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Old 2010-01-30, 16:59   Link #921
Creangeru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revan5 View Post
[...]
So yes, a Dragonkin would SEEM unstoppable, but I suspect with the building of massive fortifications, heavy artillery, the heavy use of crossbows, and perhaps even flaming grenades, they'd eventually be brought down. They may be monsters, but clearly, if superhuman girls with big swords like the Ghosts can kill Awakened Number 2s like Agatha, then it should be possible to bring down a Dragonkin by ordinary soldiers. Just expect a ton of casualties in the process though...

Think about it this way, does anyone really think Agatha could stop a poisoned ballista bolt fired at high speed at her? Make it big and fast enough, and no matter what she does it'll smash through her defenses. In Rabona's case, the issue is they're throwing spears when they should be firing crossbow bolts and ballistas at her.
I kind of understand your point about the grenades and the ballistae, but don't forget the regenerative powers of those ABs. Isley regenerated his whole stomach, cut by Helen, and I absolutely object your point of using these weapons to actually hit(!) someone this fast. Do you still remember how fast Clare was after awakening her legs during her attempt to save Miria from being killed by Rigardo?
Yes, he did lose sight of her, but a being able to move that fast doesn't need to pay any attention to slow reloading weapons like crossbows or ballistae.
A ton of casualties? More like half of the army and then it will just regenerate, because there are so many bodies ripe for eviscerating and eating a happy menu of guts, guts and a lot more guts.

And my last but not least point , don't forget why the Claymores use Claymores. The only weapon hard enough to penetrate the skin of such hardy foes. You can make a rod strong, fast and big, but it would be stationary. Making it easily evadable and a large icon like an exclamation mark saying: "Please attack our weapon here, o mighty adversary. It is our only chance against you."
We are still speaking about the time span of bringing the Dragonkins out and before the enemy could react, or aren't we?
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Old 2010-01-30, 17:00   Link #922
Nixl
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Am I the only one that thought of Priscilla as remotely similar to Tetsuo from Akira (towards the end of the movie)? The moment her body exploded into a formless mass against Isley. Meh

A weird comparison (and probably off topic) on my part.
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Old 2010-01-30, 17:03   Link #923
Gooral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
(...)Clare was panicking from the moment Priscilla came after Teresa again while at +70%. She jolted in fear... hid behind Teresa and was shuddering in fear. (...)
Riful jolted in fear when she met Priscilla in human form so don't be surprised that a child was afraid of 80% Priscilla and then awakened Priscilla. Like I said, Priscilla was an unimaginable monster.
Quote:
Plus if you don't believe that she was fearful of facing the world without Teresa... well you'd just be wrong.
. Wow, what an argumentation. Anyway I agree that she was afraid to lose Teresa but that doesn't make her a coward which is what you imply. I see I have to underline and bold some parts of my response so that you wouldn't ignore it that easily (and adding images would be a good idea also).
Clare was a coward ?! Like when she didn't fear Teresa even when she was kicked by her (and I remind you that village elder pissed himself after just seeing a claymore) or when she tried to defend Teresa from a bandit? As for Clare being paralysed by fear when Priscilla awakened, she would have to be insane to not be. She was a defenceless kid that encountered an unimaginable monster while losing the dearest person at the same time. I wouldn't call that cowardice but natural reaction of fear. What else she could do besides crying? Attack Priscilla?

If Clare was a coward then what would you call Helen? Or Rachel? Or Audrey?Or even Miria? I remind you that we're comparing trained warriors to a girl.
So in your opinion Raki was a coward too, huh?

Last edited by Gooral; 2010-01-31 at 02:00.
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Old 2010-01-30, 17:10   Link #924
Creangeru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Riful jolted in fear when she met Priscilla in human form so don't be surprised that a child was afraid of 80% Priscilla and then awakened Priscilla. Like I said, Priscilla was an unimaginable monster.
[...]
Priscilla was an unimaginable monster? And in which way do you address her now? Raki's little Chihuahua? She has walked a long unhumanly way to become what she is now, or at least what her current state of mind is in now.
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Old 2010-01-30, 17:17   Link #925
irvinethearcher
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clare was many things but not a coward.
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Old 2010-01-30, 17:19   Link #926
Gooral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creangeru View Post
Priscilla was an unimaginable monster? And in which way do you address her now? Raki's little Chihuahua? She has walked a long unhumanly way to become what she is now, or at least what her current state of mind is in now.
OK, I'll use your retarded way of posting. You're saying she wasn't?

