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Old 2010-01-23, 18:47   Link #781
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i would agree with you had Lelouch went the noble path and created world peace through GOOD means
THEN it woudl feel like the universe was screwing him over despite him not deserving it
but he didn't go down that path
he instead went down the dark path he had ALWAYS went down, and tried to create world peace through murder, hate and deception
and so i dont really feel bad for complicating it along the way
Or rather, he went down the darkest path possible as an excuse to die and achieve world peace, as he had lost his will to live, and clearly, the last of his sanity.
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Old 2010-01-23, 18:50   Link #782
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
But Code Geass as a whole was epic, not just Lelouch's death.
Now, your villains sound interesting - if you turned that into a fanfic, I'd totally read it. But the staff seemed pretty much finished with Zero Requiem, and personally, I'd like to leave it as it is. Either that, or they really bring back Lelouch while they're at it, but that would irk me for other reasons.
the story itself would be plenty epic
lots of battles and lots of drama
dont worry
as for fanfic, like i said, i dont have time to write one
but i can give you cliff notes


Quote:
Suzaku goes up against super awesome people who hate him with a passion? Well, I wish him fun.
guess he'll need help then
the dynamic of having "zero" work with people "zero" has always worked with is going to be half the fun

Quote:
At the very least, it would miss the "human interaction" element for me. They'd all have their reasons, but at least one side could never try to understand the other, because they already know and don't care. One of the things I liked most in Code Geass was that half the characters trying to kill each other could all just have gotten along if you twisted the circumstances or had them sit down and talk it out.
not all that lacking either
you completely misunderstand
this isn't "know and dont care", this is "own up to your crimes"
this is "what makes you think a man with an eight digit death toll has the right to tell the world how to act"
a large part of the drama comes from the fact that the "villains" are completely and absolutely 100% right in their demands, and suzaku having to DEAL with this knowledge

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Or rather, he went down the darkest path possible as an excuse to die and achieve world peace, as he had lost his will to live, and clearly, the last of his sanity.
all the same
suzaku is still alive, and agreed to this plan
hence, i have no problems making him sweat blood trying to actually make it workout in the end

after all, whats the "punishment" in being the most beloved and admired person on the planet, if you dont have to actually DO anything complicated ?
the whole "he who wears the mask must be willing to carry the world on his shoulders" doesn't really apply now
the war is over, the world is free, and zero is the most beloved and celebrated hero in the history of mankind, so i hardly see the "punishment" in it
and i dont really think Lelouch and suzaku went to all the trouble of making zero the hero of the world, just so he can be Nunnaly's butler
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Old 2010-01-23, 19:07   Link #783
stardrago
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If this new anime is going to be a remake I wonder what changes it will have, like maybe having Rolo as an adoptive step-brother for Lelouch and Nunally like what was plan during the beginning of the scripts
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Old 2010-01-23, 19:22   Link #784
azul120
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the story itself would be plenty epic
lots of battles and lots of drama
dont worry
as for fanfic, like i said, i dont have time to write one
but i can give you cliff notes



guess he'll need help then
the dynamic of having "zero" work with people "zero" has always worked with is going to be half the fun


not all that lacking either
you completely misunderstand
this isn't "know and dont care", this is "own up to your crimes"
this is "what makes you think a man with an eight digit death toll has the right to tell the world how to act"
a large part of the drama comes from the fact that the "villains" are completely and absolutely 100% right in their demands, and suzaku having to DEAL with this knowledge


all the same
suzaku is still alive, and agreed to this plan
hence, i have no problems making him sweat blood trying to actually make it workout in the end

after all, whats the "punishment" in being the most beloved and admired person on the planet, if you dont have to actually DO anything complicated ?
the whole "he who wears the mask must be willing to carry the world on his shoulders" doesn't really apply now
the war is over, the world is free, and zero is the most beloved and celebrated hero in the history of mankind, so i hardly see the "punishment" in it
and i dont really think Lelouch and suzaku went to all the trouble of making zero the hero of the world, just so he can be Nunnaly's butler
I guess Suzaku's punishment is that he's living a lie, not to mention the mask that which he saw as his mortal enemy.

