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Old 2010-01-27, 09:35   Link #2321
TeeHee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I think it was said that Maria bragged to the cousins about the letter after she got it, so at least that part seems to be true.
Spoiler for space:
In that case, I propose the following Blue Truth:

Because the parents are 100% unaccounted for from 7:30 PM of the first day until the next morning, it is possible that the six of them were killed, say, before 11:00 PM. Maria, who wants to check up on her rose, is feeling restless and decides to go check up on it at, say, 11:30 PM. There, she encounters "Beatrice", who hands Maria one last envelope. That envelope has the key.

Edit: Or better yet, perhaps the first note was instructions on when and where to meet up with Beatrice to receive one final gift: the envelope with the key, thereby tricking Rosa into thinking that it was the first envelope all along and convincing everyone that this is the doing of a witch.

Last edited by TeeHee; 2010-01-27 at 09:45.
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Old 2010-01-27, 14:14   Link #2322
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Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
My issue with any theories regarding the servants still outside is that the victims would have to have locked themselves in after receiving fatal injuries. If that was the case, why was the room trashed and the mirror smashed? Why was George, who logically must have been the one to lock the door (unless this was a murder/suicide by Gohda), the furthest from it?

And, if the killer was outside the room, who staked them? All that would seem to leave is to suspect one of the victims. But... This doesn't add up. Gohda is far too cowardly to suddenly throw his life away. We've never seen even a hint of him having that kind of resolve. And in Episode 4, when George was tested, he stated he'd kill the entire family (literally 'I was prepared to make the entire family my enemy from the beginning') before he'd raise a hand against Shannon or himself.
You may want to pay special attention to this little tidbit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The Chapel... again:

- The three break into the chapel.
- Gohda requests that Shannon retrieve Natsuhi's key.

Quote:
"Even though Gohda had prodigious skill, he had gotten into trouble, lost his job, and been left out in the streets, when Natsuhi had given him a new life. ...Even though it had just been a casual employment for Natsuhi, Gohda must have felt that it was a turning point in his fate. ..Those around Gohda could see that he felt a special kind of loyalty to Natsuhi. ..So he probably didn't want to lose that feeling, even though she was dead." -Narrator
Heh, it's another one of those scenes where the screen goes blank and you get a sliver of backstory, but you only have a 5% chance of remembering it.

So what does this mean?
1) Natsuhi is Gohda's savior.
2) Natsuhi has been murdered quite grotesquely.
3) Therefore, Gohda may be seeking revenge.

This is one possible explanation:
Gohda, under whatever circumstances, eventually figured out that Shannon was indeed the mastermind, so he plots to kill her in revenge for Natsuhi. George comes to her defense, but Shannon isn't a skilled fighter (maybe), so it's basically a one-on-one battle, and Gohda somehow defeats them both. He searches Shannon's body and finds the stakes. Then he realizes that he is guilty of murder. So to protect his honor, he dirties the door with the blood of his opponents, locks the door, lays out the stakes, and then falls on the last stake to his death.

I might be close, I might be far off. Any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
Another thing that jumps out at me in this game is the use of mirrors. Shannon 'frees' Beatrice by breaking a mirror at the old shrine. They rush to Natsuhi's bedroom looking for a replacement mirror. And when Shannon and co died, the big mirror above the dresser was broken for some reason.

Is there some significance to killing Shannon in front of a mirror?
Maybe I missed it. Did the big mirror actually break? I mean, was it necessarily the big mirror rather than the small mirror?

If it was the big mirror, then it means that there was likely a huge scuffle in the room, as opposed to a clean assasination.
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Old 2010-01-27, 15:03   Link #2323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
This is one possible explanation:
Gohda, under whatever circumstances, eventually figured out that Shannon was indeed the mastermind, so he plots to kill her in revenge for Natsuhi. George comes to her defense, but Shannon isn't a skilled fighter (maybe), so it's basically a one-on-one battle, and Gohda somehow defeats them both. He searches Shannon's body and finds the stakes. Then he realizes that he is guilty of murder. So to protect his honor, he dirties the door with the blood of his opponents, locks the door, lays out the stakes, and then falls on the last stake to his death.