You've taken it out of context, I was using the past tense because I was talking about the past and I did not say that she's not a monster anymore.
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Old 2010-01-30, 17:20   Link #927
revan5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creangeru View Post
I kind of understand your point about the grenades and the ballistae, but don't forget the regenerative powers of those ABs. Isley regenerated his whole stomach, cut by Helen, and I absolutely object your point of using these weapons to actually hit(!) someone this fast. Do you still remember how fast Clare was after awakening her legs during her attempt to save Miria from being killed by Rigardo?
Yes, he did lose sight of her, but a being able to move that fast doesn't need to pay any attention to slow reloading weapons like crossbows or ballistae.
A ton of casualties? More like half of the army and then it will just regenerate, because there are so many bodies ripe for eviscerating and eating a happy menu of guts, guts and a lot more guts.

And my last but not least point , don't forget why the Claymores use Claymores. The only weapon hard enough to penetrate the skin of such hardy foes. You can make a rod strong, fast and big, but it would be stationary. Making it easily evadable and a large icon like an exclamation mark saying: "Please attack our weapon here, o mighty adversary. It is our only chance against you."
We are still speaking about the time span of bringing the Dragonkins out and before the enemy could react, or aren't we?
Well Creangeru, this is where super-soldiers and Dragonkin come in. They allow you to match these foes, and I would imagine the weapons I'm talking about are complementary. Now obviously, certain Awakened will be much more effective against humans (ex. Rigardo) than say Agatha. The key is speed like you said.

However, I'm wondering if you considered the possibility of crossbow bolts made out of the same forged metal from which claymores are made? If you shot Isley with those, don't you think they'd have some effect? I realize he might be able to regenerate, but around what? How do you regenerate when the weapon's stuck in you? If I were wanting to stop Isley with an army of humans, I'd have a bunch of pikemen, and back them up with an army of crossbowmen. If possible, I'd lace their metal bolts with poison. I'd like to see any Awakened "regenerate" when all it does is spread the poison faster!

The key here I think is we need to consider why Dragonkin and Awakened on their own are not the sole combatants. If you were a general in this war, you'd want your human soldiers to have a counter to Dragonkin/Awakened if yours were to run off or die. So what then, Creangeru, would you use?
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Last edited by revan5; 2010-01-30 at 17:34.
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Old 2010-01-30, 17:29   Link #928
Creangeru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
OK, I'll use your retarded way of posting. You're saying she wasn't?

You've taken it out of context, I was using the past tense because I was talking about the past and I did not say that she's not a monster anymore.
Nice of you calling my way of posting retarded. I let this pass without a comment...

Well if you are talking about the past you are implying it is already over, isn't it? But her monster-like powers are still there even today. I was not talking about right or wrong, but about her past powers and her present powers.
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Old 2010-01-30, 17:41   Link #929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Riful jolted in fear when she met Priscilla in human form so don't be surprised that a child was afraid of 80% Priscilla and then awakened Priscilla. Like I said, Priscilla was an unimaginable monster.
But he too, like Clare, got over his fear. Many others still haven't. Raki has on several occasions risked everything and stood his ground knowing the results. That is likely a reason why Clare likes him so much. He cast aside his fear, ran to her and open his soul to her and confessed his fear and gratitude, then has repeatedly risked everything for her (several times in Rabona and with Ophelia).

