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Old 2010-02-02, 04:43   Link #1241
Kaisos Erranon
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Hoooo boy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
What evidence against it you are talking about? Meta-Beatrice loving Battler? Or younger-sis-Beatrice loving Beatrice?
Meta-Beatrice is an entity composed of everything ever referred to as 'Beatrice'. Younger-Sis-Beatrice is the part that someone created to love Battler in their place, which is why Meta-Beatrice loves Battler to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Are you overlooking the analogy of sis-Beatrice to 1967 Beatrice, Battler to Kinzo when it was Genji and Kumasawa serving Battler?
What on EARTH does that have to do with your theory? That scene is, as far as I know, just supposed to drive home the Battler = Kinzo thing even further than it already has been.

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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Are you overlooking Shannon being Furfur but not Beatrice?
Furfur or Zepar. We don't know which is female.

In any case, Shannon isn't Beatrice. NO ONE is specifically a single Beatrice, although I believe that Shannon was the one playing witches with Maria on Rokkenjima and the one who signed the letters.

Admittedly, I have no real evidence for my theory other than "Shannon believes in magic" and "Shannon lives on/near Rokkenjima, and is thus in an easier position to solve the epitaph and find the gold, as well as dress up for Maria when she visited the island." In other words, it's a matter of convenience. But I don't go around shoving the theory in other people's faces. Not that you act like that, of course.

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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Are you overlooking when someone asked Battler what kind of a girl he liked Ryukishi07 was using 18 years old sprite and his way of talking was precisely the way he talked with Kyrie when he said dirty thing (Read EP1).
Yeah, no. Ryu07 is incredibly lazy... remember how he used the 1985 Kinzo sprite in 1967? And the 1986 Natsuhi/Krauss sprites during their Thailand trip?

And what you're suggesting is that Kyrie created Little-Sis-Beato to love Battler in her place... and that she refers to him as "Battler-san" when they're in private.

Um.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
My theory can explain Umineko more completely (about who, how and why for EP1-6), told a better tale and without using stupid plotline like DID, natural disaster as what killed Battler in the end, and Beatrice killing Ushiromiya family because Battler did not return with a white horse. Unless I see a theory which can do better than mine, I would not switch side.
Oh lawd.

"I can explain Umineko perfectly!" is what you're basically saying here.

No, you can't. Not a single thing I've seen in your theory is conclusive. Not a single thing I've seen in any theory here is conclusive, but at least some of them approach some measure of sense.

If you want an alternative supposition, check out Renall's Love Killer theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I have listed the clues from the game, how you interpret it relied on your initial ideas. If you don't accept Kyrie as Beatrice, then no matter what evidence I showed Kyrie caring Maria would be useless.

I am probably biased against DID, nonsense clothes changing and a mastermind who killed his or her family memebers only for money. You can call me irrational on that, but since these are regarded by me as stupid, third-classed plotline, that's why I detest them. Is it wrong to be against an anticlimatic, stupid or meaningless story?
First, just because Kyrie cares about Maria does not mean that she played witches with her, nor does it mean that she has access to ten tons of gold.

Second... well. Shkannon doesn't necessarily mean DID in the way most people are using the term. Kanon, for instance, could have died long ago, and Shannon could be impersonating him either out of respect, out of grief or to get double pay, or something else like that. (He would have had to have died before Gohda was hired, though, since Shkannon easily explains one of the mysteries in Notes from a Certain Cook.) Somewhere along the way, Shannon may have deluded herself into believing that Kanon is still alive or that her faith brought him back somehow... we do know that she believes in magic.

Shannontrice is classic DID though, if you go by the description of how she was created in Ep6. As for Shkannontrice... well, yeah, that's rather far-fetched.

Finally, the Rokkenjima Murders don't necessarily have to be because of Battler and the horse... rather, Shannon could be a part of a group of murders (read: the servants) and having only agreed to go along with them because of the rejection and despair she felt from Battler's disappearance.

It doesn't have to be about money... again, the Love Killer theory offers what I think is the best motive I've ever heard on this board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
*snip*
The rest is just IT'S OVER GUYS, I HAVE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND, so I won't respond to it. But that's what you want, right?
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Old 2010-02-02, 06:00   Link #1242
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
*snip*
I am tired to argue with someone like you.


BTW, for your information

Sayo, which can be interpreted as 34, and the 34th demon (from the lesser key of Solomon) is Furfur.

And Yoshiya, Yo 4, shi 4, ya, 8, 4+4+8=16, and the 16th demon is Zepar.

That's why I said Shannon is Furfur. Additionally, Zepar has been using masculine form of "I" when "he" was addressing "himself".

I did not create these, I read it from Umineko wiki.
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Last edited by ijriims; 2010-02-02 at 07:43.
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Old 2010-02-02, 06:56   Link #1243
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4+4+8 = 16
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Old 2010-02-02, 07:34   Link #1244
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
4+4+8 = 16
Thanks for correcting me.
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Last edited by ijriims; 2010-02-02 at 12:14.
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Old 2010-02-02, 12:14   Link #1245
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I am tired to argue with someone like you.


