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Old 2010-01-21, 01:15   Link #1041
Kaisos Erranon
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Hmm. Well then, I'll next say that Shannon was rather miserable up until she smashed the mirror and received her miracle.

...Wait. I think I might have something there.
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Old 2010-01-21, 01:25   Link #1042
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Hmm. Well then, I'll next say that Shannon was rather miserable up until she smashed the mirror and received her miracle.

...Wait. I think I might have something there.
Dont tell me you are trying to say that the mirror symbolizes some kind of Kakera other than a anti magic shiel......
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Old 2010-01-21, 01:29   Link #1043
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Dont tell me you are trying to say that the mirror symbolizes some kind of Kakera other than a anti magic shiel......
It was supposed to be sealing away the power of the Legend of the Witch (by accident), right?

Well, some person (Who I believe to be Shannon) at some point before the events in 1986 created an existence designed specifically to embody her love for Battler, and named it 'Beatrice'. Something like that.

...Why couldn't the breaking of the mirror and the unsealing of the Witch also have been the moment of the above existence's birth?
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Old 2010-01-21, 01:42   Link #1044
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Hmm. Well then, I'll next say that Shannon was rather miserable up until she smashed the mirror and received her miracle.
The problem is that there's nothing hinting that much, not even in a subtle level. I don't think not being able to accept George's feelings was what 34 was talking about when she said Beatrice used to be miserable.

Also, you've got to remember Beatrice was born 6 years ago (as 6 years = 1000 years in the Meta), and the Shannon broke that mirror 1-2 years ago. That, and chances are quite likely the human Beatrice is 19 years old by 1986, whilst Shannon is 16. I'll admit, though, the possibility of Shannon being older has been hinted, when Jessica and George said 6 years ago she had an older-sister type of behaviour, but that's all there is to it.
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Old 2010-01-21, 02:01   Link #1045
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The problem is that there's nothing hinting that much, not even in a subtle level. I don't think not being able to accept George's feelings was what 34 was talking about when she said Beatrice used to be miserable.
She was treated like dirt and raised to believe she was subhuman. I think that qualifies as 'miserable'.

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Also, you've got to remember Beatrice was born 6 years ago (as 6 years = 1000 years in the Meta), and the Shannon broke that mirror 1-2 years ago. That, and chances are quite likely the human Beatrice is 19 years old by 1986, whilst Shannon is 16. I'll admit, though, the possibility of Shannon being older has been hinted, when Jessica and George said 6 years ago she had an older-sister type of behaviour, but that's all there is to it.
Well, what says the mirror wasn't broken six years ago? (That's a terrible defense, though. I apologize.)

In any case, there's no one on the island that's -officially- 19 or close to 19 aside from Jessica, and Beatrice certainly isn't Jessica. The only other girl who's close in age is Shannon.

Just wondering, who do you think it is?
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Old 2010-01-21, 02:24   Link #1046
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She was treated like dirt and raised to believe she was subhuman. I think that qualifies as 'miserable'.
Wait, wait, wait... when was she treated like dirt? Sure, there's the whole furniture deal, but she's never been treated like dirt. Honestly mate, show me one scene, just one scene which may hint she's been miserable. Seriously, almost every single time I've made an argument, I've pointed out scenes. Now, I'll ask the same of you. All I ask is one scene, and I swear I'll give you this argument.

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Just wondering, who do you think it is?
Honestly, I've got no idea. (Sure "Used Can, you fag, you don't even have a theory, yet you come here and tell us our theories are wrong." I'm sorry. ) All I know is, given the amount of info we've got, we cannot conclude Beatrice is Shannon or Jessica, but au contraire, we've got information that simply conflicts with those possibilities. Jessica was basically flat out denied in EP6, and Shannon is basically chosen by process of elimination, yet the info we get about her simply doesn't match what we've got about Beatrice.

Mind you, I'm not saying Beatrice being Shannon is impossible, for all we know, R07 may give us some piece of info in the remaining episodes that will make us see some past scenes on a completely different light and realise that Shannon was actually miserable, but as of now, I don't think we can do that (well, or maybe just me, and there's some other people who can, but I'm yet to meet anyone who can), and Umineko is supposedly solvable by EP4.
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Old 2010-01-21, 02:27   Link #1047
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I'd also appreciate it if someone explained to me why I'm crazy on some of the points I raised. You know, explain the relevance of Shkanon if it is true.
Just wanted to support Renall's righteous denial of the Shkanon theory and praise his excellent reasoning and fine writing.

Even after what I've heard of Ep6 spoilers, Shkanon still looks totally silly and anticlimatic, partly for the reasons Renall has pointed out, but mostly because after the huge build-up that the question arks were, I'd expect something more ingenious from R07 as the reveal.