My point being both Clare and Raki have gotten over there fears. Or at least don't let it effect their actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
. Wow, what an argumentation. Anyway I agree that she was afraid to lose Teresa but that doesn't make her a coward which is what you imply. I see I have to underline and bold some parts of my response so that you wouldn't ignore it that easily (and adding images would be a good idea also).
Clare was a coward ?! Like when she didn't fear Teresa even when she was kicked by her (and I remind you that village elder pissed himself after just seeing a claymore) or when she tried to defend Teresa from a bandit? As for Clare being paralysed by fear when Priscilla awakened, she would have to be insane to not be. She was a defenceless kid that encountered an unimaginable monster while losing the dearest person at the same time. I wouldn't call that cowardice but natural reaction of fear. What else she could do besides crying? Attack Priscilla?

If Clare was a coward then what would you call Helen? Or Rachel? Or even Miria? I remind you that we're comparing trained warriors to a girl.
I don't mean to call Clare a coward... as in that was all she was back them. I meant more that she was a coward for one event in her life, as healthy as being a coward in that situation was. She was a very strong willed abused child but as strong willed as she was she knew when things where helpless and panicked, not wanting it to happen again. I think she views herself as a coward that day... and hates herself for it with a survivors guilt. To her it doesn't seem matter what she did just that she hates herself for doing nothing and wishes she did something to change it all and make it "right".

Oh, and being a coward for one moment in one's life doesn't make them a coward. My point was that she was scared back then, hates herself for it, and has gotten over being scared anymore (she's seen the worst it can get and now it won't phase her again). Unlike most defensive warriors who never have escaped there fear. Your just nit picking my point and wording. She was very scared back then... so what if the way I worded it was a more extreme point of view on the matter. I made my point and you yours lets move on.

As to that quote of mine that you laughed at... it was only half my point... so thanks for taking it out of context. Whatever though... your comment was funny. More seriously the other half of that point was about all abused children desiring protection. Which is why the first half was true. I was on the phone multitasking at the time... apparently not too well. I worded it kinda bad looking back at it.

As to Helen... she's an idiot who only realizes how much she's messed up once it's too late. Then is like Oh... F***! Thankfully Miria, Clare, and Deneve are there for her. Rachel didn't know what hit her... so I fail to see the cowardice action you are referring too. Miria only fear was that her death wasn't going to be quick and she was help less... at least she tried to struggle before the AB's tong pierced her gut. That's not cowardliness since she choose to risk herself to save everyone. She had every right to fear being tortured to death but it wasn't cowardliness... especially since there is a chance she could awaken if he went really slowly (though we didn't know that at the time). (I wounder if he would have let her... doubt it though (even based on how hot she is ). She'd likely be far stronger than him and therefore a threat.)
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Old 2010-01-30, 17:50   Link #930
Creangeru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revan5 View Post
Well Creangeru, this is where super-soldiers and Dragonkin come in. They allow you to match these foes, and I would imagine the weapons I'm talking about are complementary. Now obviously, certain Awakened will be much more effective against humans (ex. Rigardo) than say Agatha. The key is speed like you said.

However, I'm wondering if you considered the possibility of crossbow bolts made out of the same forged metal from which claymores are made? If you shot Isley with those, don't you think they'd have some effect? I realize he might be able to regenerate, but around what? How do you regenerate when the weapon's stuck in you? If I were wanting to stop Isley with an army of humans, I'd have a bunch of pikemen, and back them up with an army of crossbowmen. If possible, I'd lace their metal bolts with poison. I'd like to see any Awakened "regenerate" when all it does is spread the poison faster!

The key here I think is we need to consider why Dragonkin and Awakened on their own are not the sole combatants. If you were a general in this war, you'd want your human soldiers to have a counter to Dragonkin/Awakened if yours were to run off or die. So what then, Creangeru, would you use?
This exactly is, what I'm trying to point out. How were they able to survive that long? If we look at our current world and all people divided into two teams would be gathered in Africa in one place to battle against each other (with medieval weapons), how fast are we able to reproduce to let at least 7 years pass without wiping humanity out?
There are too many casualties and two many super weapons to make a stalemate. Looking at the pictures when Miria explains the whole battle, we see one AB fighting with three Dragonkins and the footmen? They fight as if it were nothing to fight beside a 30 or 100 feet tall monster. The casualties from friendly fire must be greater than the casualties from the actual war.
But to get back to your question what I would use I just don't know. And it is exactly this little explanation gap that annoys me. Between quickly taking control of the battle and quickly trying to invent new weapons there must be time to obliterate the enemy. No matter how fast you breed your ABs, it isn't fast enough in a battle against the Dragonkins.