BTW, for your information

Sayo, which can be interpreted as 34, and the 34th demon (from the lesser key of Solomon) is Furfur.

And Yoshiya, Yo 4, shi 4, ya, 8, 4+4+8=16, and the 16th demon is Zepar.

That's why I said Shannon is Furfur. Additionally, Zepar has been using masculine form of "I" when "he" was addressing "himself".

I did not create these, I read it from Umineko wiki.
Nothing is confirmed however. These are speculations - just because Zepar speaks more masculine doesn't mean they're a guy. A lot of girls adapt male pronouns, to sound rougher.
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Old 2010-02-02, 12:21   Link #1246
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Nothing is confirmed however. These are speculations - just because Zepar speaks more masculine doesn't mean they're a guy. A lot of girls adapt male pronouns, to sound rougher.
If only Yoshiya had that connotation with Zepar, then one could regard as coincidence. But Sayo also translates into Furfur, then it couldn't be anything but Ryukishi07's hint.

Of course, hint is not certain at all. But are you going to disregard everything but red truth or gold truth because only they are certain?
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Old 2010-02-02, 12:25   Link #1247
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
If only Yoshiya had that connotation with Zepar, then one could regard as coincidence. But Sayo also translates into Furfur, then it couldn't be anything but Ryukishi07's hint.

Of course, hint is not certain at all. But are you going to disregard everything but red truth or gold truth because only they are certain?
Does it really matter which one is the trap however? We know they both represent Shannon and Kanon, regardless of which one is male Take a chill pill. You're acting like this is such a major deal.
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Old 2010-02-02, 12:36   Link #1248
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Does it really matter which one is the trap however? We know they both represent Shannon and Kanon, regardless of which one is male Take a chill pill. You're acting like this is such a major deal.
The fact of your saying this trivial issue was just a speculation and never certain made me think that it was very important.

But anyway, it was kind of important for them to be Shannon or Kanon since it implied Shakanon (a male dressing like a female). And by extension to the fight between them and Beatrice, it pointed us to Shakanontrice.

I have to say it is a major deal now.
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Old 2010-02-02, 12:45   Link #1249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Unless you're suggesting that Battler's "even if I include you" bit means that he's including a non-person with a value of zero, thus having the total remain at 17. ...Which really doesn't make much sense to me, but I suppose that works.
That's exactly what I was talking about (a non-person in the sense of the game, much like Kinzo). But if it doesn't make sense to you I can understand that.
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Old 2010-02-02, 12:51   Link #1250
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The problem for Erika being non-existent is: it was said in red that she beheaded the fives (amazing, a 1x teenage girl had the strength to behead five people)...unless Erika here was the name of the knife....

Or someone had to argue that furniture is not human....
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Old 2010-02-02, 13:30   Link #1251
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
If only Yoshiya had that connotation with Zepar, then one could regard as coincidence. But Sayo also translates into Furfur, then it couldn't be anything but Ryukishi07's hint.
I'm not entirely certain that the Sayo = 34 thing isn't just foreigners trying to play with kanji and come up with a connection that isn't there. As for the Yoshiya thing, well, even Erika suspects that it isn't actually Kanon's real name, and I bet you could do a similar thing with any name composed of numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
That's exactly what I was talking about (a non-person in the sense of the game, much like Kinzo). But if it doesn't make sense to you I can understand that.
Huh, well, like I said, it works for the purposes of the count, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
The problem for Erika being non-existent is: it was said in red that she beheaded the fives (amazing, a 1x teenage girl had the strength to behead five people)...unless Erika here was the name of the knife....
There's this. There is red text referring to her as a specific individual, although whether that individual is a person or an object, we don't know. I think it's telling that Erika and Erika's interactions have never been seen from an objective perspective, though.

Regardless of her presence in the game, though, we can be certain she was never on Ange's (the real) Rokkenjima... the chances of her surviving her fall (being pushed?) off the boat were next to nothing.
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Old 2010-02-02, 14:53   Link #1252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
The problem for Erika being non-existent is: it was said in red that she beheaded the fives (amazing, a 1x teenage girl had the strength to behead five people)...unless Erika here was the name of the knife....

Or someone had to argue that furniture is not human....
That's why I think "Erika" might be a magical facade over an actual person (or multiple people) on the board. Whenever red text mentions to "Erika", it could actually be referring to "the person Erika represents at that moment." I like this explanation a lot because it changes Episode 6 from a farce perpetrated by Erika into a direct look at how the first twilight is carried out, with the real culprit staring us in the face.