We are still hoping for a mystery masterpiece here, for chrissakes, and Shkanon just doesn't cut it as masterpiece material.

To provide an example of what I'd consider (if only barely) tolerable, I guess I could live with Kasumi=Kyrie (I still think there's gotta be a reason for too much Kasumi in ep4, could well be a foreshadowing) or with Shkanontrice as Battler's love interest (but NOT, at the same time, the mastermind), although in the latter case Shkanon would still be unnecessary as Renall already said.
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Old 2010-01-21, 02:30   Link #1048
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Wait, wait, wait... when was she treated like dirt? Sure, there's the whole furniture deal, but she's never been treated like dirt. Honestly mate, show me one scene, just one scene which may hint she's been miserable. Seriously, almost every single time I've made an argument, I've pointed out scenes. Now, I'll ask the same of you. All I ask is one scene, and I swear I'll give you this argument.
Natsuhi treats her like trash. Remember early on in Ep2? Natsuhi has a tendency to take out her frustrations on slow and clumsy servants. Kanon suggests that this happens all the time.

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Honestly, I've got no idea. (Sure "Used Can, you fag, you don't even have a theory, yet you come here and tell us our theories are wrong." I'm sorry. ) All I know is, given the amount of info we've got, we cannot conclude Beatrice is Shannon or Jessica, but au contraire, we've got information that simply conflicts with those possibilities. Jessica was basically flat out denied in EP6, and Shannon is basically chosen by process of elimination, yet the info we get about her simply doesn't match what we've got about Beatrice.
Well, think about it like this: If the only person Beatrice CAN be is Shannon, then instead of pointing out contradictory facts, we should examine WHY these facts seem contradictory.

We do know that the third-person narration is in the habit of lying to us...

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Even after what I've heard of Ep6 spoilers, Shkanon still looks totally silly and anticlimatic, partly for the reasons Renall has pointed out, but mostly because after the huge build-up that the question arks were, I'd expect something more ingenious from R07 as the reveal.

We are still hoping for a mystery masterpiece here, for chrissakes, and Shkanon just doesn't cut it as masterpiece material.
Don't expect a masterpiece. Expect Ryukishi to let you down. That's the only advice I can give. This way, if he actually manages to pull something good, you can be pleasantly surprised. Or, when he doesn't, you can join me in saying that you knew it all along.

Umineko has been declining in quality the more complicated and silly the story (especially the meta-story... A Witches' Senate that employs Witch Hunters? The entire story is being written by a heretofore unknown character who looks too much like Hanyuu? Mass marriages? Really?) gets.

I long for the days of Ep1-3 when the gameboard had more focus and it actually felt like a mystery at times rather than just a deconstruction of one...
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Old 2010-01-21, 02:40   Link #1049
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Yah this is going no where mates. All of these pieces fail to connect, the only person i really see making Shannon miserable is Eva taking out her frustrations on the Maid for the lulz. Natsuhi may take afew jabs at Shannon but not to the extent that Shannon starts brewing inner hatred for the family. Natsuhi's not that tatty.

And before you guys start hollering the Shannon = Beato Bandwagon, They have shown clear cut evidence that Beato was once a human, meaning Piece!Shannon and Piece!Beato practically existed side by side when Beato attained Beatrice.
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Old 2010-01-21, 02:50   Link #1050
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Natsuhi treats her like trash. Remember early on in Ep2? Natsuhi has a tendency to take out her frustrations on slow and clumsy servants.
Natsuhi treats her poorly, that's true, but she's no Cinderella step-mother for Shannon. We've been shown scenes in which they've been in good terms, like in EP5. Also, saying Natsuhi treats her like trash is a bit too much.

Once again, I don't think any of these things show her being miserable. Honestly, if you can be miserable that way, then I'm miserable too, because my boss is a dick.

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Well, think about it like this: If the only person Beatrice CAN be is Shannon, then instead of pointing out contradictory facts, we should examine WHY these facts seem contradictory.

We do know that the third-person narration is in the habit of lying to us...
Yes, but sadly, for Shannon, most of the text we've got is white, and barely any of it involves Battler. That, and red text or Battler's POV barely does anything to help this theory.

