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Old 2010-01-08, 14:32   Link #6621
SoldierOfDarkness
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Peace under the sword, particularly Charles' sword, isn't peace, it's tyranny. Lelouch was the same, only intentionally so and he removed himself from power.
You misunderstand.

I said Britannia had the potential to do good, it just needed someone in charge that had the ability to do it.

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Which serves to reinforce the point. Britannia was a terribly racist, aggressively expansionist country. To claim that they were in any way better (except militarily) than either power is just deluded.
No one is, I'm just pointing out that they all had their bad points while the other one has little knowledge to derive from

Though I question Britannia prior to Charles because as one UFN pointed out, she said that should puts all blame on "Charles" and not Britannia itself. And as Schenizeil found out, the real reason behind Charles' aggressive expanionist policy was to aquire those ruins which makes me wonder what Britannia in general would've been before.
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Old 2010-01-08, 14:48   Link #6622
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
You misunderstand.

I said Britannia had the potential to do good, it just needed someone in charge that had the ability to do it.
Even someone in charge would have to go through an absolute mess of red tape, and Lelouch had to pretty much overthrow the entire government just to consolidate his power and open the door for Nunnally. There's the potential to do good, but it's a long way off.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Though I question Britannia prior to Charles because as one UFN pointed out, she said that should puts all blame on "Charles" and not Britannia itself. And as Schenizeil found out, the real reason behind Charles' aggressive expanionist policy was to aquire those ruins which makes me wonder what Britannia in general would've been before.
It was supposedly not quite so bad before, but it's always been pretty agressive according to the history.
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Old 2010-01-08, 18:01   Link #6623
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Japan before Britannia conquered it really wasn't that much better. They tried to use their Sakuradite to one up the other countries and the Japanese people including a young Kaguya and Suzaku were pretty assholish to non Japanese people. Even Kallen as a half Britannian was given a hard time by the full Japanese people until it was taken over and they accepted whoever they could get.

So really in the end every country was trying to get on up on others and racist to anyone from other countries. I guess Geass is really is a grey and grey world.
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Old 2010-01-08, 19:48   Link #6624
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And Britannia isn't as bad with the craphole ghettos they make no effort to maintain? The only difference between China and Britannia is that Britannia doesn't acknowledge the numbers as real people, while China does and just doesn't feed them.
The Chinese government compared their people to ants in S2. The thing is they treated EVERYONE as shit, whereas Britannia at least gave Britannians privileges...Anyways, how can Britannia maintain the ghetto when it's full of terrorists? In S2 after the place is cleared they begin to rebuild some of them, at least Shinjuku.

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Pure exaggeration. It strong-armed them into backing of military by having a stranglehold on sakuradite and a standing army that could have resisted any conventional invasion. Knightmares simply tipped the balance.
This is wrong, Knightmares only made the battle a pushover,it was over in weeks as opposed to the months it would've taken to take over Japan without Knightmares.
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Old 2010-01-08, 19:55   Link #6625
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
The Chinese government compared their people to ants in S2. The thing is they treated EVERYONE as shit, whereas Britannia at least gave Britannians privileges...Anyways, how can Britannia maintain the ghetto when it's full of terrorists? In S2 after the place is cleared they begin to rebuild some of them, at least Shinjuku.
They could have redeveloped the ghettos well before that. They chose not to until half the city had been wrecked by a huge insurgency.

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This is wrong, Knightmares only made the battle a pushover,it was over in weeks as opposed to the months it would've taken to take over Japan without Knightmares.
It would have taken much longer than months. More like years. With conventional arms, they'd have never rooted out all the Japanese forces. Knightmares made that easy.
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Old 2010-01-08, 20:33   Link #6626
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
The Chinese government compared their people to ants in S2. The thing is they treated EVERYONE as shit, whereas Britannia at least gave Britannians privileges...Anyways, how can Britannia maintain the ghetto when it's full of terrorists? In S2 after the place is cleared they begin to rebuild some of them, at least Shinjuku.
Actually, Nunally had to specifically ask if the Japanese were going to be negatively impacted by the rebuilding, and even then, Rohmeyer tried to lie that they would be fine. It is all but certain that the rebuilt neighbourhoods would only see occupation by Britannians, with the Japanese being pushed further and further out into the ghettos. Basically like Eminent Domain laws, sans the compensation.
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Old 2010-01-08, 21:41   Link #6627
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It would have taken much longer than months. More like years. With conventional arms, they'd have never rooted out all the Japanese forces. Knightmares made that easy.
No actually had the war gone longer the Chinese and EEU would've entered the fray to carve up Japan for their own purposes, essentially putting Japan into an all-out free-for-all brawl which was pointed out by Lelouch.

