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Old 2010-01-19, 11:34   Link #2301
rogerpepitone
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The case of the poisoned chocolates? Are you referring to The Poisoned Chocolates Case by Anthony Berkeley?
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Old 2010-01-19, 11:47   Link #2302
maximilianjenus
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yes, that one, I translated it like that becuase i read the spanish version. ryukishi also talked a bit about that in the last part queen letter; basically, erika was stuck at level 3 or so of the cases mayeb if natsuhi had accepted kinzo's death she might have arrived to a better conclusion/closer to the culprit; but it looks like (board) the family cared more about making natsuhi accept kinzo was dead and (meta) bern cared more about proving that a human could have done it.
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Old 2010-01-19, 21:56   Link #2303
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Beatrice, but more specifically any wielder of the Endless Magic.

It goes Certainty > Endless > 'Miracles' > Certainty.
These three types of witches, barring witches of truth and resurrection... seem to remind me of the three styles of debate.
Pathos, Logos, and Ethos.
That is, passion, logic, and ethics.
I wonder which is which.
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Old 2010-01-19, 22:20   Link #2304
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Originally Posted by pmoys View Post
These three types of witches, barring witches of truth and resurrection... seem to remind me of the three styles of debate.
Pathos, Logos, and Ethos.
That is, passion, logic, and ethics.
I wonder which is which.
Certainty - Passion (you can accomplish something as long as you put your mind to it)
Endless - Ethics (just because you can break something doesn't mean you should)
Logic - Miracles (miracles are miracles because they don't happen - common logic )

That's how I see it myself.
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Old 2010-01-19, 22:30   Link #2305
pmoys
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Certainty - Passion (you can accomplish something as long as you put your mind to it)
Endless - Ethics (just because you can break something doesn't mean you should)
Logic - Miracles (miracles are miracles because they don't happen - common logic )

That's how I see it myself.
Ah! I had viewed it at
certainty = logic
endless = ethics (last throughout time.. well not truley, as they shift with each generation, but meh.)
and miracles to be passion, because miracles is technically the power of probability, and it speaks to me the same way a woman can lift a car to save her child. In NO OTHER circumstance, would that occur, imho, unless she was a bodybuilder or something, and it makes the probability low, however we know it to be adrenaline, etc. but it is still described as a miracle. does this make sense?
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Last edited by pmoys; 2010-01-19 at 22:30. Reason: for editing. i need a reason to edit?
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Old 2010-01-20, 13:56   Link #2306
maximilianjenus
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the last queen part and the The Poisoned Chocolates Case bring to this teh idea that no matter how good a detective is, if there are lacking clues he won't get tothe correct solution of a case even fi the solution itself is good and logical. Like in erika's case, since natushi refused to accept kinzo's and krauss death status that made her the culprit on that theory.
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Old 2010-01-20, 13:57   Link #2307
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Well certainty equaling pathos makes sense if you've read Lamda's diary.
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Old 2010-01-21, 00:53   Link #2308
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(Originally my beta version of my Ep2 map & notes.)

Phased out. You can now find my map here.

Last edited by TeeHee; 2010-01-26 at 22:42. Reason: Redirect.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:59   Link #2309
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If Shannon wanted to, she could call Eva and offer "information dangerous to Krauss" in return for Eva supporting the George-Shannon marriage.
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Old 2010-01-21, 10:21   Link #2310
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
If Shannon wanted to, she could call Eva and offer "information dangerous to Krauss" in return for Eva supporting the George-Shannon marriage.
Did you ever get the sense that Shannon actually pulled it off? I didn't. Eva always seemed repulsed by the idea, even on the game board.
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Old 2010-01-21, 12:30   Link #2311
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hahaha, those notes are fun, keep on going.
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Old 2010-01-22, 15:49   Link #2312
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Great notes This looks fun! I personally would've put George and Eva's arranged marriage talk in there because I think it's important, but great job mapping it out.

Maybe I'll try mapping it out some too.
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Old 2010-01-22, 16:12   Link #2313
TeeHee
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Great notes This looks fun! I personally would've put George and Eva's arranged marriage talk in there because I think it's important, but great job mapping it out.

Maybe I'll try mapping it out some too.
In my defense, I'm only jotting down the stuff that interests me the most. I will add a single bullet point to my final publication, though. Just for you!

Edit: Here's five bullet points:
- Marriage meeting: George knew what Eva meant when she said, "You know, that topic?"
- Intended strategy of marriage meeting: allow time for friendship to develop, then initiate engagement and marriage at an appropriate time. Then move her to the family register.
- "If you marry based on emotions, you'll definitely regret it." -Eva
- Isn't that rude to Hideyoshi? -Jessica
- I love him! We built up those feelings while we were husband and wife. A marriage is instant. -Eva

But really, I see this as more of R07's plot device to showcase Eva's irritation with Shannon than useful specificity.

Last edited by TeeHee; 2010-01-22 at 16:29.
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Old 2010-01-24, 17:08   Link #2314
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Kind of going off on a tangent here, but it's been on my mind, so...

