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Old 2010-01-20, 16:28   Link #1021
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
I thought Human!Kinzo Did not exist? Can't kill what does not exist. That leaves that dead burnt corpse to be Temp!Kinzo Person X, Who gave His name to the knew person every one saw at the dinning room.
No, that's Kinzo's burnt corpse. Where it's been in the year and a half since he was dead, no one has any idea.

...Actually, that brings up an interesting point. Why does his corpse show up at some times but not at others? It shows up in Ep1, Ep3, and Ep4... what do those games have in common?

It has to be something like the internal phone line being cut. Genji has to be the one doing it, since whenever he dies in a first twilight the internal line still works. ...Do those three games have something in common that none of the other games do?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That would never have come up in the previous games, as no exact number of people was ever fixed. Beatrice lowered the "no more than" limit for Kinzo, but that still doesn't mean she stated how many there were at the time, in general, or whenever.
Then with Ep6's red, the "corpses don't count" theory has to assume that the Yamainu or someone like that are sneaking onto the island one by one after people start dying.

...I think we can agree that that's a very silly theory.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Alright, so Umineko is just crap then. The author can't write a proper answer without resorting to lying to the reader and reusing stupid plot twists he's already done before. Why even bother finishing it then? I'm sure we'd all be lying if we said we weren't looking forward to ep7. So do we trust him to actually pull something good out or not?
Shouldn't you have expected this? Ep3's third-person-narration is lying, for the love of god.

And no, I wouldn't trust Ryukishi to pull out anything good at this point. ...I honestly think there's some truth to the rumors that BT was ghostwriting the series.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'd also appreciate it if someone explained to me why I'm crazy on some of the points I raised. You know, explain the relevance of Shkanon if it is true.
It's not that it's relevant, it's that it clears up several non-central mysteries, like why Battler never sees Kanon's body.

It just makes sense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Also, remember how this whole game was said to be torture for Beatrice, and if you remember, 34 said Beatrice used to be in quite a pitiable state when she met her. This doesn't match Shannon at all, who has been having a good time with George, Jessica and in general. I also don't think this would apply to any other possible different personality of hers. And for that matter, I don't think it fits Jessica either.
Even if Shkannon isn't real, Shannontrice is. It's about all that makes sense after what we're shown with that flashback in Ep6.

Unless you're with ijriims and believe that Battler's (step)mother was in love with him...
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Old 2010-01-20, 16:32   Link #1022
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Ugh.. Could it be that Shanon and Kanon share the same life force and that when one side gathers too much luck the other falters?

Because no matter how badly i try to wrap my head around the Skhanon theory it provides no advantage what so ever.

The theme is all about finding the most clever way to be at two places at once which is what Eva + Chibi!Eva accomplished. The current Skhanon theory is one person using two persona's which is no different than one person.

The only way this is going to work is if Kanon and Shanon registers as one person in the Meta!World while in the Real!World they are seen as two different people.
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Old 2010-01-20, 16:35   Link #1023
Chishio no Hana
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Regarding ShKanon, last time I checked, the main basis of that theory was the fact that Battler didn't see them together until ep 5, and the 'including you there are only 17 people on Rokkenjima'

however, correct me if I'm wrong..... but last time I checked, both Kanon and Shannon were in the chapel in ep 2. Battler was also in the chapel at that time. That would mean that he saw them together, even if it was stated in those exact words, would it not?
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Old 2010-01-20, 16:40   Link #1024
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Even if Shkannon isn't real, Shannontrice is. It's about all that makes sense after what we're shown with that flashback in Ep6.
I've already pointed out inconsistencies regarding Shannontrice. Please, don't take me as an arrogant, as I'm as lost as anyone else, but I don't want to write that again. I posted that a few pages ago (along with what I just posted in my previous post).

Also, honestly, just by process of elimination we cannot say Shannon is definitely Beatrice. Sure, I'm not denying that possibility, but as I've pointed out, there are some things that just conflict with that idea, unless Shannon is really fucked up in the head.

