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Old 2010-01-24, 16:02   Link #5641
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
If you think fighting back is going to work your damn wrong, because after you overcome one bully there will be another waiting, there will always be someone with more power or more money able to manipulate you in away you don't want to. It's a societal problem where we devalue everything that doesn't feed our ego, and bullying fits perfectly into the me first society that America has developed into.

do what Ender did, beat them so hard they are now more scare of you then thinking ganging up on you again.
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Old 2010-01-24, 17:42   Link #5642
npcomplete
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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Again, this is a dangerous approach to take, because this only works in environments where a little beating is the worst it can get. In harsher environments violence can and will escalate beyond that level very quickly if that's the path you take, and then some kid(s) end up lying dead on the basketball court with a bullet wound.
Yeah I realize that escalation is very possible which was why I mentioned wouldn't be accepted. I do have some thoughts about how to actually deal with that, which to be honest is probably too radical for most, so I won't get into that here. The problem is that bullying is sometimes simply just accepted here. And most approaches only deal with the effects and not the causes, which really can only be addressed at home with the parents. These approaches still leave bullies as bullies, with perhaps even more resentment just lower incidences of bullying, or switching from physical harassment to verbal taunting.

I think most of us can understand the victim, but I don't think most consider that from the bully's point of view, he/she actually feels fully justified in his/her actions. Since most fear-based punishment approaches that is typically used here won't work in changing that mindset, and if the authorities ignore the situation, then an approach where victims would not be punished in turn for defending themselves would be no worse. It can potentially be better by at least removing the satisfaction of bullying from the bullies.

Quote:
No offense, but it sounds like both you and Neat came from neighborhoods on the more peaceful side of the spectrum. I'd strongly encourage anyone that fortunate to preserve the peace as best as they can and find some way other than 'an eye for an eye'.
Lol, no offense taken, I guess I do have to be grateful for it being relatively peaceful
Spoiler for could've been better; could've been worse:

But yes I certainly do think it wiser to try to deter bullying. I'm not advocating an immediate retaliatory approach, but a sort of right to defend oneself, where victims won't end up the ones punished by using actions that may appear to be instigated by them (from those who have ignored the situation), as a last resort.

(BTW interestingly researchers now say that Hammurabi created the eye-for-an-eye law in order to prevent any escalation of violence actually)
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Old 2010-01-24, 18:08   Link #5643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
If you think fighting back is going to work your damn wrong, because after you overcome one bully there will be another waiting, there will always be someone with more power or more money able to manipulate you in away you don't want to. It's a societal problem where we devalue everything that doesn't feed our ego, and bullying fits perfectly into the me first society that America has developed into.
I'd have to say you're wrong. When I didn't fight back, the bully just grew more confident in his actions and things would only get worse. When I finally did fight back, and kicked the crap out of him, he'd go away.

Case in point. 1994-1995 my Freshman year of High School. Robert Nintemen and his band of merry men use to harass me every day in P.E.(Physical Education). EVERY DAY. I was a massive 5'0" and 85-90 lbs(third smallest guy in a school of 2200 students), to his 5'7" 145 lbs. Finally after several months of abuse, I stood my ground and hit him until he cried. His 4 friends were all set to jump me 4vs1, when the Seniors showed up and told them anything more than 1v1 would get them involved to even the odds. Robert never even looked at me again over the next 3 1/2 years....

Sophmore year, P.E. class. A student I wasn't really familiar with, started the same crap at every opportunity. Pushing me into the bleachers when playing basketball. Knocking me into a fence during football. Again I decided to stand up to him. His friends were there to back him up. The Seniors came along and backed me up. A fight didn't break out, but they backed down, and never bothered me again.

Everytime I tried to avoid them, ran away, went to teachers and staff, nothing happened. Everytime I stood up for myself and faced the bullies head on, I ended up finding peace. The only thing Bulliest respect is strength. If you don't show them strength, they will not even so much as pity you while they kick you down. Stand up to them and give them a taste of their own pain, and 99.999% of the time they will go away, or end up being your best friend years later. 100% of the time you try and avoid bullies or run away, they will only get worse.
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Old 2010-01-24, 18:21   Link #5644
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To the people who say beat them to living death, my point is that there will always be a bully, sometimes there just people who are physically stronger but sometimes they are people with real power, authority, such as the police, or a boss. These people don't have to use physical means to bully you. Of course bullying for kids tends to be that of physical in nature when dealing with kids, in the end the problem lies with the acceptance of bullying, and lack of action and societal outrage to this kind of behavior. There will always be a bully, and sometimes those bullies have more control than just being more imposing physically. I understand the need to confront bullies but dealing only with childhood bullies is not the only thing that needs to be addressed, the use of intimadation and misuse of power is also important to look at.
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Old 2010-01-24, 18:28   Link #5645
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I'd have to say you're wrong. When I didn't fight back, the bully just grew more confident in his actions and things would only get worse. When I finally did fight back, and kicked the crap out of him, he'd go away.