Also, as for contradictory facts. First, Shannon loves George. R07 confirmed that much. Now, this doesn't cancel the possibility she also loves Battler. However, this game itself shows different. Whoever laid out this game doesn't seem to care much about George, as the only time he's "survived" is EP1, whereas Battler has always survived, except in EP3 where Eva killed him. We know this whole thing has been planned beforehand, because of the bottle letters, and the letters with keys for the bank accounts. Not only that, the main purpose of this game is to have Battler realise something. Why would that be a big deal if she's in love with George now? George has been basically been a pawn in this game, so that Battler remembers something. Sure, there's the possibility of DID, but there's also many contradictions with that, which we've already discussed a lot.
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Old 2010-01-21, 02:57   Link #1051
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Don't expect a masterpiece. Expect Ryukishi to let you down. That's the only advice I can give. This way, if he actually manages to pull something good, you can be pleasantly surprised. Or, when he doesn't, you can join me in saying that you knew it all along.


That has been my attitude to anything in life since I was, what, 3 years old?

And of course I ‘m ready to be betrayed (“without love…”, but you know the drill).


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I long for the days of Ep1-3 when the gameboard had more focus and it actually felt like a mystery at times rather than just a deconstruction of one...

On the contrary, that deconstruction part is what, to me, makes R07’s works unique and it seems he’s getting better at it as he goes (but let’s wait until Ep8 comes out).


Spoiler for Off-topic:
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:03   Link #1052
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That said, I do wish we'd at least get another finished game for once. I know he says if we know the answer we can already figure out what happens, but I'd still like to see it play all the way out to the end again at least once! Or at least get past the first and secondish twilights...

And no, I'm not expecting a masterpiece. But I'm hoping this doesn't turn up lame on the home stretch. I'd feel particularly betrayed if all the "answers" are silly mental disorders and gross overreactions and poorly-motivated killings of people because they were there. As long as I can kinda accept the mastermind/primary culprit, I'll be cool with the mystery side of the board. I just take all the meta-stuff to be humorous, more or less, so I'm not seriously thinking about some kind of witch senate or anything as any more than a joke.
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:05   Link #1053
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Sigh ...I realize that the pieces don't really fit, but... there's seriously no one else on the island Beatrice can be other than Shannon, unless Beatrice is a person we haven't even met... which both means that she isn't on the island during the game and that this mystery sucks.

...The big problem with Umineko is that motive is unsolvable. No, I don't care what Knox 8 and Ryukishi and Ep5 say, motive in Umineko is unsolvable. We're simply not given enough information to come to a reasonable theory as to WHY the murders are occurring to begin with. We'd have to be psychics to figure it out.

This is why I believe that Shannon is Beatrice... because it's the only answer that makes any sense given (semi-)objective fact, that is, the process of elimination.

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On the contrary, that deconstruction part is what, to me, makes R07’s works unique and it seems he’s getting better at it as he goes.
...Ep1 is still the best game for me as it has actual suspense and a WTF IS GOING ON factor that latter games have lacked, whether due to magic scenes or Knox abuse.

And Poirot is way better written than this. Not that I don't enjoy Umineko, mind, it's just that with the advent of the core (which is Pretentious for "answer") arcs especially are beginning to ruin it for me the more stupidly complicated things become.
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:13   Link #1054
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Sigh ...I realize that the pieces don't really fit, but... there's seriously no one else on the island Beatrice can be other than Shannon, unless Beatrice is a person we haven't even met... which both means that she isn't on the island during the game and that this mystery sucks.

...The big problem with Umineko is that motive is unsolvable. No, I don't care what Knox 8 and Ryukishi and Ep5 say, motive in Umineko is unsolvable. We're simply not given enough information to come to a reasonable theory as to WHY the murders are occurring to begin with. We'd have to be psychics to figure it out.

This is why I believe that Shannon is Beatrice... because it's the only answer that makes any sense given (semi-)objective fact, that is, the process of elimination.
Unfortunately, even if we do accept Shannon is Beatrice... it still doesn't help us with motive. That's kind of the frustrating thing. Everybody's turning up dead, and we're either left to conclude there's one or two people who really want everybody dead, or a whole lot of people with complicated rules on who they're planning to kill. Either way is nearly impossible to figure out from the information given. I've created, and seen, unified theories that work, or at least make some sense, but I can't help but think none will turn out to be the answer.
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:16   Link #1055
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Sigh ...I realize that the pieces don't really fit, but... there's seriously no one else on the island Beatrice can be other than Shannon, unless Beatrice is a person we haven't even met... which both means that she isn't on the island during the game and that this mystery sucks.

This is why I believe that Shannon is Beatrice... because it's the only answer that makes any sense given (semi-)objective fact, that is, the process of elimination.
Soooo Are you saying the episode where Rosa stumbled upon a hidden cottage outside of the mansion.. found Piece!Beatrice.. helped her escape where Piece!Beatrice tripped. fell. then turned into Meta!Beatrice looking down on her dead Piece!Beatrice corpse was just one massive troll?
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:17   Link #1056
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I'm not expecting a masterpiece either. Hell, this is not aimed at geniuses of the mystery genre (not that I'm even remotely close to being one of them), but to anime/manga fans. I just want an ending that is not that bad. I want a good culprit. I don't care if it's an obvious person, as long as it fits the image of a good culprit.

