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Old 2010-01-20, 01:00   Link #5481
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
And this I hope happens heartily. We may disagree on what the government should be doing ... but the bill outrages small "c" conservatives and progressives alike in that it simply served the mega-corps who bought out the Senate (and possibly Obama and his staff).
Corporate Left and Corporate Right look exactly the same to me....
I agree with you there. I'm all for Healthcare reform, but what was being pushed through Congress the past 6 months, is something that people on the right and the left are very much against. All the back room deals, hundreds of millions in bribes, it's absolutely digusting. I say we start over from scratch, and have an actual debate and discussion about how best to reform the Healthcare system, and Healthcare insurance. This is something we can't afford to just ramrod through. We need to be careful and do it properly the first time. Something so important should not be done half-assed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cors8 View Post
Hopefully, there'll also be reforms on Senate rules. It's pretty ridiculous to require 60 votes to even consider a bill. Gives too much power to a few Senators.

It's just amazing how even the threat of a filibuster forces so many stupid changes in a bill to appease a few Senators who'll vote against it anyway.
To be fair, some bills are too important to just let a simple majority ram through. Especially when they can effect the entire economy, citizens, and country. Not to mention once a bill gets put into law, it is almost impossible to overturn it at a later time.
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Old 2010-01-20, 05:13   Link #5482
Haruka_Kitten
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xD. Not what I'd call Democracy...

Seriously, I cannot believe I'm saying this (speaking from a free world democratic country), but I think democracy is an excuse to give people too much power.

Lets look at communist China. I mean, sure the idea of a great big internet filter is not what I'd call fair, but the quality of life sustained is quite reasonable. It's capitalist cousin Hong Kong is doing well in it's own right, where it seems laws like no spitting on the sidewalk are actually obeyed, and as a result, most environments are clean (such as MTR stations).

Now, over here, it would so seem with freedom, comes those idiots who would want to take advantage of that. As a result, senate spends most of question time trying to lobby ridiculous laws rather than review important trends and issues. I still don't trust myself walking down Point Cook Road after I had a run in with a drunk that threatened to bash me.

Nothing proper is going to get done quickly and efficiently in a democratic government. I'm not saying go communism (it'll be a hell of a long time before I agree to give up my constitutional rights as a free citizen of Australia), but wondering that maybe it just...works in some cases.
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Last edited by xris; 2010-01-20 at 11:14. Reason: Please do not quote retort images, thank you
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Old 2010-01-20, 05:24   Link #5483
Azuma Denton
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Democracy can be a double edge blade...
If your law enforcer dont act accordingly well, democracy can be democrazy...

An example would be in my country, Indonesia, where all the citizens practise free speech as a shape of democracy. Yes, free speech as literally,
- publishing books that bash the current goverment but without any evidence to backup the books.
- accusing someone but without any evidence to backup it again

Sometimes i would love to see how my country rules in monarchy. But alas, i bet that people in communism country like China will still say, democracy country is better than communism. Grass is always greener on the other side of fence...
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Old 2010-01-20, 07:04   Link #5484
karthak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post

To be fair, some bills are too important to just let a simple majority ram through. Especially when they can effect the entire economy, citizens, and country. Not to mention once a bill gets put into law, it is almost impossible to overturn it at a later time.
The problem with the filibuster is that if the parties despise each other completely, it's going to cripple decision-making. I'm not 100% sure on the years, but I read that in 1957 the filibuster was used about once a year. In recent years it's been something like 150 times each year. And now that the republicans have 41 votes, who wants to bet that they will block everything the democrats try to pass? And I'm pretty sure that the democrats would do the same if they were in minority (or not. Looks like the republicans have much better party-discipline).

It's tyranny of the minority.
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Old 2010-01-20, 08:28   Link #5485
andyjay729
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@Karthak:

Yeah, that's what happens when you have one side that seriously thinks the other is a bunch of Christian fascists who want a theocracy (with the Bill of Righs replaced by Mosaic Law and all gays and pornographers in concentration camps), vs. one side that seriously thinks the other is a bunch of Communists who want nothing less than the USSA (with free drugs for all and depraved gays and pornographers allowed to prey on YOUR CHILDREN).

That's the American Culture War in a nutshell. Sometimes I'm surprised there hasn't been a second civil war in this country.
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Old 2010-01-20, 09:17   Link #5486
karthak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyjay729 View Post
@Karthak:

with free drugs for all and depraved gays and pornographers allowed to prey on YOUR CHILDREN).