There has been some discussion about the concept that "When Kanon dies, he's actually just discarding his life as 'furniture' and taking back his real name". I've had a problem with this explanation for a while now, and I think I can finally put my feelings into words.

Let me propose a hypothetical scenario to you: In my basement, I have a large vault. There is only one door to the vault. Once that door is closed, it can only be opened from the outside. There are absolutely no ways in or out of the vault other than the single door. There is no place in this vault that a person could hide. And, for good measure Noone has ever died in this vault.

Now then, I grab 10 random people off the street and lock them inside. Only 10 people entered this vault! They were locked inside and had no way to leave. I leave them in there for a few hours, and when I open it back up, everyone in the vault is dead (suffocated probably...).

Now then, this is when things get real: 14 people died in this vault! All of them died in the last hour! After the vault was locked, noone else was able to enter or leave!



Are you starting to get where my problem lies? There are more victims than there were people in the vault. How do I explain this? Easy- one of the people in there had multiple personalities. 5 total personalities in fact. If I count each of the extra persona as an individual person, I can easily have more 'victims' than I have 'people' in the vault. This seems to be the general thinking of the people supporting the theory that when Kanon 'dies' he's just discarding that name and life, and taking back his real one.

But this is where my problem lies- this means you're holding the red to a double standard. If an alternate personality counts as a individual person in terms of being dead, shouldn't they also count as an individual when they are alive? There are no more than 17 people on this island! In the above scenario, either I would have had to say 14 people entered this vault and later died or 10 people etc etc. I can't have 14 victims come out of 10 people.

... Let's not conjure up victims out of thin air.

Also, admittedly, the Shannon=Kanon theory might get around this, but it rather negates the point of the theory in the first place- the whole point of the theory was to create room for a 17th person to come into the story without violating the red. And if we're counting Shannon and Kanon as individuals, even if they are two persona of the same person, that just leaves us with the same 17 people we had in the first place.
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Old 2010-01-24, 19:06   Link #2315
rogerpepitone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
Did you ever get the sense that Shannon actually pulled it off? I didn't. Eva always seemed repulsed by the idea, even on the game board.
I'm not sure what you're asking here. Let me rephrase:

Shannon had the opportunity to betray Krauss and gain George. There's no evidence that she did so. (Minor support of the "Shannon doesn't return George's feelings" hypothesis.)

Also: Why would Kinzo's body still be on Rokkenjima? Krauss could have sailed out a few miles, weighed down Kinzo's corpse, and thrown it overboard. Why keep it around?

Anybody know how well a charred corpse would be preserved? (Isn't smoking meat a form of preservation?)
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Old 2010-01-24, 22:35   Link #2316
TeeHee
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Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
Kind of going off on a tangent here, but it's been on my mind, so...
Don't worry. At least some of us respect the Decalogue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I'm not sure what you're asking here. Let me rephrase:

Shannon had the opportunity to betray Krauss and gain George. There's no evidence that she did so. (Minor support of the "Shannon doesn't return George's feelings" hypothesis.)

Also: Why would Kinzo's body still be on Rokkenjima? Krauss could have sailed out a few miles, weighed down Kinzo's corpse, and thrown it overboard. Why keep it around?

Anybody know how well a charred corpse would be preserved? (Isn't smoking meat a form of preservation?)
Were you trying to rephrase my suggestion? Then you'd be correct. I do not get the impression that Shannon coerced Eva into making the Shannon-George marriage acceptable by providing some dirt on Krauss/Natsuhi. Why? Because Eva is still against the marriage, regardless of the circumstances.

If you weren't rephrasing me, then maybe we're more on the same track than we think. I do support the "Shannon doesn't return George's feelings" hypothesis.

As for Kinzo's body, stupid is as stupid does. Regardless, I have no doubt that his body is there. And there are no professional coroners on the island. Also, an island like Rokkenjima is a controlled environment.

Last edited by TeeHee; 2010-01-25 at 07:36. Reason: addendum, and I toned it down a bit.
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Old 2010-01-26, 22:39   Link #2317
TeeHee
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Episode 2 Map, version 5.0
(5.0 means that I watched EP 5, and this is my first iteration. The next iteration would be 5.1, if I apply it. When that happens, I will forward you to this updated post.)

Most of my thoughts are integrated with the individual scenes. It still needs some sheep-wolves analysis.

And these two question are bugging me:
- Is it possible that Beatrice gave Maria the envelope with the key long after the scene where they met? After all, Rosa witnessed magic, right?
- We never see Rosa open the envelope in her posession. Where did it go? Did she read it at the parents' discussion and reseal it, or did it end up in the Parlor in the last scene? Or better yet, did Beatrice meet up with Maria again and hand her another envelope with the key?

By the way, Rosa really strikes me as innocent in this episode.
1) She pukes all over the floor.
2) It was established in red that she always had all five master keys in her posession, except when she handed one to Battler for the moment.

