing she cares is to enjoy this game and enjoy seeing Bern struggling to solve it.
I vaguely recall someone in EP 5 stating that Lambda wanted to sway Battler over to the witch's side. It makes some sense from a strategic standpoint; while Battler is earnestly playing the witch side he can't meet his initial winning condition (disprove witches) and end the game.

Given that, leaving Beato and Natsuhi exposed and helpless against Bern's attacks could be part of her plan. Battler isn't exactly hard to predict. I'm sure she knew that he would jump to their aid rather than supporting his supposed ally Erika, especially after piece Battler had done the same in Kinzo's study. Then, of course, there's the retrial which she is all too happy to grant to him.
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Old 2010-01-15, 16:14   Link #2205
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I kind of wonder about Lambda's motivations myself. She's been helping Battler off and on since she first appeared in Episode 2. Granted, she usually only helps him when he's about to lose.

But consider this- if she hadn't picked up where Beato left off and played through Episode 5, the whole trial charade would have never taken place. Without the trial, Battler wouldn't have been thoroughly trounced by Dlanor and Knox's Decalogue. Without that defeat, he wouldn't have taken the time to think through all the things Dlanor and Virgilia taught him, and he wouldn't have solved the mystery.

Instead, he would have lounged around in the Golden Land, vainly trying to make sense of Beato's moves while Virgilia gives him the occasional pointer, and gotten noplace. The same thing would have happened if Lambda debunked Erika's theory by saying that Kinzo is dead with the red. The trial would have ended and it'd be back to business as usual for Battler.


And remember, Lambda isn't just all too happy to give Battler a retrial, she even hands him the Game Master's position, status as a Sorcerer, overrules Bern's objections, and lets him win the new trial:Battler is not the culprit in any game. She could have trashed his crazy theory and given the win back to Erika, who would have had a mangled but still workable theory. Hell, when Dlanor was denying any red or blue regarding Kinzo, Lambda even hinted there was another option.

Is Lambda helping Battler, hindering him, or trying to make the game reach a perpetual stalemate?
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Old 2010-01-15, 16:20   Link #2206
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
I think gohda's diary also implied natsuhi being kinzo's lover.
Except EP 5 should disprove that in any form.
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Old 2010-01-15, 16:45   Link #2207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
I kind of wonder about Lambda's motivations myself. She's been helping Battler off and on since she first appeared in Episode 2. Granted, she usually only helps him when he's about to lose.

But consider this- if she hadn't picked up where Beato left off and played through Episode 5, the whole trial charade would have never taken place. Without the trial, Battler wouldn't have been thoroughly trounced by Dlanor and Knox's Decalogue. Without that defeat, he wouldn't have taken the time to think through all the things Dlanor and Virgilia taught him, and he wouldn't have solved the mystery.

Instead, he would have lounged around in the Golden Land, vainly trying to make sense of Beato's moves while Virgilia gives him the occasional pointer, and gotten noplace. The same thing would have happened if Lambda debunked Erika's theory by saying that Kinzo is dead with the red. The trial would have ended and it'd be back to business as usual for Battler.


And remember, Lambda isn't just all too happy to give Battler a retrial, she even hands him the Game Master's position, status as a Sorcerer, overrules Bern's objections, and lets him win the new trial:Battler is not the culprit in any game. She could have trashed his crazy theory and given the win back to Erika, who would have had a mangled but still workable theory. Hell, when Dlanor was denying any red or blue regarding Kinzo, Lambda even hinted there was another option.

Is Lambda helping Battler, hindering him, or trying to make the game reach a perpetual stalemate?
Battler may not be a culprit in any game, it may be a dirty trick but if we consider he in actuality is not Battler Ushiromiya then he can still be the culprit. If he is the child from 19 years ago, then it is likely he was born under a different name and then it is debatable what name he is actually to use. I believe Beatrice never said YOU aren't the culprit, if she has then ignore this part.
Anyways, the witches seem to use red truth freely but if they really could then Bern would have her answer by now. She could just go down the list of names saying in red each time [name] is not the culprit. When she does not get red she has her answers. There has to be some sort of limit to the red they can use is the most probable answer in my opinion.
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Old 2010-01-15, 17:01   Link #2208
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Virgillia did say in red that Battler was not the culprit. Not, "Ushiromiya Battler is not the culprit." Just Battler, refering to the one we've know as Battler throughout the entire sound novel. But that's only assuming that she meant our Battler, because, like you've said there are two Battler's.

But if we look a little deeper then that would mean that both Battler's are not the culprits and we can definitely rule out those two from the possible culprit list.
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Old 2010-01-15, 17:18   Link #2209
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Originally Posted by Amegashita View Post
Virgillia did say in red that Battler was not the culprit. Not, "Ushiromiya Battler is not the culprit." Just Battler, refering to the one we've know as Battler throughout the entire sound novel. But that's only assuming that she meant our Battler, because, like you've said there are two Battler's.

