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Old 2010-02-01, 22:32   Link #81
Arbitres
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I half agree with Hayashi, half agree with wandering.

Jrpgs can range from several things, from simple choice-based events (Visual novel in other words) to real time strategy.

However, a good example of reused battle systems is Tales Of and Final Fantasy. I'm a fan of the former however, as Tales Of usually have good stories.

While I was a fan of the character art, voice acting, and battle system of tales of Vesperia, I've become recluse to the 'Tales of' due to that scandal involving the title.

But that is besides the point. Jrpgs can be shooter, roleplaying, etc... but a series of games become useless without intricate battle system.

However, back on topic...

A story is vital, and a requirement for my opinion. Games like Fallout and Tales of Symphonia meet these standards exceptionally.

Another requirement is the story implemented, how it is implemented. Along with; and why it is being implemented. A story shouldn't be mediocre, it should atleast try to be unique in atleast one manner. I hate amnesia-boys-out-to-save-the-kingdom, overdone, and Shining Tears was my last (Yes, really.)

...So yes, Written Story is important to me. To be politically correct, I prefer "Well developed plotlines and subevents used to facilitate the main plot as a standard bearer."

...Ja?
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Old 2010-02-01, 22:46   Link #82
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
No, I specifically asked this question:



...which is completely related to the question the OP asked.



When did I talk about "turn based" combat? It has nothing to do with my argument that JRPG game mechanics are dull and boring, and quickly turn into a grindfest. Most of the "action" JRPGs I've played (yes, that includes Star Ocean, Tales, [insert generic JRPG here]) eventually turned into either mashing buttons or letting the CPU fight for you. Which is not my definition of "complex" game mechanics at all.

You should really play games with complex mechanics. The Touhou shmups, for example, are pretty easy to pick up even for someone who hasn't touched a shmup in their life and are a good example of well-thought out mechanics with complex scoring systems.
I think touhou sucks, does that mean I'm right? No, it's only my opinion. You seem to change your words quite readily, in your previous posts you only mention the boring simple mechanics of turn base, now when I mention other types you are quick to add on to it and make it seem like you meant others as well as a safe guard.

No video is truly "complex" everything is barebone simple if you really get down to it. You can play and beat any game with simple mashing. Like fighting games for instance, you can be godlike in combos and whatever complex button pressing but still lose to a girl who just presses punch.

There's nothing wrong in thinking your opinion is the only one that matters, because to you it does. But please, don't force your opinion on others. It can result in unfavorable arguments, and in some cases physical violence. It's not only for the sake of civility of the internet but its something to take into consideration in real life, unless of course in real life you're very different and not as outspoken and very meek.
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Old 2010-02-01, 22:50   Link #83
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
No video is truly "complex" everything is barebone simple if you really get down to it. You can play and beat any game with simple mashing. Like fighting games for instance, you can be godlike in combos and whatever complex button pressing but still lose to a girl who just presses punch.
You have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about.

Go try to mash buttons against the guys competing in SBO every year. Or just go to your local arcade where there is a big enough scene of 2D fighting regulars. Go on, I dare you to try it.

It's understandable that you think that way, since it just stems from a lack of understanding how fighting games work. If you knew how they work, you'd know how button mashing is completely retarded in any decent competitive scene, and you wouldn't be saying that.

Fighting games are, by far, some of the most complex games out there. They're games that might take months, even years to master. Button-mashing your way through the CPU and dropping the game 40 minutes after you've bought a dumbed-down console version of it is absolutely no way of judging its quality.
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Old 2010-02-01, 22:56   Link #84
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
You have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about.

Go try to mash buttons against the guys competing in SBO every year. Or just go to your local arcade where there is a big enough scene of 2D fighting regulars. Go on, I dare you to try it.

It's understandable that you think that way, since it just stems from a lack of understanding how fighting games work. If you knew how they work, you'd know how button mashing is completely retarded in any decent competitive scene, and you wouldn't be saying that.
Oh god, there you go again... no I'm not talking about those people who do nothing but spend their lives day and night doing nothing but hang out in arcades to one day compete in a competition.

I'm talking about gamers losing to beginners luck of button mashing, if that has never happened to you than you're a bullshit liar or only plays games by himself.