I said earlier that Erika didn't exclude herself from "all other people" when confirming everyone's locations, but that's not necessarily true. It's probably also reasonable to think that Battler automatically assumed she was excluded. But in that case, we've been completely fooled: since the names of the people in the cousins' room weren't listed, that means any one of them can escape so long as that person is "Erika"!
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Old 2010-02-02, 15:44   Link #1253
ameskitty
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Eh, there've been much worse manipulations of red text for the purpose of explaining something, in my opinion, and it's consistent with the way "humans" have been counted before. But it's all up to personal taste *shrugs*.

I like LyricalAura's theory. And if you can believe that all red texts referring to Kanon mean the Kanon alternate personality of Shannon, then you can certainly also stretch that and believe that all red texts referring to Erika mean the Erika/detective alternate personality of somebody else. Battler perhaps? (partially kidding, but it would actually work pretty well...Kanon too)
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Old 2010-02-02, 18:26   Link #1254
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I actually noticed awhile ago that at least in Episode 5, Erika's assertions are almost ALWAYS parroted or implied to be parroted by someone else in the room- usually Eva.

Could be a coincidence, but eh.
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Old 2010-02-02, 19:02   Link #1255
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If Erika is something that transfers between characters ("detectiveness"), then it's possible that in EP1-EP4 the detective's authority can actually transfer as well. That is, her introduction is hinting at the possibility that Battler is (1.) not the only detective but also (2.) not always the detective.

Since we're headed in this direction, it's worth thinking about.
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Old 2010-02-02, 19:08   Link #1256
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
If Erika is something that transfers between characters ("detectiveness"), then it's possible that in EP1-EP4 the detective's authority can actually transfer as well. That is, her introduction is hinting at the possibility that Battler is (1.) not the only detective but also (2.) not always the detective.

Since we're headed in this direction, it's worth thinking about.
Well there's nothing against multiple detectives, since Dine rules aren't in affect. Plus Dlanor brings up the possibility that Battler was also a trusted perspective in EP 5, during their red text battle in ??? so it may not be against Knox either. Although that means that those involved in fantasy scenes can't really be detectives, since they're POV becomes untrustworthy. But if that's the case then everyone but Battler is out, since every character has been exposed to magical elements at least once.
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Old 2010-02-02, 19:22   Link #1257
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Well there's nothing against multiple detectives, since Dine rules aren't in affect. Plus Dlanor brings up the possibility that Battler was also a trusted perspective in EP 5, during their red text battle in ??? so it may not be against Knox either. Although that means that those involved in fantasy scenes can't really be detectives, since they're POV becomes untrustworthy. But if that's the case then everyone but Battler is out, since every character has been exposed to magical elements at least once.
But what if pieces can loose their detective view? For example Battler looses it in episode 2 after getting drunk. So for example in episode 4 George and Jessica are both reliable detecitve POVs until they get utterly untrustworthy when getting into the magic fights.
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Old 2010-02-02, 20:18   Link #1258
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Well there's nothing against multiple detectives, since Dine rules aren't in affect. Plus Dlanor brings up the possibility that Battler was also a trusted perspective in EP 5, during their red text battle in ??? so it may not be against Knox either. Although that means that those involved in fantasy scenes can't really be detectives, since they're POV becomes untrustworthy. But if that's the case then everyone but Battler is out, since every character has been exposed to magical elements at least once.
I'm not only talking about multiple detectives, but the idea that the "detective ball" gets passed between characters, with (possibly) only one detective in play at a time. In EP5, Erika is a representation of whoever the detective is at the time.

Incidentally, if people are discussing what to do in a situation, people end up going with somebody's suggestion, but not always the same person, right? The reason people always listen to Erika is because she's whoever came up with what was perceived as the "best idea" at the time (and consequently was the detective).
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Old 2010-02-02, 20:21   Link #1259
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The red text in EP5 regarding her "addition to the person count" is suspiciously evasive, too. All it says about the actual count is that besides her, it's the same. And as for "Furudo Erika only increases it by one person." - what did she increase? Maybe Bern and Lambda were talking about the personality count. Lambda even calls her an "extra character who appears for the first time this round". An alternate personality of somebody else/the collective family that took over for Battler?
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Old 2010-02-02, 20:27   Link #1260
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We know that Erika killed the five people who died in the first twilight of Episode 6, and the detective may not be the culprit, so whoever she was representing at the time couldn't have been a detective. That's not to say she doesn't also get to act as a mouthpiece for the best idea at the time like k//eternal said, but we shouldn't assume that means whoever she's representing is a detective in the Knox sense, at least in Episode 6. It sounds reasonable to make her a roving detective ball in Episode 5 though, since she got red text to that effect.

On the subject of Episode 5, there was a similar "all other people" usage to pin down the people in the dining room at midnight. We can extract one of those and move them to the guesthouse under cover of Erika using the same method I described before.

EDIT:
I wonder if we can use Knox 3 to rule out people as culprits if we can figure out who Erika was standing in for when she took actions as the detective.
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