I might be close, I might be far off. Any ideas?
Hmm... in that case, the marks on the door must have been there before they even entered. Well, it's probably the safest assumption anyway, but Genji's obliviousness to the marks makes me think of the theory I've seen once or twice suggesting he's colorblind (or maybe just blind, or close to it). And that hole in Shannon's head is pretty big... so big the stake couldn't even stay put in it (presumably... we don't actually know if she was staked in the first place). I had forgotten Gohda was face down as well.

Well... 'hidden places' are denied with the red, but that isn't a direct denial of someone being hidden. Still, your theory puts Gohda back on the very short list of possible suspects.

... What bothers me most is that the killer not only faithfully carried out the twilights, they also knew which twilights to carry out- the fourth through sixth. Even though Nanjo and Kumasawa were purportedly already dead, the killer in the bedroom knew they were staked according to the seventh and eighth... Further, if the one who killed those two was outside the bedroom, he or she knew Gohda had carried out the fourth through sixth.

Genji claimed that 'last time he saw the corpses' (I'm taking that to mean when they supposedly died in the servants quarters) the stakes weren't there. Though that could easily be a lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
Maybe I missed it. Did the big mirror actually break? I mean, was it necessarily the big mirror rather than the small mirror?

If it was the big mirror, then it means that there was likely a huge scuffle in the room, as opposed to a clean assasination.
Rereading that scene... it wasn't exactly made clear. Battler wonders if Shannon 'saw her own face in the end, in that horribly broken mirror stained with blood'. I've been assuming it was talking about the mirror that's above the dresser, but maybe it's referring to Natsuhi's little mirror.

Hrm. Maybe it's not significant after all.
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Old 2010-01-27, 15:47   Link #2324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
... What bothers me most is that the killer not only faithfully carried out the twilights, they also knew which twilights to carry out- the fourth through sixth. Even though Nanjo and Kumasawa were purportedly already dead, the killer in the bedroom knew they were staked according to the seventh and eighth... Further, if the one who killed those two was outside the bedroom, he or she knew Gohda had carried out the fourth through sixth.

Genji claimed that 'last time he saw the corpses' (I'm taking that to mean when they supposedly died in the servants quarters) the stakes weren't there. Though that could easily be a lie.
Don't forget that Nanjo and Kumasawa weren't necessarily dead at the time of the triple-twilight. It raises the possibility of some sort of ambush. I'll look into it later.

Edit: Wait, that sounds a bit weird. Why would they cover up their deaths only to be ambushed by them? Ugh! Well, I'll see if I can still make the ends meet.
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Old 2010-01-27, 16:42   Link #2325
LyricalAura
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There's also the oddity that Genji didn't say anything to Rosa about the three going to the chapel. He just said that they went to Natsuhi's room, even though he supposedly never saw them after they left.

Hm, is there a possibility that the room key actually got picked up earlier in the day, when the first twilight was discovered?

Regarding the first twilight, I'll see your theories and raise one of my own: Someone unlocked the chapel on October 4th prior to 1pm. The Halloween party was set up by one or more of the servants at that point, and then one of them met with Rosa and Maria and handed over the key, leaving the door unlocked. The adults were able to enter without trouble, and they were killed there sometime around midnight by a person who knew about their meeting, again leaving the door unlocked. In the morning, Genji lied to Rosa about the chapel being locked to maintain the locked room illusion, not realizing that there were dead bodies inside since those weren't a part of the original plan.

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-01-27 at 16:53.
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Old 2010-01-27, 17:13   Link #2326
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
In the morning, Genji lied to Rosa about the chapel being locked to maintain the locked room illusion, not realizing that there were dead bodies inside since those weren't a part of the original plan.
Sorry, but...

"Rosa readied herself and approached, and tried pushing and pulling the knob. ...All she felt was the resistance of the sturdy lock."
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Old 2010-01-27, 17:17   Link #2327
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Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
Sorry, but...

"Rosa readied herself and approached, and tried pushing and pulling the knob. ...All she felt was the resistance of the sturdy lock."
Fantasy scene. The door was already open when Battler got there, and Rosa never said anything about unlocking it herself.
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Old 2010-01-27, 17:43   Link #2328
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Fantasy scene. The door was already open when Battler got there, and Rosa never said anything about unlocking it herself.
Well, if you want to think that, then fine. Since my hypothesis is that Rosa is actually innocent, I will try to make it work out so that what she sees is generally correct, like Battler.