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Originally Posted by Laurcus
I like the idea that Blade has, and the moral dillema it creates, but I also think it's missing something. If they were going to make a serious sequel to CG R2 then I would like a new villain. Not just some run of the mill bad guy either. I'm talking about someone that could play the same type of roll as Sephiroth or Aizen. Someone that when you first see him you think, oh wow what a badass.
Aizen yes, Sephiroth no.
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Old 2010-01-23, 22:26   Link #785
Badkarma 1
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Nogitsune;I think what your trying to say is "Ignorance is bliss"correct?
Well there in lies the problem! What Blade is trying to get across to everyone is that the Requiem is a work in progress and while war is pretty simple( kill,maim,destroy as many of "the enemy" as possible as well as destroylng their ability to fight),peace on the other hand is HARD! Yes you can maintain peace through force of arms but that is not freedom that is a military state or martial law like "Do as we say and the secret police won't come and take you away for reeducation". No they ( the OOBK,Nunally,or 'Zero')can't do that as that would be to much like the old Britainia. People for the most part would return to their old lives and daily routine, then one day a pirated radio or tv broadcast comes on during the regular news cast a figure dressed in an old Brit soliders uniform or a former noble says "Zero is a lie the, Requiem is a lie! We the veterans of the war of the Rebellion will show you the truth"! Now the powers that be and know the truth all collectively s**t themselves because what if someone beyond their influence DOES know the truth about Zero?!
In the end I say this:The TRUTH shall set you free! And until the Requiem and Zero is brought into 'The Light' it is all a LIE!
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Old 2010-01-24, 05:16   Link #786
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Badkarma 1 View Post
Nogitsune;I think what your trying to say is "Ignorance is bliss"correct?
Well there in lies the problem! What Blade is trying to get across to everyone is that the Requiem is a work in progress and while war is pretty simple( kill,maim,destroy as many of "the enemy" as possible as well as destroylng their ability to fight),peace on the other hand is HARD! Yes you can maintain peace through force of arms but that is not freedom that is a military state or martial law like "Do as we say and the secret police won't come and take you away for reeducation". No they ( the OOBK,Nunally,or 'Zero')can't do that as that would be to much like the old Britainia. People for the most part would return to their old lives and daily routine, then one day a pirated radio or tv broadcast comes on during the regular news cast a figure dressed in an old Brit soliders uniform or a former noble says "Zero is a lie the, Requiem is a lie! We the veterans of the war of the Rebellion will show you the truth"! Now the powers that be and know the truth all collectively s**t themselves because what if someone beyond their influence DOES know the truth about Zero?!
In the end I say this:The TRUTH shall set you free! And until the Requiem and Zero is brought into 'The Light' it is all a LIE!
actually, this is not quite what i had in mind
they dont just come out on TV and declare it like that
the whole thing starts with a VERY big bang (a massive attack on tokyo) and the fact of WHY they did it isn't revealed until half way through the plot
the bad guy, makes it a POINT to keep their motives in the dark until he can get suzaku personally involved in the battle, because he wants to apply as much psychological warfare as possible against suzaku in an effort to break him mentally

Spoiler for plot:

so you see
there IS going to be lots of action, and lots of drama
but, just like R2, half way through the plot, the characters aren't going to have much to smile about.
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Old 2010-01-24, 10:32   Link #787
Nogitsune
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The truth is overrated. R2 agrees with me.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the bad guy, makes it a POINT to keep their motives in the dark until he can get suzaku personally involved in the battle, because he wants to apply as much psychological warfare as possible against suzaku in an effort to break him mentally
And how does he know that Suzaku will even care?
Besides, Suzaku is "dead". He can not act as anything but Zero - otherwise, it would take away part of what made Zero Requiem Zero Requiem.

And then he is supposed to realize that he and his best friend whose sacrifice he and some other people honoured until then might have been the real bad guys?
Gah, whatever. I should stay out of these kind of things. I'm as certain as I can be that the staff will not make a sequel like that, and that they'd sooner bring Lelouch back from the dead. Okouchi seems to think Zero Requiem was totally awesome, and the more I see it getting portrayed as the Epitome of Evil, the more I agree with him. Call it reversed fangirl psychology.
So...
*sneaks out of the thread and tries really hard not to look back*
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Old 2010-01-24, 11:36   Link #788
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Well to be honest Nogi, I do agree with you that Okouchi would NEVER make a sequel like that. And if I was writing a sequel I wouldn't know how to make code geass without Lelouch. I would have a couple of problems doing it like that.

1. Yes I would want the story to be morally grey, but not to the point of making Suzaku and company the "bad guys".

2. I would want the story to have an incredibly badass villain, so much so that Suzaku wouldn't have a chance in hell of beating him. That presents the problem of how does this villain get beaten? They would NEED Lelouch for that, hence why I said that I personally wouldn't be able to write a sequel without Lelouch.

Sorry if I helped contribute to pushing you out of the thread Nogi.
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Old 2010-01-24, 12:02   Link #789
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*sneaks back in, because she's just that bad with resolutions - but so is Clovis, so that's all right!*

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Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
Well to be honest Nogi, I do agree with you that Okouchi would NEVER make a sequel like that. And if I was writing a sequel I wouldn't know how to make code geass without Lelouch. I would have a couple of problems doing it like that.