Case in point. 1994-1995 my Freshman year of High School. Robert Nintemen and his band of merry men use to harass me every day in P.E.(Physical Education). EVERY DAY. I was a massive 5'0" and 85-90 lbs(third smallest guy in a school of 2200 students), to his 5'7" 145 lbs. Finally after several months of abuse, I stood my ground and hit him until he cried. His 4 friends were all set to jump me 4vs1, when the Seniors showed up and told them anything more than 1v1 would get them involved to even the odds. Robert never even looked at me again over the next 3 1/2 years....

Sophmore year, P.E. class. A student I wasn't really familiar with, started the same crap at every opportunity. Pushing me into the bleachers when playing basketball. Knocking me into a fence during football. Again I decided to stand up to him. His friends were there to back him up. The Seniors came along and backed me up. A fight didn't break out, but they backed down, and never bothered me again.

Everytime I tried to avoid them, ran away, went to teachers and staff, nothing happened. Everytime I stood up for myself and faced the bullies head on, I ended up finding peace. The only thing Bulliest respect is strength. If you don't show them strength, they will not even so much as pity you while they kick you down. Stand up to them and give them a taste of their own pain, and 99.999% of the time they will go away, or end up being your best friend years later. 100% of the time you try and avoid bullies or run away, they will only get worse.
Defending yourself if it's absolutely necessary is one thing. But the key term here is necessary. You should never be the one to initiate a fight, and if someone challenges you to a fight, don't accept. Necessary self-defense is if the guy is coming at you right then and then there looking to do violence unto you. Anything else is just you countering bullying with bullying.

If you pursue things through the proper channels with enough conviction then you can get the far more effective message through of "your behavior will not fly in society" rather "if you screw with me personally I will beat you up", which only bolsters your own ego and doesn't actually correct the problem except in Shounen manga.

And once again, you only even have the luxury of fighting someone and expecting it to work even the rarest of times if you're in a very insular, safe environment where you socking the kid one day doesn't get you killed walking home the next week. It's just a poor policy all around.
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Old 2010-01-24, 20:29   Link #5646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I'd have to say you're wrong. When I didn't fight back, the bully just grew more confident in his actions and things would only get worse. When I finally did fight back, and kicked the crap out of him, he'd go away.

Case in point. 1994-1995 my Freshman year of High School. Robert Nintemen and his band of merry men use to harass me every day in P.E.(Physical Education). EVERY DAY. I was a massive 5'0" and 85-90 lbs(third smallest guy in a school of 2200 students), to his 5'7" 145 lbs. Finally after several months of abuse, I stood my ground and hit him until he cried. His 4 friends were all set to jump me 4vs1, when the Seniors showed up and told them anything more than 1v1 would get them involved to even the odds. Robert never even looked at me again over the next 3 1/2 years....

Sophmore year, P.E. class. A student I wasn't really familiar with, started the same crap at every opportunity. Pushing me into the bleachers when playing basketball. Knocking me into a fence during football. Again I decided to stand up to him. His friends were there to back him up. The Seniors came along and backed me up. A fight didn't break out, but they backed down, and never bothered me again.

Everytime I tried to avoid them, ran away, went to teachers and staff, nothing happened. Everytime I stood up for myself and faced the bullies head on, I ended up finding peace. The only thing Bulliest respect is strength. If you don't show them strength, they will not even so much as pity you while they kick you down. Stand up to them and give them a taste of their own pain, and 99.999% of the time they will go away, or end up being your best friend years later. 100% of the time you try and avoid bullies or run away, they will only get worse.
I gotta give respect to your seniors, they seem to have had your back!