At least with my blue truth about the letters (the one where the letter says "meet me in X at Y PM"), you can say that Beatrice's meeting with Rosa and Maria (except Rosa didn't see Beatrice get the candy from her pocket) and Rosa's checking of the lock can still work out as if they are not fantasy scenes.
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Old 2010-01-27, 18:00   Link #2329
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Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
Well, if you want to think that, then fine. Since my hypothesis is that Rosa is actually innocent, I will try to make it work out so that what she sees is generally correct, like Battler.

At least with my blue truth about the letters (the one where the letter says "meet me in X at Y PM"), you can say that Beatrice's meeting with Rosa and Maria (except Rosa didn't see Beatrice get the candy from her pocket) and Rosa's checking of the lock can still work out as if they are not fantasy scenes.
I think Rosa's innocent too (at least, of this twilight), but not seeing Beato get the candy out of her pocket isn't an excuse for it bursting into a cloud of golden butterflies right in front of her. I'm just working under a different rule about fantasy scenes that would allow that one to be presented, namely that it's consistent with the witness testimony heard by Battler.
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Old 2010-01-27, 19:15   Link #2330
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If Rosa is completely innocent in EP2, why did she claim to have talked to Kinzo? I can't literally recall her exact words (although I don't remember thinking that she meant anything else), but I do remember that she learned something (the alibis of two people that she apparently suspected) that she would have no reason to accept from anyone else.
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Old 2010-01-27, 19:15   Link #2331
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As for the "door wasn't locked" hypothesis:

After they've leaving the chapel, Rosa says "Until I took the key out of Maria's envelope and opened this door, it was definitely locked!! But this key was in the envelope and in Maria's care, right?! And that happened yesterday before noon?!?!"

If Rosa is innocent, why would she lie here?
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Old 2010-01-27, 20:03   Link #2332
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Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
If Rosa is completely innocent in EP2, why did she claim to have talked to Kinzo? I can't literally recall her exact words (although I don't remember thinking that she meant anything else), but I do remember that she learned something (the alibis of two people that she apparently suspected) that she would have no reason to accept from anyone else.
Oh yeah, it's in my map:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
Proposed Alibis:
- Kumasawa and Gohda would never do anything of the sort. And Jessica probably wouldn't invite Kumasawa or Gohda into her room in her state of mind... probably an adolescent instead.
- Shannon and Genji were taking Master's orders. Rosa accepts it. "This is backed up by what I heard from Father. The two of you were in Father's room the whole time, copying and witnessing for him. Father and I can guarantee that." She revisits the thought again, George defends her, then she lets her off the hook.
- Kanon is Rosa's favorite scapegoat. But Battler remembers Gohda explaining that Kanon gave his master key to Jessica to open the guest room. Upon request, Nanjo finds it on her body.
Damn, I think you got me there. The only way she could still be innocent is if she misunderstood the muffled voice behind the door. But then again, I doubt she would confuse that voice of his. **sigh**

But I can't dismiss her vomiting on the floor like that (go ahead, argue it's fantasy). Maybe she's partially guilty, partially innocent. This is screwed up.

In any case, even if she isn't fully innocent, she can still be innocent of the first six murders. I need to go over this a bit more...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I think Rosa's innocent too (at least, of this twilight), but not seeing Beato get the candy out of her pocket isn't an excuse for it bursting into a cloud of golden butterflies right in front of her. I'm just working under a different rule about fantasy scenes that would allow that one to be presented, namely that it's consistent with the witness testimony heard by Battler.
I can argue that perhaps she didn't actually see a cloud of golden butterflies. A toss of glitter? Smoke bomb? Or perhaps an ace-up-the-sleeve exchange?

In any case, with all of the child abuse going on, I doubt Rosa would want Maria believing in this witchcraft. And yet, she reports at the table that she saw Beatrice, and she's freaked out? This doesn't add up well.