Quite frankly I'm done with you here, yes you're right about everything your opinion is all omnipotent and shall never be questioned again. /end discussion.
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Old 2010-02-01, 23:04   Link #85
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Quote:
Oh god, there you go again... no I'm not talking about those people who do nothing but spend their lives day and night doing nothing but hang out in arcades to one day compete in a competition.
But they're the only ones who have managed to master such a complex game! That's why the game is complex. What kind of argument are you trying to pull here?

Quote:
I'm talking about gamers losing to beginners luck of button mashing, if that has never happened to you than you're a bullshit liar or only plays games by himself.
Yes, that has happened to me, mostly because I'm not such a good player. It stops happening once you get to understand how the game works.

Quote:
Quite frankly I'm done with you here, yes you're right about everything your opinion is all omnipotent and shall never be questioned again. /end discussion.
Let's see:

Me: JRPGs are simple games.
You: No, they're not. There's no such thing as a complex game *pulls fighting game argument*
Me: Fighting games are extremely complex and take a lot of time of actively learning and playing against other people to master.
You: I'm not talking about those people who try their best to master the game, since it's so hard.
Me: wut?

Yes, awesome discussion right there.

To be honest, there's absolutely no problem with JRPGs being simple. I don't like that, but there's no reason why anyone can't like that. However, you can't just blatantly go around saying that there's no such thing as a complex game, even less when you try to pull such a ridiculous example as a fighting game (lol).
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Old 2010-02-02, 04:40   Link #86
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Before we go on, let's clear something. The term "role play" has been greatly mistaken to be farming/griding/buying and selling. That is not role play; it's statistics growth. Role play is about playing a character. And a character cannot be any random set of polygons that no matter what haircolour or height you give him/her during creation, he/she will act the same in any case in the game. Role play is about limitations and specializations in behaviour. NOT ups n' downs in statistics.
Many games for example have the alliance aspect, where a good willing character can't steal and a evil willing character can't enter holy places. This way no matter how well you play a character, he/she will never unlock everything in the game.
Role play is also about being able to affect the outcome of cetain events. And sadly very few RPG games so far allow you to change the ending. I don't know if paths in date sims count as well but games with multiple endings are a way of showing true interaction in the story.

Does anyone remember Vagrant Story? That game had amazing visuals, unique features, special story... and it was frakking hard! I had to get a guide and it was still hard! But I did enjoy the damn thing.

Then I tried to plat ICO and Shadow of Colossus. Interaction with the enviroment was amazing but the story... well, it alienated me. The atmosphere was great but the story was just an excuse and that way I lost interest soon.

Down to it, strategy games are the best category for me to enjoy a game with a simple story. I caught myself several times trying to win a battle just for the sake of winning the battle with proper planning and didn't give a damn about the story. As I did with the first Killer Instict, a rather medium fighting game with amazing techno music. I just used Spinal's teleportation attack and bashing move to win through almost any duel. Repetitive but I enjoyed it.
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Old 2010-02-02, 10:31   Link #87
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Before we go on, let's clear something. The term "role play" has been greatly mistaken to be farming/griding/buying and selling. That is not role play; it's statistics growth. Role play is about playing a character. And a character cannot be any random set of polygons that no matter what haircolour or height you give him/her during creation, he/she will act the same in any case in the game. Role play is about limitations and specializations in behaviour. NOT ups n' downs in statistics.
Many games for example have the alliance aspect, where a good willing character can't steal and a evil willing character can't enter holy places. This way no matter how well you play a character, he/she will never unlock everything in the game.
Role play is also about being able to affect the outcome of cetain events. And sadly very few RPG games so far allow you to change the ending. I don't know if paths in date sims count as well but games with multiple endings are a way of showing true interaction in the story.
That was true in the days where the term was first used, however these days roleplay has another meaning, and that is the one used in most video games. In this meaning, you assume the role of a certain character and experience their story. 'Play their role' as it were.

True influence is impossible in video games anyway, only the pen and paper RPG's can deliver true influence.
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Old 2010-02-02, 11:36   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
But they're the only ones who have managed to master such a complex game! That's why the game is complex. What kind of argument are you trying to pull here?



Yes, that has happened to me, mostly because I'm not such a good player. It stops happening once you get to understand how the game works.