The only reason why Japan fell quickly was because Suzaku panicked and killed his pop which caused them to surrender. Unfortunately for Britannia, this left a lot of larger than usual numbers for them to take care of which formed into strong insurgencies.

None of the other Areas had that problem because they usually fought to the last and get wiped out pretty badly.

As for the knightmares, they were only effective for ground operations meaning that the Britannians were able to establish aerial and naval supremancy in order to land their ground forces for the mop-up.
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Old 2010-01-08, 22:05   Link #6628
morbosfist
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No actually had the war gone longer the Chinese and EEU would've entered the fray to carve up Japan for their own purposes, essentially putting Japan into an all-out free-for-all brawl which was pointed out by Lelouch.
That was with the consideration that Knightmares were in play. It wouldn't have happened in conventional warfare, because they wouldn't have so easily crushed the Japanese forces.

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As for the knightmares, they were only effective for ground operations meaning that the Britannians were able to establish aerial and naval supremancy in order to land their ground forces for the mop-up.
Patently untrue. It is not necessary to completely establish aerial and naval superiority to land ground troops. A quick drop would be enough to get the Knightmares in, then they tear up the beach defenses. Knightmares completely altered the balance of power. They would not have been nearly as successful in a regular conflict.
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Old 2010-01-08, 22:49   Link #6629
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Japan is an island, and as such it would've been pretty easy for Britannia to blockade it and starve it into submission. The massive Britannian navy would've had no problem cutting off all shipping routes into and from Japan. Meanwhile the airforce indiscriminately carpet bombs all major cities. Starvation and massive casualties would break the people's will to resist, while the blockade would starve the Japanese war effort. Sure they have tons of sakuradite, but no raw materials to make tanks and planes etc.

This is a fact, how do I know? Real life, it worked for the US, why wouldn't work for Britannia which has access to a lot more manpower, and resources?
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Old 2010-01-08, 23:09   Link #6630
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Japan is an island, and as such it would've been pretty easy for Britannia to blockade it and starve it into submission. The massive Britannian navy would've had no problem cutting off all shipping routes into and from Japan. Meanwhile the airforce indiscriminately carpet bombs all major cities. Starvation and massive casualties would break the people's will to resist, while the blockade would starve the Japanese war effort. Sure they have tons of sakuradite, but no raw materials to make tanks and planes etc.

This is a fact, how do I know? Real life, it worked for the US, why wouldn't work for Britannia which has access to a lot more manpower, and resources?
The US had a somewhat different situation with Japan in real life. Also note that, despite all the bombings, it took two nukes to get them to realize defeat.

The Chinese Federation might not take it as well. It also depends on their standing military and ability to resist. Obviously they couldn't starve the country out, or just didn't try. Instead they got Knightmares and invaded.
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Old 2010-01-09, 04:30   Link #6631
bladeofdarkness
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as much as i like this discussion and wish to see it continue
i have to point out that there is pretty much no mention at all of lelouch in it
and hence this may not be the right thread for it
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Old 2010-01-11, 02:33   Link #6632
Commander 598
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Japan didn't have an iron-fisted ruler, just a prime minister who people followed.
He also liked to wear military uniforms, hang out with his aristocratic and military supporters, and come up with hair brained schemes to get out of the political hole he dug himself into. Just because he was a Prime Minister doesn't mean the government was actually very democratic, Hitler was an elected chancellor after all and according to some sources Prince Schniezel also held the position of Britannia's PM/Chancellor.

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Sure it was. You become an Honorary Britannian, you still get treated like shit but at least you get a nice place to live for the trouble. Becoming full Britannian citizens isn't possible for Numbers.
However in becoming an Honorary Britannian you technically cease to be a Number, legally that is, which is where I assume that it would probably open doors such as the children of Honorary Britannians becoming Britannians because it's a matter of cultural assimilation.

When I talk about Roman citizenship in comparison I'm reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_citizenship

I don't know how accurate it really is.