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Originally Posted by Chishio no Hana View Post
however, correct me if I'm wrong..... but last time I checked, both Kanon and Shannon were in the chapel in ep 2.
They weren't there together by the time Battler reached the chapel. Rosa ordered Shannon and Genji to contact Kinzo. So, when Battler arrived, only Kanon was there.
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Old 2010-01-20, 16:51   Link #1025
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Personally, I believe that Metaworld Beatrice is not representative of the culprit.
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Old 2010-01-20, 16:53   Link #1026
Crontica
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
No, that's Kinzo's burnt corpse. Where it's been in the year and a half since he was dead, no one has any idea.

...Actually, that brings up an interesting point. Why does his corpse show up at some times but not at others? It shows up in Ep1, Ep3, and Ep4... what do those games have in common?

It has to be something like the internal phone line being cut. Genji has to be the one doing it, since whenever he dies in a first twilight the internal line still works. ...Do those three games have something in common that none of the other games do?
You say that burnt corpse is Human!Kinzo, then the corpse makes no sense in Ep4. It was like they are saying Kinzo was alive and dead at the same time unless the people in the dinning hall were acknowledging the New Kinzo or Text!Kinzo + Person X.

Then the "Kinzo" everyone saw at the dinning hall who they did not mistake. Was the New Kinzo every one accepted a long time ago? Then this new "Kinzo" is just a Person X + Text!Kinzo.

The corpse not showing up at Ep2 added hope that maybe he was still alive which changed nothing.

Could it be Ep4 was special in some way, or this Person X only existed in this Ep only.
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Old 2010-01-20, 17:01   Link #1027
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It's not that it's relevant, it's that it clears up several non-central mysteries, like why Battler never sees Kanon's body.

It just makes sense...
That is literally one of the only things it clears up. It's an anemic explanation for anything that's actually worthy of being solved. After all, Kanon's body disappearing in ep4 wasn't relevant, because we knew he couldn't be the final culprit given the red text. So it basically only clears up ep2, and in doing so... makes it a lot harder to pin the crime on someone.

But its value to the storyline is grossly overrated. I don't think people have even bothered to ask the consequences of such a revelation and whether it actually helps solve anything. I've gone so far as to assume it as true and looked at what results, and I'm honestly not very impressed. It resolves practically nothing of importance, and just raises even more questions whose answers would be far more interesting.
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Old 2010-01-20, 18:06   Link #1028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Also, remember how this whole game was said to be torture for Beatrice, and if you remember, 34 said Beatrice used to be in quite a pitiable state when she met her. This doesn't match Shannon at all, who has been having a good time with George, Jessica and in general. I also don't think this would apply to any other possible different personality of hers. And for that matter, I don't think it fits Jessica either.
Could you clarify? Do you mean six years ago? I never saw Shannon as being that explicitly cheerful.


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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
No, that's Kinzo's burnt corpse. Where it's been in the year and a half since he was dead, no one has any idea.
In EP5, when Kinzo's "hiding place" was being narrowed down in red, the last statement before the wording switched from "Kinzo" to "a living Kinzo" was "Kinzo does not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's room!"


Quote:
...Actually, that brings up an interesting point. Why does his corpse show up at some times but not at others? It shows up in Ep1, Ep3, and Ep4... what do those games have in common?
Well, only EP2 kills off both Krauss and Natsuhi at the first twilight.


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Originally Posted by Chishio no Hana View Post
however, correct me if I'm wrong..... but last time I checked, both Kanon and Shannon were in the chapel in ep 2. Battler was also in the chapel at that time. That would mean that he saw them together, even if it was stated in those exact words, would it not?
Rosa sent Genji and Shannon to the study (and later claimed to have heard from Kinzo that they never left) before sending anyone to the guesthouse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But its value to the storyline is grossly overrated. I don't think people have even bothered to ask the consequences of such a revelation and whether it actually helps solve anything. I've gone so far as to assume it as true and looked at what results, and I'm honestly not very impressed. It resolves practically nothing of importance, and just raises even more questions whose answers would be far more interesting.
You do have a point. Assuming Shannontrice, it could direct the player's suspicion at her or set up the idea of another personality.


