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Old 2010-01-20, 13:00   Link #1001
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In that case why did you even start a discussion with me? You made quite clear that whatever I say you won't change your mind. I didn't address you, I was stating my point. You are free to believe whatever you want, if you are willing to open your mind to other points of view and confront your opinions with others you are welcomed, but if it's not the case don't waste my time.
You don't get my point.

I was curious to know what was on your mind, what theory you have.

If you have an imperfect theory, then we could make this closer to perfect. If you have a somewhat complete theory, then you are free to stick to your theory.

I don't change my mind since you did not attack my own theory, you were proposing a plausible answer to the mystery and I was just seeing whether I could break down this blue stake of yours.

The result turned out, I can't. But does it mean I have to change my mind to follow yours theory. No, because I have my blue stake as well, and as long as Ryu07 has not opened the catbox, I have full freedom to adhere to my unchallenged blue stake.

Don't expect that every discussion must mean one must change his mind in the end. And don't think that if the other side don't adopt your idea then the whole discussion is meaningless.

(of course, from my point of view, the more you stick to this Shkatrice theory, the more cheerful I will be. So if I can get you believing more into this theory by opposing you, or dissuading you from believing Shkatrice, this is both a win for me. So I have much reason to talk to you even if I more or less adhere to my own thoughts)
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Old 2010-01-20, 13:33   Link #1002
Crontica
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
To understand my answer to another user you need to understand the user's statement first.
Renall statement was that someone for some reasons is not a person.

Now there are only two possibilities about the red you quoted
1) it definitely demonstrate that Kanon is a person (and therefore the not-person must be someone else)
2) it doesn't demonstrate that Kanon is a person (and therefore doesn't deny the Shkannon theory).

In the first case

Kinzo is dead
Krauss is dead
Natsuhi is dead
Hideyoshi is dead
George is dead
Rudolf is dead
Kyrie is dead
Rosa is dead
Maria is dead
Genji is dead
Shannon is dead
Kanon is dead
Gohda is dead
Kumasawa is dead
Nanjo is dead
The 15 people mentioned are dead


By the same logic all of these people are persons. And therefore Renall's thesis about someone being not a person is limited to Eva Battler and Jessica.
Erika has been real sloppy with confirming who is alive or dead. As far as im concerned "Kanon" was dead from the start, the baby from 19 years ago is now posing as Kanon. To carry out revenge, The sin, bla bla bah. Shannon treats the real dead Kanon and Kanon as two different people which would explain why you guys keep running into Skhanon moments.
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Old 2010-01-20, 13:43   Link #1003
k//eternal
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What does that say about the red from EP4?

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!


If anyone's the child from 19 years ago, it'd have to be Shannon, especially since the child was almost certainly female, despite what was asserted over the phone.
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Old 2010-01-20, 13:50   Link #1004
Crontica
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
What does that say about the red from EP4?

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!


If anyone's the child from 19 years ago, it'd have to be Shannon, especially since the child was almost certainly female, despite what was asserted over the phone.
Just to make double sure does that same possibility also apply to Kinzo?

The only one who can claim Kinzo's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!

And yet some one posed as Kinzo which is pretty much the same as using the name Kinzo as a mask and therefore Every one Recognized Kinzo's existence.
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Old 2010-01-20, 14:11   Link #1005
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The red was no one would mistake another person for Kinzo, it was never said that no one can't claim his name. In fact if no one could claim his name then Battler wouldn't have had the the authority to do so in episode 5, but he did. I think Battler did theorize that Kinzo's name could be passed down along with the headship of the family and I don't remember it ever being denied.
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Old 2010-01-20, 14:12   Link #1006
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
Just to make double sure does that same possibly also apply to Kinzo?

The only one who can claim Kinzo's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!

And yet some one posed as Kinzo which is pretty much the same as using the name Kinzo as a mask and therefore Every one Recognized Kinzo's existence.
Kinzo does not exist. Furthermore, no phenomena exist that could be mistaken for Kinzo by sight, including disguises of any sort. The act of accepting the existence of something which is known not to exist is called "play-acting".