But if we look a little deeper then that would mean that both Battler's are not the culprits and we can definitely rule out those two from the possible culprit list.
I can't see why she would refer to another Battler when talking to Battler. It's blatant lying and in that situation there seems to be no reason for Virgilia to lie, when she was seriously speaking to Battler about Beatrice. Besides our Battler being the culprit would be terrible writing to be quite frank, since he has an alibi for pretty much every situation.
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Old 2010-01-15, 17:27   Link #2210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Anyways, the witches seem to use red truth freely but if they really could then Bern would have her answer by now. She could just go down the list of names saying in red each time [name] is not the culprit. When she does not get red she has her answers. There has to be some sort of limit to the red they can use is the most probable answer in my opinion.
She could... but it's more fun to have Natsuhi, Beato, and Battler suffer a whole lot.

Your suggestion is boring. Immortals hate boredom, which is why they're evil.
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Old 2010-01-15, 17:41   Link #2211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
I kind of wonder about Lambda's motivations myself.
Spoiler for space:
Wasn't there some mention of a rock-paper-scissor analogy? I remember that Lambdadelta is weak against Bernkastel, and Bernkastel is weak against (X), and (X) is weak against Lambdatelta. Who was (X) again?

Anyways, Lambdadelta claimed the title of Game Master under the assumption that she is playing Battler. That way, she could have continued this series of games perpetually, albeit with her personal twists. But the fact that Bernkastel unexpectedly took over meant that Lambdadelta was likely to lose her bet. Remember, Dlanor was introduced by Bernkastel, not Lambdadelta.

And strangely, Battler the Golden Sorcerer makes a better Game Master against Bernkastel than Lambdadelta does. But that's simply because he finally realized that there is a single absolute truth, and he can employ it.

Edit: Granted, it probably means Lambdadelta will lose her bet anyways, but for her, it is better to make sure it goes on for at least a few more rounds than to kill it off immediately.
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Old 2010-01-15, 17:52   Link #2212
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
She could... but it's more fun to have Natsuhi, Beato, and Battler suffer a whole lot.

Your suggestion is boring. Immortals hate boredom, which is why they're evil.
Fun? Bern raped what she could of that game in an attempt for a victory. She obviously does not care about the costs or the immorality, she does seem to like torturing others but if she found the true culprit she could do that after the trial anyways. I think it is unlikely that red can be used like that. The only reason that would not work with unlimited use of red truth is that none of the characters are the culprit. Which is very, very unlikely.
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Old 2010-01-15, 18:38   Link #2213
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Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
Wasn't there some mention of a rock-paper-scissor analogy? I remember that Lambdadelta is weak against Bernkastel, and Bernkastel is weak against (X), and (X) is weak against Lambdatelta. Who was (X) again?
Beatrice, but more specifically any wielder of the Endless Magic.

It goes Certainty > Endless > 'Miracles' > Certainty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Fun? Bern raped what she could of that game in an attempt for a victory. She obviously does not care about the costs or the immorality, she does seem to like torturing others but if she found the true culprit she could do that after the trial anyways. I think it is unlikely that red can be used like that. The only reason that would not work with unlimited use of red truth is that none of the characters are the culprit. Which is very, very unlikely.
Bern doesn't give a rat's ass about the true culprit, like most people as saying. Although I'm sure she knows exactly who the true culprit is, it's far more enjoyable and convenient to convict Natsuhi. Because of this, I doubt the true culprit is someone Bern can torture easily...

And witches (actually, all supernatural beings) have the power to speak the truth in red. I'm not exactly sure how it works, either, but Virgilia seems perfectly capable of using red freely even though she probably doesn't know what really happened in Ep5.
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Old 2010-01-15, 19:26   Link #2214
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Anyways, the witches seem to use red truth freely but if they really could then Bern would have her answer by now. She could just go down the list of names saying in red each time [name] is not the culprit. When she does not get red she has her answers. There has to be some sort of limit to the red they can use is the most probable answer in my opinion.
There is a prerequisite that even witches must respect to say red truths. You need to "know" something to say it in red. There is a difference between knowing something and having proof that that something is true.

For example Battler has seen Virgilia's red truth about Natsuhi being not the culprit, so Battler automatically was able to say in red that Natsuhi was not the culprit.
You don't even need to be a witch to use red that way, as long as you know something you can say it in red.

The trial is a separate thing, in the trial it was forbidden to humans to use red without providing some kind of proof to back it. Or more specifically it was forbidden to make use of it. Battler could still say that Natsuhi was innocent in red. However that was countered by Dlanor with the knox rule that forbids the detective from using supernatural agencies as a detective method.

Witches are not bound to this limit, however they are still unable to say something in red unless they know it.
It appears that Bernkastel as the witch of miracles is able to convert a lower probability theory into a 100% theory. In other words as long as she reaches an almost certainty on some fact she can ignore the lowest probability and make it 100% certain. That means she can repeat it in red.
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Old 2010-01-15, 19:27   Link #2215
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Beatrice, but more specifically any wielder of the Endless Magic.