Last edited by Creangeru; 2010-01-30 at 18:18.
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Old 2010-01-30, 20:35   Link #931
Ulquihorror
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I think she meant Okham's razor.
It is basically a principle that can be applied in many domains of science and it says something about simpler methods being the best.

I will need to check my philosophy notes >__>


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Old 2010-01-30, 20:41   Link #932
irvinethearcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulquihorror View Post
I think she meant Okham's razor.
It is basically a principle that can be applied in many domains of science and it says something about simpler methods being the best.

I will need to check my philosophy notes >__>


Where is the new chapter?
I think it is about making as less assumptions as possible.
but if we talk here that way we can almost stop talking because for a fruitful discussion we have to make assumptions and violate ockham's razor.
The trick is IMO not to violate it too much and base theories on sources of the manga.

An example for an IMO far fetched speculation is that raki is an DoD and therefore can withstand the parasites.
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Old 2010-01-30, 21:41   Link #933
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Quote:
An example for an IMO far fetched speculation is that raki is an DoD and therefore can withstand the parasites.
I agree; it sounds interesting, but then again, we have absolutely no evidence supporting it whatsoever.
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Old 2010-01-30, 21:50   Link #934
revan5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creangeru View Post
This exactly is, what I'm trying to point out. How were they able to survive that long? If we look at our current world and all people divided into two teams would be gathered in Africa in one place to battle against each other (with medieval weapons), how fast are we able to reproduce to let at least 7 years pass without wiping humanity out?
There are too many casualties and two many super weapons to make a stalemate. Looking at the pictures when Miria explains the whole battle, we see one AB fighting with three Dragonkins and the footmen? They fight as if it were nothing to fight beside a 30 or 100 feet tall monster. The casualties from friendly fire must be greater than the casualties from the actual war.
But to get back to your question what I would use I just don't know. And it is exactly this little explanation gap that annoys me. Between quickly taking control of the battle and quickly trying to invent new weapons there must be time to obliterate the enemy. No matter how fast you breed your ABs, it isn't fast enough in a battle against the Dragonkins.
Ah, but you've forgotten something crucial: scale. Take Russia for instance. Invasions of Russia, all excepting those from the east, have been complete failures. Those from the east were only partially successful, and eventually Russia defeated its would-be conquerors centuries later. What I guess is stalemating the conflict besides Awakened Beings is the fact that it is two groups of nations fighting for worldwide dominance. Think about it. How many times have people actually succeeded in that? NEVER.

The reason why is distances. Eventually the very same fast advances that were lauded originally lead to overextension and opportunities at counterattacks. It's what did in the Nazis against the Soviet Union. In this case though, with the presence of the Dragonkin, their alliance is strong enough to withstand most of those counterattacks. But if controllable awakened beings become a possibility, then all hell and uncertainty break out. Conquering the world, even with these relative "superweapons", is going to be a long, hard slog. I am therefore not shocked that the Organization could merely move its research elsewhere when backed by the 2nd most powerful alliance of countries on the planet.

Nor am I surprised that the Dragonkin are probably not able to completely win out easily. Here's what I pictured. The early war goes badly for the Organization's alliance, so what do you do to stop an enormous monster like Dragonkin? You "scorch the earth". Yes, you purposely wipe out all their possible food supplies along all lines of advance. Therefore, in order to attack, they must bring lots of slow-moving food with them, allowing the alliance to be able to intercept them.