@Amegashita: When did Battler claim Kinzo's name?

EDIT:
There is still a possibility that someone impersonated Kinzo's voice over the phone rather than appearing in person. But since Kyrie, Gohda, and Kumasawa claimed that Kinzo actually appeared in the dining room, that raises more questions than it answers.
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Old 2010-01-20, 14:35   Link #1007
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You all make too many assumptions. Is this really a satisfactory answer for you? It doesn't even explain anything anyway. You still can't come up with a theory for who's killing, or why, that makes any satisfactory sense. You can't explain the disaster/bomb/who-knows-what, why it's there, and who did it. It seems like everyone's just leaping to embrace a theory that essentially helps you explain nothing at all. I'm convinced there's something far more important going on in ep6 and the goal was to mislead everyone with a meaningless "confirmation."
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
-Maybe Erika? Let me get this straight, you use the reds from episode3 as a way to deny the shkannon theory but you think it is possible that the so much better worded reds about Erika existence might be bypassed?
I don't see a whole lot of red that guarantees Erika's existence as strongly as you've all suggested. Until we get some reliable translations of the red, I'm not inclined to say any of them are as definitive or non-misleading as you seem to have just accepted they are.
Quote:
Is there really any logic hint or whatsoever to think that someone is more probable to not exist than Kanon or Shannon, other than the fact you don't want to believe it?
Narrative convention. They're too obvious. Again, this whole thing is practically being shoved in our faces. How can you trust it?
Quote:
-How is that better than the idea that either kanon or Shannon died before the game? Your claim is that you can find better explanations for the EP6 reds than the EP3 reds, so I expect a different logic, if they are equal I don't get your point.
The notion that Kanon or Shannon died before the game makes a hell of a lot more sense than one of them never even existing. It's still lame, but it's better than nothing. And I'm not saying one of them is always dead. Just that one of them could have died before Erika's arrival in ep6.
Quote:
-So you are still thinking that there are 17 persons? You must believe that Ryukishi is a very poor writer to use a completely inane and false statement as the killer ending of this Episode. For what concerns me Erika's red was shattered, the same way past red sentences were. You don't see her chocking simply because it was theatrically better that way. Not to mention that there has to be a reason as to why the exact number wasn't said so far and now it is.
The exact number cannot apply to previous episodes if you believe it the way you believe it, because Erika did not exist. The exact number provided can only be applied to the present game, even if it might be true of earlier games (minus one). You cannot deny this.

And what's this about red being "shattered?" It's red. It's true. It always has been. She could say it in red. So could Battler and Beatrice. They're both right. They have to be. So isn't that a problem? Isn't that something to think about? Why is what Erika said irrelevant? You might as well dismiss Natsuhi is not the culprit in ep5 because it wasn't accepted at the time. Well... it was still true, right?

Erika's statement is correct. Battler/Beato's statement is also correct. Any theory has to account for this. Shkanon alone does not satisfy both statements.
Quote:
-This doesn't account for a good point for you. in Episode3 Eva-Beatrice makes a list of 15 people dead and ends by saying that 15 people have died. Therfore you are either stuck with Battler Eva or Jessica not being persons or with the possibility that you can say "X persons have died" using loopholes. And if such a loophole exists then it can also be used for Kanon or Shannon in the previous red text that state that 6 persons have died.
Again, this is just one of a variety of alternative theories. I already said I had no idea why a person wouldn't count as a person. However, I am perfectly within my rights to make the suggestion if other people are going to make the insane suggestion that multiple personalities are separate people. If the level of argument has descended to "small bombs" vs. "killer seagulls," I don't see why I can't provide something equally silly.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't like that explanation. We're supposed to be getting at least some answers to the original four arcs, not messing around with things that Bern introduced to 'win' faster.
I don't believe he ever said Chiru is an "answer." It's simply there to provide confirmation to those who have already found the answer. But it in no way guarantees that what we see will be "right," and it in no way promises not to mislead us. Killing Shkanon in ep5 and then bringing it right back in ep6 is clearly intentional and designed to be confusing and uncertain. People "on the right track" can allegedly see through this. But Shkanon in ep6 is heavy-handed to the point of being blatantly obvious. That's way too suspicious given the way Chiru is allegedly supposed to work.
Quote:
There's about no way. Consider the family dinner in Ep1... everyone on the island except for Kanon, Genji, and Kinzo is in that room... and Genji is seen with too many other family members at other times to be impersonated by anyone. Then there's Battler finding the corpse of every single person in Ep4 except for Kanon's...