60% of all the most retarded decisions in the history of humanity have probably been done because of morons screaming "think of the children". That's almost certainly a fact.
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Old 2010-01-20, 10:51   Link #5487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I agree with you there. I'm all for Healthcare reform, but what was being pushed through Congress the past 6 months, is something that people on the right and the left are very much against. All the back room deals, hundreds of millions in bribes, it's absolutely digusting. I say we start over from scratch, and have an actual debate and discussion about how best to reform the Healthcare system, and Healthcare insurance. This is something we can't afford to just ramrod through. We need to be careful and do it properly the first time. Something so important should not be done half-assed.



To be fair, some bills are too important to just let a simple majority ram through. Especially when they can effect the entire economy, citizens, and country. Not to mention once a bill gets put into law, it is almost impossible to overturn it at a later time.
There is a thing called the supreme court, but yes health care reform should be about preventitive care but that won't happen because doctors make more money on pricey surgeries and pharms would rather make a pill to solve your problems. It's fucked up that ED caused by constricted veins and blood vessels most likely due to a senditary lifestyle is first prescribed viagra instead of telling the person to get healthy... American health is great for those that choose to destroy their lives and pay to get themselves patched together when ever they go overboard.
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Old 2010-01-20, 11:30   Link #5488
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I live in the same town as Scott Brown (Wrentham) so there was huge support for him in the past few weeks, so much so it was inescapable. I'm sure pretty much all the people in this area gave him their vote. I'm not entirely in tune with Brown's ideals but I'm happy he'll stop the current incarnation of the health bill from passing; it has become a monstrosity with all these revisions and compromises.

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Agreed. Let's burn the current Constitution and learn from the Chinese.
Or follow the constitution properly, which hasn't been done in my lifetime as far as I can remember...
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Old 2010-01-20, 11:52   Link #5489
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyjay729 View Post
@Karthak:

Yeah, that's what happens when you have one side that seriously thinks the other is a bunch of Christian fascists who want a theocracy (with the Bill of Righs replaced by Mosaic Law and all gays and pornographers in concentration camps), vs. one side that seriously thinks the other is a bunch of Communists who want nothing less than the USSA (with free drugs for all and depraved gays and pornographers allowed to prey on YOUR CHILDREN).

That's the American Culture War in a nutshell. Sometimes I'm surprised there hasn't been a second civil war in this country.
If there was, the left would lose very very very very very badly.
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Old 2010-01-20, 12:03   Link #5490
james0246
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^Way to prove andyjay729's point...

Cultural and political disparity aside, Master crime novelist Robert B Parker dies.

Quote:
Author of more than 60 books, Parker passed away at his home in Cambridge, Massachusetts, his American publisher Penguin confirmed. "He will be deeply missed by us all," Penguin said.

Parker began writing his Spenser novels in 1971, going on to pen 37 books starring his street smart, tough investigator who would inspire the 1980s television series Spenser: For Hire. In 2002, he was named Grand Master at the Edgar awards by the Mystery Writers of America, and has sold more than four million copies of his books around the world.

...

Novelist Robert Crais told AP that Parker "opened the doors for everyone who came after". "For a long time, the American detective genre was defined by the big three: Dashiell Hammett, Raymond Chandler and Ross Macdonald. I would say Robert Parker is the fourth," he told the newswire.
While I was never much of a fan of Parker's books, I did like the 80s series Spencer for Hire (Avery Brooks as Hawk was and still is freaking cool). Mostly I will remember the author because my father liked his books so much...

Also, Love Story author Erich Segal dies aged 72

Quote:
Erich Segal, best known as the author of Love Story, died on Sunday of a heart attack, his friend Ned Temko said today. He was 72.

Segal wrote the bestselling book about love and bereavement, which became a chart-topping film, in 1969 when he was 32 and a classics professor at Harvard. As its most famous line, "love means never having to say you're sorry", entered popular culture, Segal became a celebrity and regular on TV shows, as well as a commentator on the Olympic games for the ABC network.

However, he continued to write right up to his death, producing more than half a dozen novels, essays, literary criticism and, with his dear friend and comrade-in-comedy, Jack Rosenthal, a new English translation of the opening Friday-night Hebrew prayer for the West London Reform Synagogue. His last major work, in 2001, was a scholarly look at the history of comedy, and of dirty jokes, from the ancient Greeks through to Stanley Kubrick's Dr Strangelove.

Segal is survived by his wife and editorial collaborator, Karen, his elder daughter, the writer Francesca Segal, and his younger daughter Miranda, a student at Bristol University.
More than anything, I will always remeber Segal for writing The Yellow Submarine, which was my formal introduction, and the beginning of my love for, aniimation.