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It was mafia hangout, but Britannian agents were sitting in the middle of the damn thing and didn't give a shit, so it still counts.
And this somehow makes them worse than the NSA/CIA?

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The Romans gave full citizenship rights and for the most part Romans are not really that concerned about maintaining their "purity" as a race or group as the Britannians seem to be.
If Britannians were really concerned about racial "purity" Villeta Nu wouldn't have held a noble title, Suzaku Kururgi wouldn't have been promoted into the Emperor's personal unit of agents, and Rakshata wouldn't have been gone to the Imperial Academy/University/whatever. Moreover if that were the case I doubt literal Non-honorary Britannian Numbers would be wandering all over the damn settlement with nary a glance from anyone.

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Did any Britannian so much as bat an eyebrow at the thought of razing Shinjuku Ghetto or slaughtering the people in the SAZ?
I doubt any more than anyone in the real world. When presented with such a situation the response for most is likely to be to fight (In the case of soldiers) or flee (In the case of civilians) then ask questions later, and they aren't going to fight their buddies. I'm sure there's some psychological experiment about this somewhere. Shinjuku was thoroughly covered up, Saitama was a legitimate police action, and any thoughts about SAZ were probably killed and buried under the rubble of a collapsed settlement before they could be heard.

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Even someone in charge would have to go through an absolute mess of red tape, and Lelouch had to pretty much overthrow the entire government just to consolidate his power and open the door for Nunnally. There's the potential to do good, but it's a long way off.
"Red Tape" is only a concern when you aren't in a dictatorship, then you can just drag the offending adhesive out back and give it the "Stalin special".

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The Chinese Federation might not take it as well. It also depends on their standing military and ability to resist. Obviously they couldn't starve the country out, or just didn't try. Instead they got Knightmares and invaded.
As I recall, the Invasion [and subsequent annexation of] Japan was on the tail end of the Second Pacific War which was basically a World War between all the major factions and Japan ergo, they were already not being taken very well by the Chinese.

Oh yeah, what about NAC? What were they spending all their loads of money on?


Of course I think we're all mostly just debating our assumptions on how things might be as very few of them were ever stated anywhere like the citizenship thing but are probably a fairly logical conclusion depending on your view of things.


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as much as i like this discussion and wish to see it continue
i have to point out that there is pretty much no mention at all of lelouch in it
and hence this may not be the right thread for it
Of course, but I don't like untimely killed discussions either.
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Old 2010-01-11, 10:57   Link #6633
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Commander 598 View Post
He also liked to wear military uniforms, hang out with his aristocratic and military supporters, and come up with hair brained schemes to get out of the political hole he dug himself into. Just because he was a Prime Minister doesn't mean the government was actually very democratic, Hitler was an elected chancellor after all and according to some sources Prince Schniezel also held the position of Britannia's PM/Chancellor.
Regardless, he did not rule with an iron fist. If anything, Kyoto held more sway than he did behind the scenes. Schneizel is Britannia's Prime Minister, but is not al powerful. He still answers to the Emperor.

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However in becoming an Honorary Britannian you technically cease to be a Number, legally that is, which is where I assume that it would probably open doors such as the children of Honorary Britannians becoming Britannians because it's a matter of cultural assimilation.
Wrong. Numbers who become Honorary Britannians are still Numbers, just Numbers with slightly better rights. Stop trying to base the idea on Roman citizenship. It isn't the same.

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And this somehow makes them worse than the NSA/CIA?
The latter isn't completely apathetic to Numbers being treated like dirt, nor do they murder indiscriminately, so yeah.

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Originally Posted by Commander 598 View Post
If Britannians were really concerned about racial "purity" Villeta Nu wouldn't have held a noble title, Suzaku Kururgi wouldn't have been promoted into the Emperor's personal unit of agents, and Rakshata wouldn't have been gone to the Imperial Academy/University/whatever. Moreover if that were the case I doubt literal Non-honorary Britannian Numbers would be wandering all over the damn settlement with nary a glance from anyone.
Villetta was a full Britannian citizen, not a number raised up from a conquered nation. Suzaku was a glaring exception that never got full Britannian citizenship despite everything he did (and since you seem to have watched very little of the show, he had to bribe his way into the KoR). What's wrong with Rakshata going to an imperial academy, exactly? She is not a Number, but a member of a foreign country.

Non-Honorary Britannians don't wander around the settlement that much. In fact, most are Honorary Britannians. You're exaggerating.