But that is true; bullies only stop when you show them that you can kick their ass. I would know, seeing as I was bullied and bullied during elementary school (Looking back on it I had a really violent childhood; didn't I?) Bullies only know strength be it physical or through authority. If you're "strong" people aren't going to try bullying you, in the inside most bullies are afraid of getting the crap beaten out of them; they're naturally insecure and need to prove their dominance.
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Old 2010-01-24, 20:33   Link #5647
npcomplete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Defending yourself if it's absolutely necessary is one thing. But the key term here is necessary. You should never be the one to initiate a fight, and if someone challenges you to a fight, don't accept. Necessary self-defense is if the guy is coming at you right then and then there looking to do violence unto you. Anything else is just you countering bullying with bullying.

If you pursue things through the proper channels with enough conviction then you can get the far more effective message through of "your behavior will not fly in society" rather "if you screw with me personally I will beat you up", which only bolsters your own ego and doesn't actually correct the problem except in Shounen manga.

And once again, you only even have the luxury of fighting someone and expecting it to work even the rarest of times if you're in a very insular, safe environment where you socking the kid one day doesn't get you killed walking home the next week. It's just a poor policy all around.
I do have to say that for one thing, going through proper channels, reporting the incident to teachers, etc. doesn't always work. In fact in many case it does not, like we already see; I'd be surprised if it did really.

But that doesn't guarantee the bully won't do the same regardless if he's punished in an official manner. In fact I'd contend that in some cases it may be worse. If you go report it and the authorities they make a big deal about it, especially if they shame the bully publicly even when his parents are involved, then that could lead to a huge amount of resentment that gets built up. He might be thinking, "You just wait, I'll get you yet you f'ing tattling pussy".

I have to say that it sounds really naive to think they telling a bully who you say would potentially come back at you with a gun that being lectured from proper channels would make a difference. They're aware of their own actions; they just feel justified somehow. Punishing them "officially" -- if it even happens -- is not likely to change their minds. Getting them into big trouble, they may even think "what have I got to loose?"

Sometimes settling matters personally can help. I think it's also important not conflate the kind of bullying we see here, where people do it because they can get away with it, often through ignorance or negligence of the teachers and parents, with the kind the of gansterism you might be alluding to. It's a whole different world, really (and there isn't even much of the same kind of bullying).

If you're dealing with vatos who just don't give a fuck, trust me, they're way past caring about "your behavior will not fly in society" (in fact, they'll resent it even more). I'm not saying to confront or provoke them without reason, but actually deal with them straight-on, calmly asking "why", "what do they want", then asking if they want settle things in honest manner, would work 10x better than trying to get them suspended from school--in which case, for someone who already doesn't care, will surely increase the chances of them picking up a gun. In a weird, perhaps chauvinistic way, it may be seen by the offender as providing more integrity and actually has a chance to remove the desire for bullying in him, like a catharsis for the emotional root cause.
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Old 2010-01-24, 21:18   Link #5648
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by npcomplete View Post
I do have to say that for one thing, going through proper channels, reporting the incident to teachers, etc. doesn't always work. In fact in many case it does not, like we already see; I'd be surprised if it did really.

But that doesn't guarantee the bully won't do the same regardless if he's punished in an official manner.
With the kind of bullying most of the posters are talking about, you're dealing with the sort of person who will slink off the second they get their hand slapped by someone they can't touch.

Quote:
In fact I'd contend that in some cases it may be worse. If you go report it and the authorities they make a big deal about it, especially if they shame the bully publicly even when his parents are involved, then that could lead to a huge amount of resentment that gets built up. He might be thinking, "You just wait, I'll get you yet you f'ing tattling pussy".
Again, it depends on the sort of person you're dealing with. Keep in mind that my advice has been aimed at people who have the luxury of a safe, low-conflict environment but who, through haste, might skip to violence when they are fortunate enough to be able to skip it. These sorts of childish shoving antics that are being described go away with a stern talking to.

Quote:
I have to say that it sounds really naive to think they telling a bully who you say would potentially come back at you with a gun that being lectured from proper channels would make a difference. They're aware of their own actions; they just feel justified somehow. Punishing them "officially" -- if it even happens -- is not likely to change their minds. Getting them into big trouble, they may even think "what have I got to loose?"
And again, keep in mind that I'm talking about making use of the advantages you're given, in the posts I've seen, it does not sound at all like they're dealing with gangster types, and I'm saying that while you're in a safe neighborhood, you need to learn the alternatives to violence, which in this case is dealing with authority figures, so that if you do encounter real shit later in life, you know not to do something stupid that will get yourself killed.