If you're to accept that Battler's viewpoint is reliable and that someone doesn't exist, it has to be Kanon.

There's no other answer that makes sense with what Battler sees.
ep5 parlor scene. Sorry, but we don't all get to just dismiss this. Explain how that scene works without massive narrative flaws or an outright trust-demolishing lie on behalf of the author. It's easier to imagine a ridiculous conspiracy to pretend Kumasawa exists than it is for me to believe that there is a rational and fair explanation for that scene. Until then, theories of other impersonations are equally as ridiculous and equally as possible.
Quote:
"There are no longer hints, but confessions." Honestly, I'd expect this kind of reveal from what's probably the second-to-last arc.
I don't see that as stating a confession of guilt. The "confessions" I got the impression it was talking about were more personal and emotional confessions, the truth of love that Battler has seen. After all, he refused to reveal the culprit.
Quote:
And, well, it DOES answer a lot of stuff. Remember how Umineko is supposed to be solvable? There ought to be one elegant solution, and the fanbase just might have stumbled across a piece of it we weren't supposed to find for a long time.
Shkanon does not provide an answer to anything except the ep6 riddle and the disappearance of Kanon's corpse. Have you honestly stopped thinking about it that hard? What the heck does it actually tell us? Shannontrice makes perfect sense and it's easy to understand its purpose (and the impersonation doesn't require she honestly believe she's Beatrice). But Shannontrice doesn't imply Shkanon, and Shannontrice doesn't imply Shannon = Culprit. It seems like people are freely mixing these three theories right now like they all rely on each other and that if one of them is true at least one of the others must be. Take a step back and ask yourself:
  • If Shannon and Kanon are the same person, how does this explain any of the murders? It doesn't. Shkanon wasn't necessary to Shannon or Kanon being culprit in ep1. It's not necessary in ep2 except for explaining where Kanon went. It's not necessary in ep3. It's not necessary in ep4. It's not necessary in ep5. It answers nothing.
  • And if Shkanon isn't the culprit, what is the point of Shkanon? It's a bizarre and meaningless appendage if it doesn't relate. If the real culprits are Hideyoshi and George, or Nanjo and Kyrie, or something like that, and Shkanon has nothing to do with them, what possible purpose does that serve to the story?
  • If Shannon created Kanon or took up his identity, why did she do this? There is no really important answer for this. The best I can think of is to keep Jessica's hopes alive. If your answer is "she has multiple personalities," you're acknowledging this is bad writing and Sayo (or Yoshiya, I guess) is just nuts. I expect better of Umineko than "lol someone was crazy and did stuff because they were crazy." "So she could fake her death" doesn't work, because Shannon could have faked her death in ep1 without Kanon, and she doesn't try faking her death at any other time with or without help from Kanon.
  • If Shkanon is the culprit, how does being two people actually help that? No matter what she does, she can't be in two places at once. Even if she's Shannon in one place to establish an alibi, when she's off killing someone as either Shannon or Kanon the people she was with are going to notice she left. It doesn't help her establish an alibi short of saying "I was with Kanon," and she almost never actually has the opportunity to say this.
If we weren't supposed to find it for a long time, the deception would be clearer. You don't think after Shmion that he wasn't watching carefully and thinking people would be looking for two characters who could be the same? There's nothing other than the ep5 parlor scene to even contradict the theory. People have been suggesting it since ep2, practically.