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Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
Then the "Kinzo" everyone saw at the dinning hall who they did not mistake.
Maybe Krauss gave up and brought the coffin downstairs.
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Old 2010-01-20, 18:19   Link #1029
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Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
In EP5, when Kinzo's "hiding place" was being narrowed down in red, the last statement before the wording switched from "Kinzo" to "a living Kinzo" was "Kinzo does not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's room!"
No, the last statement before the switch was from midnight until morning, Kinzo remained in the same room.

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Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
Maybe Krauss gave up and brought the coffin downstairs.
About that, unless the meaning of "existing" is being played with, I think that's impossible.
Everyone at the conference acknowledged the existence of Kinzo.
A corpse that belongs to Kinzo exists.
However, Kinzo does not exist.
In other words, even if Kinzo's corpse was brought down, the existence of the corpse is not the same as the existence of Kinzo.
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Old 2010-01-20, 18:21   Link #1030
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Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
Could you clarify? Do you mean six years ago? I never saw Shannon as being that explicitly cheerful.
No, I meant it in game. Also, I never said she was that cheerful, but nothing we've been shown shows she's been suffering, like 34 said Beatrice has. In fact, we've seen Shannon having a good time in the mansion in general, she's also had a good time with Jessica, and with George. Naturally, R07 could always come up with a twist and say all of that was a lie, and that she's been having a shit life. However, so far, nothing like that has been hinted, even subtly.
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Old 2010-01-20, 18:38   Link #1031
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
No, the last statement before the switch was from midnight until morning, Kinzo remained in the same room.



About that, unless the meaning of "existing" is being played with, I think that's impossible.
Everyone at the conference acknowledged the existence of Kinzo.
A corpse that belongs to Kinzo exists.
However, Kinzo does not exist.
In other words, even if Kinzo's corpse was brought down, the existence of the corpse is not the same as the existence of Kinzo.

Everyone at the conference acknowledged the existence of Kinzo = Everyone acknowledged the new owner of Text!Kinzo.

A corpse that belongs to Kinzo exists. = The corpse that previously had Text!Kinzo.

However, Kinzo does not exist. = Wooohoo finally. That means Human!Kinzo theory is dead. The burnt corpse is just Person X who previously had Text!Kinzo

Omg a theory has been solved!? *Falls Asleep*
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Old 2010-01-20, 19:12   Link #1032
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I believe there's a line in Ep6 that states that the detective's perspective is only objective if they're the one narrating at the time.

Erika never narrates in Ep5, ever, and she certainly isn't narrating the parlor scene.

Ryukishi isn't that great a writer at all. He's good with coming up with overcomplicated mysteries and epic trolls, but his writing has never been that great.
Except if I'm correct, the ONLY time we saw Battler narrate in first-person in the first four episodes was in the second tea party of the fourth episode, right before he battled with Beatrice and was investigating (I remember reading that part and thinking his narration in the first person was interesting). Everything was done in the third-person in the other episodes. Therefore, Battler's viewpoint cannot be taken completely seriously for the first three episodes.
If this actually turns out to be true, we're all wasting our times.
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Old 2010-01-20, 19:48   Link #1033
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But its value to the storyline is grossly overrated. I don't think people have even bothered to ask the consequences of such a revelation and whether it actually helps solve anything. I've gone so far as to assume it as true and looked at what results, and I'm honestly not very impressed. It resolves practically nothing of importance, and just raises even more questions whose answers would be far more interesting.
...I do agree with you here, but I still believe in Shkannon. I think it's pointless not to, at this stage.

Futhermore, I don't see what trick Ryu07 could possibly pull that would explain Ep6's red without resorting to Shkannon. If the implication is that "someone doesn't exist", given the current evidence we have, Shkannon is the only result we can come to. It may not make much sense, but it makes more sense than any other impersonation trick I can think of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
About that, unless the meaning of "existing" is being played with, I think that's impossible.
Everyone at the conference acknowledged the existence of Kinzo.
A corpse that belongs to Kinzo exists.
However, Kinzo does not exist.
In other words, even if Kinzo's corpse was brought down, the existence of the corpse is not the same as the existence of Kinzo.
I think what's happening here is the same trick as with Battler Ushiromiya was born from Asumu Ushiromiya... there has to be two people calling themselves "Kinzo". Beatrice in Ep5 even raised this idea... Natsuhi, seeing herself as the next head, could be calling herself "Kinzo".