Quote:
I think it's also important not conflate the kind of bullying we see here, where people do it because they can get away with it, often through ignorance or negligence of the teachers and parents, with the kind the of gangsterism you might be alluding to. It's a whole different world, really (and there isn't even much of the same kind of bullying).
Absolutely. My whole argument has been that people need to draw a distinction between the petty situations where their 'fight back' philosophy works and the real situations where something else is required.

Quote:
If you're dealing with vatos who just don't give a fuck, trust me, they're way past caring about "your behavior will not fly in society" (in fact, they'll resent it even more). I'm not saying to confront or provoke them without reason, but actually deal with them straight-on, calmly asking "why", "what do they want", then asking if they want settle things in honest manner, would work 10x better than trying to get them suspended from school--in which case, for someone who already doesn't care, will surely increase the chances of them picking up a gun.
Again, the 'get them suspended' thing was only ever intended as my opinion on how someone with the luxury of a safe environment should respond to these situations. I never had that luxury growing up, and I know trying it would have ended piss poorly. Conversely, though, trying to talk things out works maybe 1/4 of the time, because it's only about that often that someone actually wants something from you. Sure, as you get older they start using violence to get specific things from you, but I got a knife pulled on me when I was eight just for the kid's lulz and a guy tried to give me a five-finger makeover because he found my Arabic facial features offensive when I was 10. I tried to be reasonable, but in the end it came down to me being fortunate enough to be quick and sneaky enough to slip out of both situations. That has just as much chance of success, in my experience, as talking it out, and both are more successful than asserting yourself with violence.

I'm sure there are cases where taking the initiative to lay down the law yourself works out, but I saw enough kids get hospitalized or killed over it versus the kids who were just clever enough to avoid those people in the first place that it genuinely seems like the wrong course to me. The kind of direct discussion you're talking about only ever happens if the person has honor and reason, which is pretty rare in the sort of gangster we're talking about.


TL;DR: I'm making a distinction between the situations where the violence works (bullying) and the situations where it doesn't (adult world, gangsterism) to counter the 'well, beating up these guys worked for me, so that's how you stand up for yourself' approach I'm seeing.
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Old 2010-01-24, 21:22   Link #5649
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Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
I gotta give respect to your seniors, they seem to have had your back!

But that is true; bullies only stop when you show them that you can kick their ass. I would know, seeing as I was bullied and bullied during elementary school (Looking back on it I had a really violent childhood; didn't I?) Bullies only know strength be it physical or through authority. If you're "strong" people aren't going to try bullying you, in the inside most bullies are afraid of getting the crap beaten out of them; they're naturally insecure and need to prove their dominance.
I was really fortunate to have understanding seniors otherwise I would have gotten a few beatings due to the odds being against me.

I had since returned the favor my Senior year and stood up for Fresmen/Sophmores who were going through what I had gone through.
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Old 2010-01-24, 22:02   Link #5650
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All White BasketBall League



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A new professional basketball league boasting rosters made up exclusively of white Americans has its eyes set on Augusta, but the team isn't receiving a warm welcome.


The All-American Basketball Alliance announced in a news release Sunday evening that it intends to start its inaugural season in June and hopes Augusta will be one of 12 cities with a team. "Only players that are natural born United States citizens with both parents of Caucasian race are eligible to play in the league," the statement said. Augusta Mayor Deke Copenhaver, who has publicly expressed his support for minor league teams in the past, said he would not do the same for this team.


"As a sports enthusiast, I have always supported bringing more sporting activities to Augusta," he said. "However, in this instance I could not support in good conscience bringing in a team that did not fit with the spirit of inclusiveness that I, along with many others, have worked so hard to foster in our city."Clint Bryant, athletic director at Augusta State University, laughed when he heard the news. "It's so absurd, it's funny, but it gives you an idea of the sickness of our society" he said. "It shows you what lengths people will go to just to be mean-spirited. I think at any basketball level, no matter if it's all black, all white, all Hispanic, all Asian or anyone else, the players should just be a basketball team."

Don "Moose" Lewis, the commissioner of the AABA, said the reasoning behind the league's roster restrictions is not racism.


"There's nothing hatred about what we're doing," he said. "I don't hate anyone of color. But people of white, American-born citizens are in the minority now. Here's a league for white players to play fundamental basketball, which they like." Lewis said he wants to emphasize fundamental basketball instead of "street-ball" played by "people of color." He pointed out recent incidents in the NBA, including Gilbert Arenas' indefinite suspension after bringing guns into the Washington Wizards locker room, as examples of fans' dissatisfaction with the way current professional sports are run. "Would you want to go to the game and worry about a player flipping you off or attacking you in the stands or grabbing their crotch?" he said. "That's the culture today, and in a free country we should have the right to move ourselves in a better direction."