With Kinzo, we had much more elaborate deception. With Shkanon, we have very little that has tried to lead us away from the theory. That's way, way too suspicious to me. There's no way an elaborate and critical reveal like that would never be given some better obfuscation than one scene and a bunch of non-Battler scenes.
Quote:
...Just a question: Why are you so adamantly opposed to the theory?
Because it's abysmally bad writing, doesn't really add anything to the plot (as I noted, it isn't an answer), and is so obviously a trick that it kind of makes me physically sick to see everyone falling for it. Believe me, I know a lot of people believed it in the first place, and I know a lot of people didn't but are now convinced. But I won't be until I've had plenty of time to analyze everything, including all the red, and to read through ep6 in great detail myself. I'm pretty sure there's something else to all of this, but right now I couldn't say what that was.
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Old 2010-01-20, 14:41   Link #1008
Crontica
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Kinzo does not exist. Furthermore, no phenomena exist that could be mistaken for Kinzo by sight, including disguises of any sort. The act of accepting the existence of something which is known not to exist is called "play-acting".

@Amegashita: When did Battler claim Kinzo's name?

EDIT:
There is still a possibility that someone impersonated Kinzo's voice over the phone rather than appearing in person. But since Kyrie, Gohda, and Kumasawa claimed that Kinzo actually appeared in the dining room, that raises more questions than it answers.
If that is so, then that means Kinzo was not a human only a name = Text!Kinzo. Human!Kinzo does not exist. Never existed. Then he could never have be mistaken by sight. Then that means this Person-X was officially granted the Text!Kinzo name some where down the line, then became "Kinzo".
Then who the heck was the burnt corpse?! Person X 2!?

Edit:

Yaah this is becoming hectic..

Maybe Burnt corpse Person X2 was the Temp!Kinzo who passed his name to Person X1 before he died by Person X1.

Or

After Person X2 Passed down the name of Text!Kinzo to Person X1.. Person X1 Killed Person X2 and burnt his corpse, left the ring on the corpse to make it look like "Kinzo died" to create a Person X?
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Old 2010-01-20, 14:42   Link #1009
Amegashita
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
@Amegashita: When did Battler claim Kinzo's name?
When he was impersonating Kinzo in the 5th game as a way to prove how Kinzo was able to leave the room. It was stated by Erika I believe that since Battler is the new head she would allow him to show his theory. In a way that can be seen as "Claiming" his name for a period of time.
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Old 2010-01-20, 15:04   Link #1010
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't see a whole lot of red that guarantees Erika's existence as strongly as you've all suggested. Until we get some reliable translations of the red, I'm not inclined to say any of them are as definitive or non-misleading as you seem to have just accepted they are.
Because it confirms that Erika's body physically entered and exited a room, which prevents any possibility that she doesn't exist or she's just a personality unless you claim that Erika is another personality of someone already existent which doesn't really differs from the shkannon theory basically, with the minus point that unlike the shkannon theory doesn't explain how Kanon managed to escape from a sealed room. I think there is a certain unbalance in probabilities here.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Narrative convention. They're too obvious. Again, this whole thing is practically being shoved in our faces. How can you trust it?
I dunno... everything seems to point that the shkannon theory is true we are nearing at the end of the story and the next episode is probably going to teach us everything about Beatrice, why am I thinking that Ryukishi would give us the last chance, the last hints to figure out the truth by ourselves?