...Actually... was Battler with the cousins the whole time during Ep4's family conference?

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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
No, I meant it in game. Also, I never said she was that cheerful, but nothing we've been shown shows she's been suffering, like 34 said Beatrice has. In fact, we've seen Shannon having a good time in the mansion in general, she's also had a good time with Jessica, and with George. Naturally, R07 could always come up with a twist and say all of that was a lie, and that she's been having a shit life. However, so far, nothing like that has been hinted, even subtly.
...Hmm, well. Lambda says that Beatrice was in a pitiful state when she found her. I think here she means Meta-Beatrice, as the collation of all the Beatrices on Rokkenjima. This would include Shannon's personified love for Battler.

Since Battler isn't around, I can see her suffering rather a lot.

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Except if I'm correct, the ONLY time we saw Battler narrate in first-person in the first four episodes was in the second tea party of the fourth episode, right before he battled with Beatrice and was investigating (I remember reading that part and thinking his narration in the first person was interesting). Everything was done in the third-person in the other episodes. Therefore, Battler's viewpoint cannot be taken completely seriously for the first three episodes.
If this actually turns out to be true, we're all wasting our times.
...?

Battler's first-person narration, while not ever-present, has been around since the very beginning of Ep1. In fact, most of Ep1 is seen through his eyes.
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Old 2010-01-20, 20:51   Link #1034
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...I do agree with you here, but I still believe in Shkannon. I think it's pointless not to, at this stage.
Again, my main problem is, what does this add to Shannontrice? If we believe that one is true, anyway. Likewise, what does it add to Shannon as culprit? These are three separate things, but the difference here is, two of them stand on their own.

Shannontrice doesn't require her to be the killer, and it doesn't require her to be Kanon, but it still makes sense if she's the girl who waited for Battler or something. She also has a lot of the opportunity for pranks and magic circles and whatnot. It stands on its own.

Shannon as culprit is similar. She has opportunity to kill people. She has some associations with people who might be shady. If Kanon isn't Shannon, she could have him as an accomplice. Stands on its own about as well as any other plausible culprit theory.

Shkanon... gives us what by itself, exactly? There's no rhyme or reason to it. Even if you insist I must believe in it, why precisely should I give a hoot about it when it has no relevance unto itself? Woo-wee, so two people are one person. And I ask immediately... so what? What does that mean? What does that give us except two answers, one of which was a question raised in ep6? It doesn't stand on its own. It's just there, and we don't really know why any more now than we did when people were theorizing it before. That was always one of the biggest criticisms of it then; why? It's still true now.

But what really damns it in my mind is that it doesn't help when combined with the other theories either.

It doesn't seem to help Shannontrice at all. So Shannon is Beatrice. Okay. She's also Kanon (or vice-versa). ...so? That doesn't give me any clearer picture of why she's Beatrice. And now I have to ask why she's also Kanon. It's a mess.

And with Shannon as culprit, it doesn't help either. Okay, you say, she has two identities. Great? She can still only be one of them at a time. She can put suspicion on Kanon and make him vanish, or fake Shannon's death, but she still has to deal with acting on her own. Her imaginary friend or split personality can't kill for her. And whenever she's unaccounted for, so is Kanon, so it doesn't help establish an alibi. If anything, Shkanon just makes her job harder if she's the killer. Not only does she have to kill people, now she has to pose as two distinct individuals for the survivors, establish an alibi for each, and pose as the other when one of them is "killed" instead of just faking a single death with a single identity and moving about entirely unexpected. It's counterproductive.

So... why should I care if Shkanon is true? What does it add to the narrative? What does it add to the mysteries? What does it add to other Shannon-centric theories? Why is it a necessary condition to believing one of the other theories anyway? And if it isn't, why is it in the story at all?
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Old 2010-01-20, 22:13   Link #1035
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...Actually, I'd like to retract my previous statement about Shkannon being the only way for someone not actually existing to be presented.