The Atlanta-based league, which will operate as a single-entity owning all of its teams, is looking for local contacts to pay $10,000 to become a "licensee" in one of 12 cities throughout the Southeast. Lewis said he has already received threats from people opposed to the roster restrictions and several cities have told him to stay out of town. Lewis said he has yet to hear from any one in Augusta. "We need a local person ingrained into the community to make this successful," he said. Lewis said he expects to eventually find support in every town with a team. "People will come out and support a product they can identify with. I'm the spoken minority right now, but if people will give us a chance, it'll work... The white game of basketball, which is essentially a fundamental game, works." Lewis said he wasn't sure where the team will play.


Augusta has had problems with minor league basketball teams in the past, but the issues never centered around race. The Augusta Drive lasted less than a month before folding in 1995, citing financial reasons. The Augusta Groove made it through a full, 20-game schedule in 2009, but accusations from players and local businesses that the team wasn't paying its bills surrounded the team during the second half of the season. The team later shut down in the offseason.

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I wonder if the all white team will have confederate uniforms, or if they will play in their robes without the hoods?
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Old 2010-01-24, 22:22   Link #5651
mg1942
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AABA teams:

Dallas Crackers
Houston Honkies
Philidelphia Peckerwoods
Nawlins Coonasses
San Antonio Gringos
New Jersy Guidos
New York Hoopin Hebrews
Washington Wiggers

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Old 2010-01-24, 22:26   Link #5652
Zu Ra
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First the confederate flag now AABA ... when will these people learn . Next replace BET with WET O_O

EDIT : Forgot they already had Faux News
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Old 2010-01-24, 22:27   Link #5653
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The Augusta Aryan Brotherhood
The Savannah Stormtroopers
The Kansas City Klan

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First the confederate flag now ABBA ... when will these people learn . Next replace BET with WET O_O
CMT already exists.
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Old 2010-01-24, 22:28   Link #5654
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Wiggers? Peckerwoods? Hoopin Hebrews?

Sounds like the British/Redneck/Jewish league to me.
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Old 2010-01-24, 22:31   Link #5655
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Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post
First the confederate flag now AABA ... when will these people learn . Next replace BET with WET O_O

EDIT : Forgot they already had Faux News
Look at it this way... it makes it easier to keep an eye on the moonbats and they're distracted by the game.

The commisioner's own quote says it all:
Quote:
"There's nothing hatred about what we're doing," he said. "I don't hate anyone of color. But people of white, American-born citizens are in the minority now. Here's a league for white players to play fundamental basketball, which they like." Lewis said he wants to emphasize fundamental basketball instead of "street-ball" played by "people of color."
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Old 2010-01-24, 22:31   Link #5656
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Wiggers?

Sounds like the British
Perhaps you are confusing wigger with whig?
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Old 2010-01-24, 22:33   Link #5657
mg1942
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no need for WET... there's subtler version called CMT



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Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post
First the confederate flag now AABA ... when will these people learn . Next replace BET with WET O_O

EDIT : Forgot they already had Faux News


Confederate flag actually looks good on the plate and roof of Dodge Charger
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Old 2010-01-24, 22:35   Link #5658
MeoTwister5
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Perhaps you are confusing wigger with whig?
Yeah. That was the first association that came into my head.
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Old 2010-01-24, 23:00   Link #5659
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The Augusta Aryan Brotherhood
The Savannah Stormtroopers
The Kansas City Klan

CMT already exists.
Hey what's wrong with CMT?
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Old 2010-01-24, 23:00   Link #5660
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Looks like Bin Laden sends Obama a warning

Bin Laden warns Obama of more attacks


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DUBAI (AFP) - – Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden claimed responsibility for the botched Christmas Day bombing of a US airliner and vowed further strikes on American targets, in an audio message broadcast on Sunday.

The message aired by Al-Jazeera television warned US President Barack Obama the attack was meant as a similar message to September 11, 2001 when Al-Qaeda militants hijacked and crashed passenger jets into iconic American buildings.

The recording said it was a message from "Osama to Obama," and IntelCenter, a US group that monitors Islamist websites, said it contained "language used by bin Laden... in advance of attacks."
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