Last edited by TeeHee; 2010-01-27 at 20:15.
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Old 2010-01-27, 20:10   Link #2333
Kaisos Erranon
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What if Rosa lied about the door being locked because she thought she might be implicated otherwise? After all, if she was actually in the chapel with the rest of the adults... how can she prove to the others that she isn't the killer?

It's better to pretend that she was never in there at all and that, indeed, there was no way that she could have been.
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Old 2010-01-27, 21:57   Link #2334
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It is pretty hard to say Rosa is innocent in the 1st twilight of game 2. The reason being the chapel key. It's pretty obvious the door was already unlocked when Maria was given the key.

How does the door get locked then in the morning? Rosa simply goes and gets the key in the morning, and locks it. Then, to give herself some cover, she pretends to go get it a 2nd time later when the chapel is discovered (or maybe she put it back after locking the door and gets it again, who knows).

The only way I can think of to deny this is to say that the door was never locked and all of the scenes we are shown regarding that are false. I say that is pretty lame and we have no reason to doubt that the chapel really was locked.

As for Rosa's letter and meeting Beatrice. It seems possible that Rosa may not have actually "met" Beatrice here. Instead, Maria met her, got a new candy and 2 letters. Rosa received a letter and was shown Maria's new candy (which she might be surprised if it is the same kind if she didn't buy that many) and to her, that was like meeting Beatrice. Since we are shown it is clearly a fantasy scene, it is hard to say exactly what happened.

As for what is in the letter, I would guess it is instructions to Rosa from Beatrice. I imagine it says something about Battler, and also probably has the location of the 2 extra gold bars we know about. Rosa probably becomes a killer in the 1st twilight because of this. Perhaps even an accidental killer. She may have been told drug her siblings and then lock them in the chapel. As she left to go get the key in the morning (sometime past 12:01AM), perhaps someone snuck in and gutted her siblings. Rosa just comes and locks the door without looking inside. This may explain why Rosa gets sick when she sees the real thing.
I still think Rosa killing them is more likely, though.
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Old 2010-01-27, 22:18   Link #2335
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Why would Rosa kill her siblings with drugs/poison, and why would she bother to arrange them in such a fashion?

It's too cold-blooded for Rosa. She's not very logical and is very short-tempered. If she killed someone, it would be in the heat of the moment and probably with a gun or some other kind of available weapon. Futhermore, if she was going to dispose of the body, she'd probably chuck it into the ocean rather than GUT IT AND STUFF IT FULL OF CANDY.
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Old 2010-01-27, 23:50   Link #2336
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I've said this before, but even if you believe someone is innocent, it is entirely possible for them to be a killer. If Rosa (or Genji) is NOT the killer in the First Twilight, they can still kill someone in self-defense, or out of an earnest (or even irrational) suspicion. Therefore, you can argue that Rosa suspected she was being set up to framed and took steps to keep herself safe (faking the chapel lock, getting only one gun for herself, collecting the keys) while seeking out the real killer. If we posit that the killer is one of the other people on the island (excluding the six FT victims), then the fact that everyone else turned up dead except Rosa, Maria, Battler, and Genji means that the killer MUST have been killed by an innocent party, unless we believe that Rosa or Genji was the primary murderer. But assume they aren't and look at what happens: At the end of episode 2, no one who is still alive is a murderer (or THE murderer, anyway).

Regarding Genji's eyesight: The magic scene in ep2 could perhaps be a hint. He seems to react with unimaginable speed and senses, but is it possibly a hint that Genji operates primarily through hearing? This would make it easy for him to get around (he has the layout of the mansion memorized and can probably see a little bit), make him capable of recognizing people reasonably enough, make him more perceptive to sound than other characters might anticipate (giving him certain advantages), but less perceptive to seeing something (such as a culprit sneaking right past him silently, or at a distance).

This should be easy to prove: Does Genji ever behave in a manner which suggests he cannot recognize someone or something before hearing them speak? Does he ever appear to Battler WITHOUT announcing his presence first? Does anything suggest Genji might have limited eyesight, such as the way he behaves or how he reacts to the appearance of a murderer or murder scene or something? And likewise for any evidence that his eyesight is fine.
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Old 2010-01-27, 23:54   Link #2337
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Are there any other theories out there regarding the chapel that work? So far, we have:

1) "Unlocked Chapel" Theory. (Incompatible with unlocking scene.)
2) "Additional Envelope" Theory. (Compatible with unlocking scene.)