It goes Certainty > Endless > 'Miracles' > Certainty.



Bern doesn't give a rat's ass about the true culprit, like most people as saying. Although I'm sure she knows exactly who the true culprit is, it's far more enjoyable and convenient to convict Natsuhi. Because of this, I doubt the true culprit is someone Bern can torture easily...

And witches (actually, all supernatural beings) have the power to speak the truth in red. I'm not exactly sure how it works, either, but Virgilia seems perfectly capable of using red freely even though she probably doesn't know what really happened in Ep5.
Well, Virgilia and Ronove prior to episode 5 were the only ones who were implied to know how the game works. Lambda was an unsure candidate. The only time Battler asked Ronove reported that she seemed to have a grasp of the rules.
If we assume Bern knows some of the rules of the game and Lambda has talked to Beatrice about the game before, seeing as they were kinda on the same side, they know enough to use red truth in specific situations.
Then again, Battler pretty much did what I said could be done to figure out the culprit when Beatrice tried to deny he was part of the Ushiromia family. So, who knows? We do not know exactly how all these different color truths work exactly so asking why they aren't used in every situation won't get us anywhere.
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Old 2010-01-15, 19:28   Link #2216
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There is a prerequisite that even witches must respect to say red truths. You need to "know" something to say it in red. There is a difference between knowing something and having proof that that something is true.
I'm not so sure about this... I seem to remember something about witches being able to "create" new red.

Either way, how did Virgilia know for certain that Natsuhi isn't the culprit? Or does she know the Truth as well?
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Old 2010-01-15, 19:37   Link #2217
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She knows everything about Beatrice she probably knows everything about the game as well. After all she also disclosed red truths about Beatrice's motives. She also said in red that Battler isn't the culprit.

By the fact she used red even for the corpses of EP5 it appears she can see the gameboard. Also it appears that Battler could see the gameboard as well once he became the Game Master.


I don't remember anything about witches being able to create red. Bern can sublimate Erika's theories in red, but that's basically the process that I described earlier.

For witches to be able to create red, that would be kinda lame...
However... as you know I believe that the "games" are fictional stories and therefore the Game Master can create them, that means the Game Master can create "facts" inside the game and then use the red about them, so what you state is indirectly true in that regard.

However creating reds about the real world is impossible.
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Old 2010-01-15, 20:08   Link #2218
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Yea, I believe the same thing as you Jan-Poo, however I hold a second theory close to that one. They are in opposition but my second theory is less probable in my view. Batter is not the culprit. Rudolph is not the culprit. Kyrie is not the culprit. Krauss is not the culprit. Natsuhi is not the culprit. Jessica is not the culprit. Rosa is not the culprit. Maria is not the culprit. Eva is not the culprit. George is not the culprit. Kumasawa is not the culprit. Nanjo is not the culprit. Gohda is not the culprit. Genji is not the culprit. Kanon is not the culprit. Shanon is not the culprit. No, I do not take an antimystery stance but there are a few theories if true would back this up.Shanon and Kanon are the same person allowing another person to be on the island impersonating a person we currently know is on the island and has been introduced as such. Or Someone was killed before the game allowing a person to take the place of that person in disguise. I am in a hurry so I cannot keep going with my blue truth imitation crap but essentially Kanon, Nanjo, and/or Gohda are suspicious enough in my eyes to warrant them not being who they say they are.
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Old 2010-01-15, 20:10   Link #2219
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red text is a fact, that's all about it, it can be a fact for a specific fragment or it can be a fact for a group of fragments, that's all about it; all the talk about creating red text is unnecesary, it as only done for the trial's sake.


Quote:
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Except EP 5 should disprove that in any form.
How so ? I don't rememebr a single red text saying natsuhi has never been kinzo's lover which is the only way to prove that.
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Old 2010-01-15, 20:15   Link #2220
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
How so ? I don't rememebr a single red text saying natsuhi has never been kinzo's lover which is the only way to prove that.
Just because something is not in red doesn't mean it should be doubted when its obvious what the answer is. EP 5 makes this very clear. Remember the diary? Erika said Natsuhi didn't love Krauss because she didn't put in her diary, when it was clearly obvious that Natsuhi did love Krauss. The way Erika, Bern and Lambda mocked Natsuhi about Kinzo should make it obvious enough. Dlanor said Lambda and Bern were in a conspiracy to keep Kinzo alive and degrading Natsuhi and calling her basically a whore was the purpose it seems. Kinzo and Natsuhi sleeping together wasn't a nescessary element in Erika's theory, until she said Kinzo took the six bodies and hid them away.

Trusting everything in red means you automatically do not trust anything not said in red. This makes more than 75% of the story utterly useless.
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