As for the Meta-World, I take it at face value, as it has no relevance whatsoever with the mystery. So, I can just have fun while reading what happens there. In fact, the Meta-World and Fantasy characters are what I've liked the most.

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We'd have to be psychics to figure it out.
But we are! We can read their thoughts.

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Soooo Are you saying the episode where Rosa stumbled upon a hidden cottage outside of the mansion.. found Piece!Beatrice.. helped her escape where Piece!Beatrice tripped. fell. then turned into Meta!Beatrice looking down on her dead Piece!Beatrice corpse was just one massive troll?
Well, that Beatrice is dead.
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:18   Link #1057
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I know he says if we know the answer we can already figure out what happens
It's when he says things like this that I think not even Ryukishi knows what the answer is. Although, if that assertion is true, I'm really looking forward to the reveal of why we can always figure out the death order.

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As long as I can kinda accept the mastermind/primary culprit, I'll be cool with the mystery side of the board.
I read once that Ryukishi was inspired by Cross+Channel when writing Umineko. (Given the sheer amount of dirty narrative tricks C+C pulls, I'm not surprised.) The reveal of the murderer in one of the game's 'weeks' was about the most shocking and WTF moment in the entire story.

If Umineko's reveal is anything like that, it will all have been worth it.

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Unfortunately, even if we do accept Shannon is Beatrice... it still doesn't help us with motive.
That's what I'm saying. Unsolvable.
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:22   Link #1058
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That's what I'm saying. Unsolvable.
I just wish I knew if he was actually expecting people to be able to solve it, or if it has been solved and it was just such an "easy" answer we all ignored it because there was nothing more to say on it. But as I said before ep5 came out, I don't really buy that it's that solvable right now. He might think it is, but I've really got my doubts right now.
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:26   Link #1059
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Soooo Are you saying the episode where Rosa stumbled upon a hidden cottage outside of the mansion.. found Piece!Beatrice.. helped her escape where Piece!Beatrice tripped. fell. then turned into Meta!Beatrice looking down on her dead Piece!Beatrice corpse was just one massive troll?
Hell, I don't even think any of that happened to begin with. All we're given in red is that someone named Beatrice used to live in Kuwadorian, was often visited and raped by Kinzo, and died in 1967. That doesn't mean that Rosa met her, that she escaped from the mansion, or that she fell off a cliff.

Also, that's a different Piece-Beatrice than the one who is 19 years old in 1986 to begin with.

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I'm not expecting a masterpiece either. Hell, this is not aimed at geniuses of the mystery genre (not that I'm even remotely close to being one of them), but to anime/manga fans. I just want an ending that is not that bad. I want a good culprit. I don't care if it's an obvious person, as long as it fits the image of a good culprit.
But it practically labels itself as a super-mystery. Look how overcomplicated it is. It's begging so hard to be treated as a masterpiece.

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As for the Meta-World, I take it at face value, as it has no relevance whatsoever with the mystery. So, I can just have fun while reading what happens there. In fact, the Meta-World and Fantasy characters are what I've liked the most.
...I like the Witches, but not the furniture, generally. And since the Meta-World keeps overtaking the gameboard more and more each episode, it's sort of taking away from the mystery.

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I just wish I knew if he was actually expecting people to be able to solve it, or if it has been solved and it was just such an "easy" answer we all ignored it because there was nothing more to say on it. But as I said before ep5 came out, I don't really buy that it's that solvable right now. He might think it is, but I've really got my doubts right now.
Well, he does have Dlanor say this in Ep5, that it might be a lot easier for the writer to solve than the reader.

I do think that you can solve the game without relying on motive, though. It just won't be the elegant solution Umineko is supposed to have, apparently.
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:26   Link #1060
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I'm not expecting a masterpiece either. Hell, this is not aimed at geniuses of the mystery genre (not that I'm even remotely close to being one of them), but to anime/manga fans. I just want an ending that is not that bad. I want a good culprit. I don't care if it's an obvious person, as long as it fits the image of a good culprit.

As for the Meta-World, I take it at face value, as it has no relevance whatsoever with the mystery. So, I can just have fun while reading what happens there. In fact, the Meta-World and Fantasy characters are what I've liked the most.


But we are! We can read their thoughts.


Well, that Beatrice is dead.
Thats the beauty of it. She is DEAD. You can walk up to the mansion. go and check on her tombstone. ALONGSIDE WITH SHANNON SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO YOU EATING CRUMPETS! *Breathes*
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