I guess our differences lies on the fact that Ryukishi is a total bastard while I do not. Sure he trolls a lot... in the beginning, but at this point in Higurashi a huge portion of the plot was exposed, still I guess you would say that it was too evident that
Spoiler for higurashi:
and therefore it had to be a huge troll!
I think there's quite a higher probability that the time where he tries to make the riddle difficult ended, and the time where he starts to give obvious hints already begun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And what's this about red being "shattered?" It's red. It's true. It always has been. She could say it in red. So could Battler and Beatrice. They're both right. They have to be. So isn't that a problem? Isn't that something to think about? Why is what Erika said irrelevant? You might as well dismiss Natsuhi is not the culprit in ep5 because it wasn't accepted at the time. Well... it was still true, right?
Beatrice was able to say in red that Sakutaro was made by rosa in red, but oddly enough it seems that workworkwork was right and it is only a normal plush, or at least that's what Ange said in this EP6. That particular red was shattered even so Beatrice reached the end of that statement. So I think it is possible that Erika managed to finish her sentence somehow. Those two reds can't possibly be both true anyway.
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Old 2010-01-20, 15:12   Link #1011
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I guess our differences lies on the fact that Ryukishi is a total bastard while I do not. Sure he trolls a lot... in the beginning, but at this point in Higurashi a huge portion of the plot was exposed, still I guess you would say that it was too evident that
Spoiler for higurashi:
and therefore it had to be a huge troll!
I think there's quite a higher probability that the time where he tries to make the riddle difficult ended, and the time where he starts to give obvious hints already begun.
Yeah, except he already did this with Shion and Mion. That's the point. He knows that we know that. That's why he's made fun of "Rokkenjima Syndrome" and a secret commando army and all that other stuff he already did. Why would you laugh along with him when he calls all the other stuff he already did ridiculous and then totally accept the one other thing he already did? Doesn't that bother you?
Quote:
Beatrice was able to say in red that Sakutaro was made by rosa in red, but oddly enough it seems that workworkwork was right and it is only a normal plush, or at least that's what Ange said in this EP6. That particular red was shattered even so Beatrice reached the end of that statement. So I think it is possible that Erika managed to finish her sentence somehow. Those two reds can't possibly be both true anyway.
Why can't they?

And the red about Sakutaro is kind of questionable. Beatrice was unable to finish stating it in red, just as Battler was unable to finish stating Asumu was his mother. It caused them pain, and they weren't able to finish. Erika didn't seem to have the same problem. Why was that? Granted, the part about Sakutaro being made by Rosa managed to get out. It's possible that was true, or at least was true in a fashion that satisfied the red.
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Old 2010-01-20, 15:19   Link #1012
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Erika was dying you can bet she was in pain.

The two reds are in total opposition one states that including Erika there are only 17 people the other states that Erika is 18th people. I can't see any way to make it work save from theories that defy the basics of aristotelian's logic

Quote:
Why would you laugh along with him when he calls all the other stuff he already did ridiculous and then totally accept the one other thing he already did? Doesn't that bother you?
Except he never made an entire episode that would make us believe in either of those thing you mention. This is just not the kind of troll Ryukishi would pull. If that really was a troll he would have done that like in Kinzo's case, a whole episode that made us believe us the shkannon theory was true only to destroy it at the very end. Except the "destroy" part is kinda lacking in this case, and the "make us believe is true" is quite overwhelming.
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Old 2010-01-20, 15:27   Link #1013
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The notion that Kanon or Shannon died before the game makes a hell of a lot more sense than one of them never even existing. It's still lame, but it's better than nothing. And I'm not saying one of them is always dead. Just that one of them could have died before Erika's arrival in ep6.
That's not how the person count works. If it works that way, it would be going down every time someone died in-game, and it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
ep5 parlor scene. Sorry, but we don't all get to just dismiss this. Explain how that scene works without massive narrative flaws or an outright trust-demolishing lie on behalf of the author. It's easier to imagine a ridiculous conspiracy to pretend Kumasawa exists than it is for me to believe that there is a rational and fair explanation for that scene. Until then, theories of other impersonations are equally as ridiculous and equally as possible.
I believe there's a line in Ep6 that states that the detective's perspective is only objective if they're the one narrating at the time.

Erika never narrates in Ep5, ever, and she certainly isn't narrating the parlor scene.