Last edited by james0246; 2010-01-20 at 12:17.
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Old 2010-01-20, 12:15   Link #5491
MrTerrorist
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Cadbury agrees Kraft takeover bid
How did Quakers conquer the British sweet shop?
Warren Buffett attacks Cadbury takeover
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Old 2010-01-20, 12:24   Link #5492
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Way to prove andyjay729's point...
Not sure how I proved his point. I only said who would win if there was a second true civil war in America. I didn't say anything about the right or wrong of the two factions in America. Just who would end up winning a true civil war.
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Old 2010-01-20, 12:35   Link #5493
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Not sure how I proved his point. I only said who would win if there was a second true civil war in America. I didn't say anything about the right or wrong of the two factions in America. Just who would end up winning a true civil war.
The amusing thing about your statement is that the ones who disarm themselves are ignoring the basic tools that provide power to the people:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mao
Experience in the class struggle in the era of imperialism teaches us that it is only by the power of the gun that the working class and the labouring masses can defeat the armed bourgeoisie and landlords.
Many progressives and leftists are not necessarily believers that only the state should wield power. But then we derail into the "new boss same as old boss" refrain.

Of course, the real conflict is a 4-way or even six/eight way:
left vs right
statism vs individualism
multinational corporate vs community
metro vs retro

This is complicated so the "left/right" simplification utterly fails as a descriptive model except to delude.
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Old 2010-01-20, 12:52   Link #5494
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The amusing thing about your statement is that the ones who disarm themselves are ignoring the basic tools that provide power to the people:
Many progressives and leftists are not necessarily believers that only the state should wield power. But then we derail into the "new boss same as old boss" refrain.

Of course, the real conflict is a 4-way or even six/eight way:
left vs right
statism vs individualism
multinational corporate vs community
metro vs retro

This is complicated so the "left/right" simplification utterly fails as a descriptive model except to delude.
How have the right disarmed ourselves? This should be interesting. Considering we're the ones holding the guns and fighting for free speech without getting jumped on the street during protests(something that people on the left are notorious for doing). -gets out his popcorn-
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Old 2010-01-20, 13:19   Link #5495
Nosauz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
How have the right disarmed ourselves? This should be interesting. Considering we're the ones holding the guns and fighting for free speech without getting jumped on the street during protests(something that people on the left are notorious for doing). -gets out his popcorn-
the right is fighting for freedom of speech.... LOL that's funny.
also... the right claims they want less government control yet they want to restrict the right for women to choose what they can and cannot do with their bodies... talk about the hypocrisy.
and a note... the "left" most likely wouldn't lose, but hey just because your a "leftist" means you don't know how to use a gun amirite. Your partisan talking points really do get boring.
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Old 2010-01-20, 13:37   Link #5496
mg1942
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anyways...

Who will be the next "safe" Democratic Senator to lose?

Boxer-CA
Schumer-NY
Feingold-WI
Bayh-IN
Other

?

(One vote, and add some explanation of you like)


I did not add people like Reid or Lincoln because they don't look safe. I'm thinking of people that before last week you would say "no way they could lose".
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Old 2010-01-20, 13:39   Link #5497
Nosauz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
anyways...

Who will be the next "safe" Democratic Senator to lose?

Boxer-CA
Schumer-NY
Feingold-WI
Bayh-IN
Other

?
partisanship... booyah.. this is what the founding fathers wanted /s
seriously this is getting old and childish, at least say something with some value like why these senators should leave office not just because their is a D/R next to their name. but then again that would be a pipe dream on my part because the reason you list them is because they have a D next to their name.
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Old 2010-01-20, 13:47   Link #5498
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Not sure how I proved his point. I only said who would win if there was a second true civil war in America. I didn't say anything about the right or wrong of the two factions in America. Just who would end up winning a true civil war.
Simple. You choose a side. Whether it was because of personal idealogical beliefs (right v. left), or you simply think the "right" has more guns is unclear, but, you took a post about how the political hackery and partisian douchebaggery could destroy America, and turned it in to a Conservative win.
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Old 2010-01-20, 13:52   Link #5499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
anyways...

Who will be the next "safe" Democratic Senator to lose?

Boxer-CA
Schumer-NY
Feingold-WI
Bayh-IN
Other

?

(One vote, and add some explanation of you like)
i don't see any of these guys losing. the difference between Mass seat is that was a open seat. these seats currently have sitting senators and sitting senators are extremely hard to unseat.

if you look back at the last several election when the democratic pick up senate. I think most of them were form open seats, only a few where form unseating a sitting senators.
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Old 2010-01-20, 14:13   Link #5500
cors8
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Let's be clear here. There are Republican seats in trouble too.

I think the mood in the country is anti-incumbent for both parties. Both parties have done a poor job so far.
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