1. Yes I would want the story to be morally grey, but not to the point of making Suzaku and company the "bad guys".

2. I would want the story to have an incredibly badass villain, so much so that Suzaku wouldn't have a chance in hell of beating him. That presents the problem of how does this villain get beaten? They would NEED Lelouch for that, hence why I said that I personally wouldn't be able to write a sequel without Lelouch.
Exactly!
These are two of my main problems.

Quote:
Sorry if I helped contribute to pushing you out of the thread Nogi.
Ah, no! Not at all!
It's just that the topic is evil. It's my own fault for entering a discussion I know will make me unhappy. R2 and Zero Requiem have been bashed so often that it all just really irks me.
I love Code Geass, and I like the second season. It's not perfect, but I don't need a re-make, or a sequel that bites Lelouch in the behind after R2 pretty much portrayed him as omniscient and, most importantly, completely justified.
So really, the only thing chasing me out of this thread is the general topic, certainly not anyone in particular.
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Old 2010-01-24, 12:08   Link #790
bladeofdarkness
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its not about making suzaku the "bad guy"
he isn't really a bad guy
but the main villain makes it a point to tell him, at every turn, that he is
pointing out that he is just a liar
that he's a mass murderer
that he has no right to try and claim a moral high ground in anything
that the villain can murder a 1000 people every day for the rest of his life, and still not come close to suzaku's death toll even if he lives to be a hundred
a Hannibal lecture at every turn, in an effort to break suzaku mentally, in order to make breaking him physically, much easier
a wise villain doesn't attack the body until the will is broken (even Bane knew that)

part of the "fun" would be seeing suzaku have to be play "the hero", against a villain who knows that he isn't one
having to come to terms with this, and having to actually BECOME a hero, rather then simply playing the part of the villain with very good publicity (which is what he is now)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I love Code Geass, and I like the second season. It's not perfect, but I don't need a re-make, or a sequel that bites Lelouch in the behind after R2 pretty much portrayed him as omniscient and, most importantly, completely justified.
So really, the only thing chasing me out of this thread is the general topic, certainly not anyone in particular.
wait...
what ?
when was his actions portrayed as justified in any way
well meaning, yes
but justified ?
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Old 2010-01-24, 12:23   Link #791
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wait...
what ?
when was his actions portrayed as justified in any way
well meaning, yes
but justified ?
Well, maybe "not not justified" would be the more adequate way of putting it.
Zero Requiem was a success. Everyone is happy. Okouchi himself called Lelouch a modern hero.
He did some shitty things, that much got across. But if you just look at the ending, you can easily believe that it was all totally worth it.

So yes, I think the staff pretty much glorified the whole thing.
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Old 2010-01-24, 12:27   Link #792
bladeofdarkness
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like i said, zero-requiems FIRST step was a success
who's to say there wouldn't be hickups along the way to the final phase

P.S
shnizel and charles were ALSO not shown as "not not justifed"
not like their ways were implemented, and then failed
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Old 2010-01-24, 12:33   Link #793
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like i said, zero-requiems FIRST step was a success
who's to say there wouldn't be hickups along the way to the final phase
Lelouch. He is omniscient, after all.
Echem. Well, I suppose they could tell us he and Suzaku discussed these things and totally saw it coming, but then the villain couldn't be all that badass, as that would make Lelouch seem completely nuts if he had other options and didn't pick them because "they didn't feel right", leaving Suzaku to fend of a giant threat to world peace.

And to be honest, I don't see any appeal in a sequel taking place right after Lelouch's death. It could never live up to the first two seasons, because everyone would feel that something - Lelouch, to be exact - is missing.
As I said, they might as well bring him back in such a case, which would be kind of... well, random.

Edit:
Actually, Charles and Schneizel were portrayed as "not justified" by having Lelouch beat them the way he did - especially Charles.
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Old 2010-01-24, 12:42   Link #794
bladeofdarkness
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who says Lelouch is omniscient
he didn't see nunnaly being alive, or xing-ke sinking his boat or, kallen almost squashing him
he isn't omniscient, he's just good at predicting and manipulating people
and the entire manipulation of zero-requiem depends on NO ONE figuring out the truth ever

once someone figures it out, all bets are off
Lelouch cant predict what would happen several years after his death down to what every single person on earth would do
and suzaku is the one who is left to deal with it alone (or at least, without Lelouch)
not to worry
after all, do you really think Lelouch would have left him in charge of the world if he didn't think he could handle it ?

Quote:
Actually, Charles and Schneizel were portrayed as "not justified" by having Lelouch beat them the way he did.
that means that if shnizel had beaten Lelouch and rained nukes on the world, he would have been proven justified ?
if the OOBK didn't kick Lelouch out when they did just in time for him to stop charles then HE would have been justified ?
or if kallen had actually killed Lelouch in the hanger, then it would have ment Lelouch wasn't justified anymore ?

failure on the way to an objective, does not negate the objective's validity
nor does achieving an objective automatically make it justified
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Old 2010-01-24, 12:52   Link #795
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who says Lelouch is omniscient
Just ask Schneizel! They had a conversation about that, except that Lelouch was really standing outside his door the whole time!