(Forget the small bombs.)

Is that it? Do we have any other ideas? Maybe something off-the-wall-but-it-could-work?

Last edited by TeeHee; 2010-01-28 at 00:47.
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Old 2010-01-28, 00:14   Link #2338
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Regarding Genji's eyesight: The magic scene in ep2 could perhaps be a hint. He seems to react with unimaginable speed and senses, but is it possibly a hint that Genji operates primarily through hearing? This would make it easy for him to get around (he has the layout of the mansion memorized and can probably see a little bit), make him capable of recognizing people reasonably enough, make him more perceptive to sound than other characters might anticipate (giving him certain advantages), but less perceptive to seeing something (such as a culprit sneaking right past him silently, or at a distance).

This should be easy to prove: Does Genji ever behave in a manner which suggests he cannot recognize someone or something before hearing them speak? Does he ever appear to Battler WITHOUT announcing his presence first? Does anything suggest Genji might have limited eyesight, such as the way he behaves or how he reacts to the appearance of a murderer or murder scene or something? And likewise for any evidence that his eyesight is fine.
Yes, and with Battler in the room.

Episode 1:
Quote:
[After seeing the scribble on the shed]
Narrator: "Genji remembered that he had just recently seen another scribble, and that it too had been made with a strange, dark-red substance of the same color as this...

".........That must have been.... that's right, he had seen it on the door to Natsuhi's room..."

[a little later]

"Nanjo sat on a sofa by himself, passing the time by reading quietly. They heard hurried footsteps coming from the hallway. [...] Genji was the one who returned. It was very rare for Genji, who considered being out of breath a violation of a servant's virtues, to be gasping for air. [etc] When Genji noticed Nanjo looking at him, he gave a small, silent bow and quickly approached him."

Genji: "....Doctor Nanjo, my apologies. Please, come with me, quickly."
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Old 2010-01-28, 00:27   Link #2339
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The additional envelope is really irrelevant to the chapel. It just provides a motive and possibly means. It makes the most sense to me that Rosa is being manipulated in game 2 and it fits with several scenes that hint at such.

Later in game 2, we have the scene where Rosa, Maria, and Battler are returning to the parlor while it was locked the whole time and only Rosa has all the keys. How does the letter appear on the table? Rosa placing it there is the most likely scenario. She says Maria didn't do it. Genji couldn't have gotten in the locked room. The only other option is that someone is hiding in the room.

The problem with hiding is that people are the most dead in game 2 out of any other game. The only deaths that are maybe questionable are Jessica (though Battler checks her out some), Kanon (via his furniture-self dying and him assuming his real name), and... that's it. Even if others were faking death, they still couldn't get in the room.

The likeliest scenario to me is that Rosa placed the letter. But why did she do it? Probably because she was trying to get something out of Battler. After she fails and they split up, she is in the chapel asking for Beatrice.

I think the events of Natsuhi's room give us a big hint. First, the door and windows were locked from the inside. This means only George, Shannon, Gohda, and possibly hidden person X (even though there is no hidden place in red).

I can imagine a couple ways it could play out, but the situation seems to point to Gohda being stabbed to death, George being stabbed, and then him shooting Shannon. It ends with George locking the door and waiting for help (Genji heard the gunshot and finds him and goes looking for Nanjo?), but he bleeds out.
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Old 2010-01-28, 00:37   Link #2340
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The additional envelope is really irrelevant to the chapel.
Spoiler for space:
Irrelevant? Sorry, I was too vague. I was referring to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
In that case, I propose the following Blue Truth:

Because the parents are 100% unaccounted for from 7:30 PM of the first day until the next morning, it is possible that the six of them were killed, say, before 11:00 PM. Maria, who wants to check up on her rose, is feeling restless and decides to go check up on it at, say, 11:30 PM. There, she encounters "Beatrice", who hands Maria one last envelope. That envelope has the key.

Edit: Or better yet, perhaps the first note was instructions on when and where to meet up with Beatrice to receive one final gift: the envelope with the key, thereby tricking Rosa into thinking that it was the first envelope all along and convincing everyone that this is the doing of a witch.
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