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Because it's abysmally bad writing
Ryukishi isn't that great a writer at all. He's good with coming up with overcomplicated mysteries and epic trolls, but his writing has never been that great.
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Old 2010-01-20, 15:31   Link #1014
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That's not how the person count works. If it works that way, it would be going down every time someone died in-game, and it isn't.
actually I think it is... for once Kinzo is not counted in the people limit, and I think somewhere in EP5 Battler made exactly the claim that dead people do not count.
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Old 2010-01-20, 15:31   Link #1015
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About Sakutaro there is a way for that red to still work. For example say someone at Rosa's workplace found the plans after her death and decided to try selling it. That way it was still one of a kind when Rosa made it. However when it got mass produced it was probably named differently. That way the red works fine. It would make for the ultimate irony if those designs ended up bailing her company out of trouble after her death now wouldn't it XD [/random theory >_>]
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Old 2010-01-20, 15:33   Link #1016
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Yeah that's what I also thought. I prefer to see it that way honestly, but logically speaking right now it's more probable that it's just a normal plush... sad 'though... I hope Ryukishi will show us that the theory you just mentioned is true.
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Old 2010-01-20, 15:35   Link #1017
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
actually I think it is... for once Kinzo is not counted in the people limit, and I think somewhere in EP5 Battler made exactly the claim that dead people do not count.
I don't remember that claim...

As for Kinzo, he's not counted among the "persons" because he's dead before the start time of the games. Dead people only count if they've died during the game, so there could be a thousand corpses beneath Rokkenjima just so long as they've died before October 4th.

That's my theory, at any rate.
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Old 2010-01-20, 15:51   Link #1018
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't remember that claim...

As for Kinzo, he's not counted among the "persons" because he's dead before the start time of the games. Dead people only count if they've died during the game, so there could be a thousand corpses beneath Rokkenjima just so long as they've died before October 4th.

That's my theory, at any rate.
I thought Human!Kinzo Did not exist? Can't kill what does not exist. That leaves that dead burnt corpse to be Temp!Kinzo Person X, Who gave His name to the knew person every one saw at the dinning room.
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Old 2010-01-20, 16:10   Link #1019
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That's not how the person count works. If it works that way, it would be going down every time someone died in-game, and it isn't.
That would never have come up in the previous games, as no exact number of people was ever fixed. Beatrice lowered the "no more than" limit for Kinzo, but that still doesn't mean she stated how many there were at the time, in general, or whenever.
Quote:
I believe there's a line in Ep6 that states that the detective's perspective is only objective if they're the one narrating at the time.

Erika never narrates in Ep5, ever, and she certainly isn't narrating the parlor scene.

Ryukishi isn't that great a writer at all. He's good with coming up with overcomplicated mysteries and epic trolls, but his writing has never been that great.
Alright, so Umineko is just crap then. The author can't write a proper answer without resorting to lying to the reader and reusing stupid plot twists he's already done before. Why even bother finishing it then? I'm sure we'd all be lying if we said we weren't looking forward to ep7. So do we trust him to actually pull something good out or not?

I'd also appreciate it if someone explained to me why I'm crazy on some of the points I raised. You know, explain the relevance of Shkanon if it is true.
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Old 2010-01-20, 16:18   Link #1020
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The problem is that you are just looking at it in a one sided manner. As well as there are red truths denying the shkannon theory, there are enough red truths in EP6 that you just can't explain with any theory that is better than the shkannon theory.
I don't think I have have to look at any other sides. If the theory is inconsistent with facts, then the theory is inconsistent no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So you have the same problem from one side and one other, and the only possible solution right now is to think about some lame loophole in either red, except no matter which side you choose they are both lame.
Mate, I don't know you, but in my opinion, the idea (read: idea, not theory, as theorists can only work with the hints they've been given) of Shkanontrice is lame already, I don't see why would you complain about other lame explanations.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Because red text not whitstanding you still need to explain what was the meaning of the love test trial which is arguably one of the center point of EP6. The shkannon theorist have a perfect explanation for it from the beginning to the end. What is your explanation?
We had a very similar test in EP4, remember? The test back then was supposed to designate the new family head; however, the main point of the test was to show the determination of those who were tested (except for Battler, whose test was to remember his sin), which also happens to be the main point of Z&F's test.

Also, remember how this whole game was said to be torture for Beatrice, and if you remember, 34 said Beatrice used to be in quite a pitiable state when she met her. This doesn't match Shannon at all, who has been having a good time with George, Jessica and in general. I also don't think this would apply to any other possible different personality of hers. And for that matter, I don't think it fits Jessica either.
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