Quote:
once someone figures it out, all bets are off
Lelouch cant predict what would happen several years after his death down to what every single person on earth would do
and suzaku is the one who is left to deal with it alone (or at least, without Lelouch)
not to worry
after all, do you really think Lelouch would have left him in charge of the world if he didn't think he could handle it ?
But Suzaku can't handle an enemy that is anywhere near as fabulous as Lelouch or Schneizel. And it isn't a problem, because the probability of one appearing in the next fifty years or so is incredibly low.

Quote:
that means that if shnizel had beaten Lelouch and rained nukes on the world, he would have been proven justified ?
If an epilogue had followed in which the world had become a happy little Clovis Land... yes, he would have been portrayed as pretty much justified.

Quote:
if the OOBK didn't kick Lelouch out when they did just in time for him to stop charles then HE would have been justified ?
or if kallen had actually killed Lelouch in the hanger, then it would have ment Lelouch wasn't justified anymore ?
This is a work of fiction. The staff portrayed things in certain ways because they were meant to come across like that.
Edit: Just look at the ending of Death Note and compare.

Quote:
failure on the way to an objective, does not negate the objective's validity
nor does achieving an objective automatically make it justified
In real life? True, except if you are a consequentialist and (dis)like the outcome.
Otherwise, it depends on how the author treats the issue.
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Old 2010-01-24, 12:57   Link #796
bladeofdarkness
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But Suzaku can't handle an enemy that is anywhere near as fabulous as Lelouch or Schneizel.
too bad
cause he is zero now, and when one comes along, he's going to have to deal with it
thats what it means to be zero, for good or ill

besides, he was a pretty big obstacle for Lelouch during much of the show
is he somehow less effective when fighting for the good guys ?
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Old 2010-01-24, 13:06   Link #797
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too bad
cause he is zero now, so if one comes along, he's going to have to
But there will be no second Lelouch or Schneizel, so that's all right.

Quote:
besides, he was a pretty big obstacle for Lelouch during much of the show
is he somehow less effective when fighting for the good guys ?
Suzaku was never a strategist.
When he got in Lelouch's way, it was usually either in combat, or when he had some sort of special advantage (the sort his hypothetical, cruelly wronged opponent would now have).
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Old 2010-01-24, 13:12   Link #798
bladeofdarkness
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But there will be no second Lelouch or Schneizel, so that's all right.
you dont need to be a Lelouch level guy to be a threat
someone on xing-ke, toudo or cornellia's level is enough

Quote:
Suzaku was never a strategist.
When he got in Lelouch's way, it was usually either in combat, or when he had some sort of special advantage (the sort his hypothetical, cruelly wronged opponent would now have).
irrelevent
he's still going to have to deal with it
if he couldn't play the role and protect the world, Lelouch wouldn't have appointed him to it
and if he really isn't capable of protecting the world... well so much for Lelouch being "omniscient"

after all, whats the "punishment" in being zero, if all you do is act like nunnaly's butler and get undying love from every man woman and child on the planet
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Old 2010-01-24, 13:25   Link #799
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
you dont need to be a Lelouch level guy to be a threat
someone on xing-ke, toudo or cornellia's level is enough
Enough, but not at all "epic".

Quote:
after all, whats the "punishment" in being zero, if all you do is act like nunnaly's butler and get undying love from every man woman and child on the planet
What's the punishment in dying when you don't mind at all? Lelouch got his happy ending through his "punishment", so why can't the same be true for his faithful knight?

Suzaku wanted to die but got to live - with all his self-hate and the memory of the people he lost. But for Suzaku, being punished is actually a good thing because it's the only way he can move on, and Lelouch never intended to for him to suffer.
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Old 2010-01-24, 13:29   Link #800
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Enough, but not at all "epic".
oh dont worry
he'll be plenty epic
being a large ham and being a super genius is not the same
shnizel is Lelouch level smart, but isn't "epic" at all
and this new guy isn't up against Lelouch, but against an imposter who's in way over his head
zero is suppose to be a brilliant strategist, a charismatic leader and a political genius
suzaku is a glorified pilot
it doesn't take someone of Lelouch's level of genius to show him up like a punk
at least at first

Quote:
What's the punishment in dying when you don't mind at all? Lelouch got his happy ending through his "punishment", so why can't the same be true for his faithful knight?

Suzaku wanted to die but got to live - with all his self-hate and the memory of the people he lost. But for Suzaku, being punished is actually a good thing because it's the only way he can move on, and Lelouch never intended to for him to suffer.
you missed the point
suzaku has a duty to take care of any problem that comes along and endangers the peace
a problem comes along and endangers the peace
now suzaku has to take care of it
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