What I always found somewhat strange about Umineko is how the narration constantly jumps between first and third-person. It seemed pointless... except now we know that only the detective's narration is truly objective.

If, say, there was a person that's only ever talked about in third-person narration and never in Battler's first, then, well... that person might well not even exist at all.

This is far more subtle and brilliant than Shkannon... now, if only we could figure out who that person might be and if there even is a person that exists only in third-person narration.
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Old 2010-01-20, 22:18   Link #1036
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...Actually, I'd like to retract my previous statement about Shkannon being the only way for someone not actually existing to be presented.

What I always found somewhat strange about Umineko is how the narration constantly jumps between first and third-person. It seemed pointless... except now we know that only the detective's narration is truly objective.

If, say, there was a person that's only ever talked about in third-person narration and never in Battler's first, then, well... that person might well not even exist at all.

This is far more subtle and brilliant than Shkannon... now, if only we could figure out who that person might be and if there even is a person that exists only in third-person narration.
I don't want to believe this just because it would be an incredibly filthy trick. That said, I am curious to see if anyone (besides Kinzo of course) is never actually seen in Battler's first-person narration. I suppose you could get a checklist of everybody and tick them off as Battler sees them in first person. Of course, this wouldn't prove or disprove an impersonator theory like Shkanon, because Battler can see both of the people as long as he never sees them at the same time.
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Old 2010-01-20, 22:23   Link #1037
Kaisos Erranon
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I don't want to believe this just because it would be an incredibly filthy trick.
Well, Ryukishi DID mention a certain 'venomous trick' that was supposed to appear in Ep3 that later appeared in Ep5... I did look for something while playing, but...

Could be related to this concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That said, I am curious to see if anyone (besides Kinzo of course) is never actually seen in Battler's first-person narration. I suppose you could get a checklist of everybody and tick them off as Battler sees them in first person. Of course, this wouldn't prove or disprove an impersonator theory like Shkanon, because Battler can see both of the people as long as he never sees them at the same time.
Even so, I've been thinking back and I can't recall a single individual that isn't introduced in first-person, but... I do recall Battler's first meeting with Maria being partially in third-person, which always struck me as odd.

And yes, an(other) impersonator is very much possible with this theory. ...I'm going to have to play Ep1 again.
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Old 2010-01-20, 22:27   Link #1038
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Has anyone thought up the idea of Skhanon being One person split into two people?
Renall is pretty much saying Split personalty is pointless because it will just be more of a disadvantage than anything else.

Another thing is when you solve the riddle and become Shannontrice do you turn !Meta then leave the game board.
Do you turn !Meta while leaving behind a piece-version as you non the wiser?
Or is Piece!Shannon and Meta!Shannon the same person for that Ep until she World Hops?
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Old 2010-01-20, 22:44   Link #1039
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
*snip*
Shouldn't matter for the person count.

In any case, I just went over a bit of Ep1, and unfortunately I think everyone is introduced in first-person. Tch.

Well, I have yet to find evidence that Kanon or Shannon isn't pretending to be Kumasawa, but that has the exact same problems as the Shkannon theory.
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Old 2010-01-21, 01:05   Link #1040
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...Hmm, well. Lambda says that Beatrice was in a pitiful state when she found her. I think here she means Meta-Beatrice, as the collation of all the Beatrices on Rokkenjima. This would include Shannon's personified love for Battler.

Since Battler isn't around, I can see her suffering rather a lot.
No mate, go re-read EP3's Tea Party. 34 was talking about Beatrice before she became a witch. She was talking about her as a human. Here's the text:

"......That's why, in exchange for letting me borrow that, I made you a witch. .........If I stop being your guardian, you'll immediately go back to being a human. ...Make sure you don't forget that, no matter how much incredible magical power you hold, ......you are nothing more than a temporary witch."

(...)

"............Because originally, you weren't even a witch, and at any time, I'll remind you what a truly shabby creature you were. ............If you betray my expectations. At that time, you can look forward to a fun, fun punishment game.

In the world of billions of kakera, ......I'll send you into the most miserable kakera and seal you there. .........You were miserable in the first place, so it'll really be worth choosing a miserable kakera."
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