If I had a guess as to how they stopped them after the first couple of disastrous engagements, the "scorched earth policy" tops my list. If it worked against Napoleon and Hiter, why not in medieval warfare against hungry monsters? After all, it's attacking them where they're most vulnerable...their food supply!
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Old 2010-01-30, 22:01   Link #935
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They could also be a "cold war" effect going on the Claymore world with both sides afraid to commit to a full scale war in fear that what would be left afterwards wouldn't be worth fighting for.
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Old 2010-01-30, 22:41   Link #936
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you guys discussing how the humans survived for so long against the dragonkin forget that there originally were many more camps than just the two sides of humans vs dragonkin. Possibly the dragonkin had vendetta against each other, or the territory of one dragonkin clan was blocking another's. Quite possibly the dragonkin were keeping each other in check, and never really considered humans as serious foes until they came up with the mass production of AB. Miria said that the war on the mainland eventually became humans vs dragonkin, not that it started that way.
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Old 2010-01-30, 23:12   Link #937
irvinethearcher
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Perhaps those dragons don't help them that easy. Perhaps the other side is dependent on the whims of those creatures like isley was dependent on priscilla's whims and couldn't control her like a weapon.
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Old 2010-01-30, 23:18   Link #938
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Originally Posted by Ulquihorror View Post
I think she meant Okham's razor.
It is basically a principle that can be applied in many domains of science and it says something about simpler methods being the best.
Remark the first: "he," despite the avatar.

Remark the second: "Occam's" (or "Ockham's") is correct.

Remark the third: since apparently the principle of Occam's razor is an obscure reference (which boggles me), I'll tender an explanation.

In simple terms, it runs as follows: "all other things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best." In more detail, as it applies to inductive logic, it suggests that when looking for an explanation for an issue, one should discard facets of that explanation which are not of necessity required. Basically, if you have two competing hypotheses which both purport to explain some issue, but one of them contains some piece of extra speculation external to the situation at hand, then the other is likely the better solution.

As it applies to Priscilla, there are three viable hypotheses as I see them. They run as follows:

First, following the known connection between defensive type warriors and regeneration abilities, we examine Priscilla's regeneration capability, note that it by far exceeds that of any other being we have met, and conclude that Priscilla must have been a defensive type, even if this means that we must discard more tenuous evidence to the contrary regarding her personality. (We have so little actual contact with pre-awakened Priscilla's personality that basically the only thing we have to go on in this regard is the tidbit about her killing the youma that ate her father. Post-awakened Priscilla's personality presents other obvious difficulties.)

The second hypothesis says that even though offensive warriors cannot regenerate, they gain that ability after awakening, albeit not to the extent evidenced by defensive ABs. Thus, the insane regeneration exhibited by Priscilla is simply an artifact of her overwhelming strength, despite the fact that she is an offensive type.

In addition to failing Occam's razor by adding an unneeded explanation into the mix, this theory has problems of its own. First and foremost, her aforementioned "insane strength" is primarily demonstrated by her regeneration capability itself. Remember the attack she used to defeat Isley. (It also appears to be the same move she used to eat Riful.) It is basically an extension of her regenerative capacity itself, and it is by all appearances her primary attack. Second, regeneration capacity in offensive warriors appears to be independent of their overall strength. Third, if she is an offensive type and this hypothesis holds, then regeneration is one of her lesser abilities. If that is so, she has yet to exhibit a greater.

The third hypothesis is slightly different. It says that although Priscilla is an offensive type and should thus be relatively poor at regeneration, she sidestepped this limitation by developing her regeneration as an offensive attack. This explanation avoids the flaws of the second hypothesis, but it fails Occam's razor in a big way by positing an unnecessary external claim for which there is zero independent supporting evidence. The only benefit this explanation has over the first is that we don't need to discount the small bit we know about her pre-awakening personality; however, as I mentioned above, that evidence is tenuous at best.

Lastly, regarding personality, I'll note the following: outmatched and missing an arm, our dear protagonist attacked her pursuer by chopping down trees; outmatched but otherwise unharmed, our poor antagonist cowered at her foe's feet paralyzed with fear thinking "I don't want to die."

Last edited by Aimless; 2010-01-30 at 23:37.
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Old 2010-01-31, 00:58   Link #939
theevilanimal
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we need the new chapter asap!
or I shall send some nude claymore amazons abyssal eaters to Yagi's home
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Old 2010-01-31, 03:23   Link #940
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I need spoilers....
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