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I doubt any more than anyone in the real world. When presented with such a situation the response for most is likely to be to fight (In the case of soldiers) or flee (In the case of civilians) then ask questions later, and they aren't going to fight their buddies. I'm sure there's some psychological experiment about this somewhere. Shinjuku was thoroughly covered up, Saitama was a legitimate police action, and any thoughts about SAZ were probably killed and buried under the rubble of a collapsed settlement before they could be heard.
This is patent nonsense. Real-world soldiers don't go around intentionally massacring entire towns just because a few terrorists are in there. Shinjuku was glossed over by the media. The soldiers there knew damn well what they were doing. Same for Saitama. The SAZ was publicly announced and broadcast on national TV with nothing but civilians in attendance, and the soldiers were all too happy to kill every last person in attendance given the chance.

Are you honestly saying the real-world military acts like this?

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"Red Tape" is only a concern when you aren't in a dictatorship, then you can just drag the offending adhesive out back and give it the "Stalin special".
Flawed logic. There's an entire governmental system, and making change, even when you're at the top, doesn't happen that fast unless you're killing people left and right like Lelouch did.

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As I recall, the Invasion [and subsequent annexation of] Japan was on the tail end of the Second Pacific War which was basically a World War between all the major factions and Japan ergo, they were already not being taken very well by the Chinese.

Oh yeah, what about NAC? What were they spending all their loads of money on?
A cold war would be more accurate. World War happened near the end of the show. They weren't in such a war when Japan was conquered.
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Old 2010-01-11, 14:16   Link #6634
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I'm not sure I get the point of the "it's the same in real life!" argument.
The government and certain instances do a lot of shit, but I highly doubt they are anywhere near Britannia. If they were, however, that would not mean that Britannia is awesome. It would mean that we need change - and quick.

Anyway, maybe this discussion should be taken to another thread?
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Old 2010-01-11, 14:55   Link #6635
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So massacres such as Saitama were justified, and yet Lelouch was the main villain? In Bizarro World, perhaps.
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Old 2010-01-11, 15:15   Link #6636
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Nogi's got a point. To General Discussion for replies.
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Old 2010-02-01, 19:59   Link #6637
Arbitres
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Damn, missed political engagement, again. Too bad.

I think Of this:

Lelouch was 'immature' during the start of the series, but he eventually started looking at the bigger picture, not just the part with Nunnally in it. Though he couldn't help find himself back at her, thats probably because thats where all his ideals originally came from.

I can't say he is a bad person, just a good brother -- and a machinator.

I like Lelou probably because of his tragedies, no greater hero then a tragic one in my opinion.

(I'm keeping it vague and light as possible, just for those that haven't watched the entirety of it yet.)

Beyond everything else, I think Lelouch examplifies a person at their best and worse.

If I had to stick a quote on him, it would be "Hell is paved with good intentions."
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Old 2010-02-01, 20:05   Link #6638
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Solstice Cross View Post
If I had to stick a quote on him, it would be "Hell is paved with good intentions."
Which also applies to Suzaku, Schneizel, Charles and Marianne, and even Nunnally near the end.
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Old 2010-02-01, 20:38   Link #6639
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Which also applies to Suzaku, Schneizel, Charles and Marianne, and even Nunnally near the end.
And Clovis! Never forget Clovis!
...Although the good intentions kind of died pretty quickly. Oh well.
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Old 2010-02-01, 22:46   Link #6640
Arbitres
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Ahh, I guess you're right.

Code Geass is paved with good intentions, then.

Who is Clovis? Oh right! the guy that died RIGHT at the beginning of the series, forgot about him.

....I also can't say Charlie struck me as the good guy. That pointed goatee kinda gave away his role.

Spinzaku doesn't pave a way to hell, he wants to follow the yellow brick road to it. (Sarcasm)

Schneizel impressed me, he made a wonderful nice doomsday flying fortress. He ran out of funds to do the final touch: paint a big smiley face on the front of it, smiley faces make everything better..! (again, sarcasm)

"Damocles isn't here to hurt you, it's here to subjugate you all so peace can be achieved via forceful means!"

...Sorry, >:P

That was my personal opinion. Spinzaku, Charlie the rocketcorn, and Schittles weren't right in my opinion, just on the right track.

..Now, back on Lelou! >=D
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