Let's see:

Me: JRPGs are simple games.
You: No, they're not. There's no such thing as a complex game *pulls fighting game argument*
Me: Fighting games are extremely complex and take a lot of time of actively learning and playing against other people to master.
You: I'm not talking about those people who try their best to master the game, since it's so hard.
Me: wut?

Yes, awesome discussion right there.

To be honest, there's absolutely no problem with JRPGs being simple. I don't like that, but there's no reason why anyone can't like that. However, you can't just blatantly go around saying that there's no such thing as a complex game, even less when you try to pull such a ridiculous example as a fighting game (lol).
Well I personally think your both are right The problem with both your arguments of what game is simple and which game is complex is that you both make the mistaken assumption on each other perceptions rather than statistical data or analysis. Thus you're both claiming to be right on something that ultimately is based on personal opinions.

Using the fighting game discussion as an example one can see that the basic components of a fighting game is simple because it has the basic functions of punches, kicks and one or two special moves. It's a pretty simple layout. Than again one can say the game is complex, because it takes skill to learn the moves efficiently. That is really the basis of your arguments. Even then one can argue that the game is still simple, because it's not the game in itself that is complex but the individual person. But than the other person can counter by saying yes the person makes the game complex, but doesn't that mean the game in itself has a set of functions to allow such complexity.

Ultimately this is an argument that can keep going, because it is based on opinion.

on a second note I think story is more important than game play, but the game play has to atleast be at a point where the game is playable. Some of my favorite games are the old dos and windows games, because they had great stories...for example I loved the quest for glory games. Quest for glory 4 though had alot of bugs and even though if you could get around the bugs the game and story were very good in fact story wise it was my favorite game.
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Old 2010-02-02, 11:49   Link #89
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
I think touhou sucks,
Someone heard that, and judging by that look on her face, she isn't happy.



She will bite off your epidermis, 5cm x 5cm square, piece by piece, off tonight. Enjoy your sleep tonight, because you are going to wake up the next morning without your skin.

Back on topic, I think storyline is as essential to a game as gameplay. A good example would be visual novels, despite being simple in programming, the storyline made it popular (along with the risque scenes, but that is a minor consideration). Otherwise how do you think Clannad became so well-known and loved?
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Old 2010-02-02, 20:18   Link #90
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It depends on how much the game emphasizes the story. JRPGs tend to emphasize plot more, so in those games I pay more attention to it.

I don't think a strong story is entirely necessary though. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 4: Turtles in Time (SNES version) is a game I loved when I was a kid, and still love now, has a ridiculous plot (Shredder's stolen the Statue of Liberty! Are you a bad enough turtle to get it back?) but the game's incredibly addictive and has the endlessly amusing gimmick of throwing people directly at the screen.
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Old 2010-02-03, 12:46   Link #91
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It really depends on genre. Some genres don't require a plot. Audiosurf is an incredible game and I've wasted hours upon hours playing it, but it has no plot whatsoever. Still loads of fun.

But games that are heavily plot-dependent, such as the mostly-defunct adventure genre, live and die on the quality of their writing. Fahrenheit (or Indigo Prophecy in the US) is a good example of epic story fail.
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Old 2010-02-04, 11:39   Link #92
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Well some games are story driven while others are gameplay driven. I enjoy playing both kind as long as they are good.

But for some well threaded genre, it's harder and harder to get by with just having new mechanics. The story takes the center stage over the gameplay mechanic (tho poor gameplay can seriously hamper the story)
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Old 2010-02-05, 09:25   Link #93
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Gun to my head, I'd pick gameplay over story. The way I see it, I can play a game without a story and have a good time (Mario, Sonic, Mega Man), but I wouldn't want to play a game with horrible gameplay mechanics regardless of how amazing the story is.
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Old 2010-02-05, 13:15   Link #94
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^ Gun to MY head, I played Xenogears and Xenosaga just for the story.
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Old 2010-02-05, 13:55   Link #95
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Speaking of Xenosaga, the second game in that series is a rare example for me where the gameplay was so utterly bad that the story could not even save it. It was a complete chore to play through and I decided after I beat it that I would never play it again. Years later my opinion on that hasn't changed in the slightest. Maybe it's just me but the fact that the game bombed and that episode 3 included a very detailed summary of all the major plot points of 2 so that people wouldn't necessarily have to play it to understand 3, kinda makes me feel like I wasn't even close to the only one who felt that way.
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