Spoiler for How did this get so huge?:

Last edited by TeeHee; 2010-01-27 at 09:00. Reason: another typo
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Old 2010-01-26, 23:39   Link #2318
Ronove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
Episode 2 Map, version 5.0
(5.0 means that I watched EP 5, and this is my first iteration. The next iteration would be 5.1, if I apply it. When that happens, I will forward you to this updated post.)

Most of my thoughts are integrated with the individual scenes. It still needs some sheep-wolves analysis.

And these two question are bugging me:
- Is it possible that Beatrice gave Maria the envelope with the key long after the scene where they met? After all, Rosa witnessed magic, right?
- We never see Rosa open the envelope in her posession. Where did it go? Did she read it at the parents' discussion and reseal it, or did it end up in the Parlor in the last scene? Or better yet, did Beatrice meet up with Maria again and hand her another envelope with the key?

By the way, Rosa really strikes me as innocent in this episode.
1) She pukes all over the floor.
2) It was established in red that she always had all five master keys in her posession, except when she handed one to Battler for the moment.

Spoiler for How did this get so huge?:
Sweet, loving these thoughts. So I'm supposing we could practically solve the truth using Shannon as the culprit? I guess you sort of solved "who dunnit", "how dunnit", but "why dunnit" is still a bit vague.

Anyways, thanks for the boost of encouragement to think more!
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Old 2010-01-27, 01:43   Link #2319
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
Episode 2 Map, version 5.0
(5.0 means that I watched EP 5, and this is my first iteration. The next iteration would be 5.1, if I apply it. When that happens, I will forward you to this updated post.)

Most of my thoughts are integrated with the individual scenes. It still needs some sheep-wolves analysis.

And these two question are bugging me:
- Is it possible that Beatrice gave Maria the envelope with the key long after the scene where they met? After all, Rosa witnessed magic, right?
- We never see Rosa open the envelope in her posession. Where did it go? Did she read it at the parents' discussion and reseal it, or did it end up in the Parlor in the last scene? Or better yet, did Beatrice meet up with Maria again and hand her another envelope with the key?

By the way, Rosa really strikes me as innocent in this episode.
1) She pukes all over the floor.
2) It was established in red that she always had all five master keys in her posession, except when she handed one to Battler for the moment.
I think it was said that Maria bragged to the cousins about the letter after she got it, so at least that part seems to be true. Afterwards, Maria was with the other cousins pretty much constantly (although I guess she probably went to the bathroom at some point). Also, some of the red text referred to "the next day when Rosa opened the envelope", so at the very least Maria must have received it before midnight.

As for Rosa's innocence, during the first twilight battle, Beato refused to repeat that "The key to the chapel inside the envelope wasn’t used even once until Rosa oba-san opened the envelope." The start of the period in question isn't specified, so it's really saying "The key wasn't used even once from the beginning of the game until Rosa opened the envelope." Turning that around and taking into account that no one laid hands on the key while it was in the envelope, Beato's refusal means that the key was used sometime before 1pm on October 4th.

The chapel door is normally kept locked and isn't usually visited by the servants. The only obvious reason for going there prior to the key being handed over to Maria is to set up the Halloween party scene, and Rosa was never away from observation by other people long enough to arrange something so elaborate. On that basis, I think we can be nearly certain that the party was set up by someone other than Rosa.
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Old 2010-01-27, 04:34   Link #2320
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Good stuff TeeHee. Your notes about the deaths of Shannon and co in Natsuhi's bedroom have my juices flowing again...

Spoiler for The basics:




My issue with any theories regarding the servants still outside is that the victims would have to have locked themselves in after receiving fatal injuries. If that was the case, why was the room trashed and the mirror smashed? Why was George, who logically must have been the one to lock the door (unless this was a murder/suicide by Gohda), the furthest from it?

And, if the killer was outside the room, who staked them? All that would seem to leave is to suspect one of the victims. But... This doesn't add up. Gohda is far too cowardly to suddenly throw his life away. We've never seen even a hint of him having that kind of resolve. And in Episode 4, when George was tested, he stated he'd kill the entire family (literally 'I was prepared to make the entire family my enemy from the beginning') before he'd raise a hand against Shannon or himself.


... So. Someone outside the room doesn't really seem possible, and none of the victims in the room would (or, in Shannon's case could) have done it.

If the killer can't be outside the room, then logically, he or she must be in it. And if it's not one of the victims, then the only remaining option would appear to be someone hiding in the room. But if the killer is inside the room, did they draw the hand prints on the door ahead of time, or were they there since the previous night...

Either way, the only person I can really match up to a 'hidden killer' scenario is Jessica, which is a hard sell for a number of reasons. I just can't come up with a better idea... Well, I suppose, if George found out that Shannon intended to reject him, he might just...


Another thing that jumps out at me in this game is the use of mirrors. Shannon 'frees' Beatrice by breaking a mirror at the old shrine. They rush to Natsuhi's bedroom looking for a replacement mirror. And when Shannon and co died, the big mirror above the dresser was broken for some reason.

Is there some significance to killing Shannon in front of a mirror?
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