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Old 2010-02-14, 21:56   Link #22541
Knightrunner
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Why would anybody show remorse to an enemy that would kill you right back? Just a thought.
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Old 2010-02-14, 22:02   Link #22542
Rising Dragon
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Because humans are irrational creatures like that.
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Old 2010-02-14, 22:20   Link #22543
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Suzaku doesn't rationalize their deaths, YOU are doing it for him, just like you're rationalizing Kallen's kills by dehumanizing the "other" side.

A lot of those guys weren't racists, a lot where just doing their jobs. Besides, Viletta was by your definition a racist too, and she learned to accept the Japanese, same with Cornelia, Guilford, etc. Just because someone is misguided and ignorant doesn't mean they are bad people.
Then what do you call "Filthy Eleven!"? Villetta and Cornelia HATED Numbers, indisputably, until very late. And their conditions for acceptance were somewhat contrived, not to mention they got off the hook a little too easily.

Besides, Suzaku was essentially rationalizing the deaths of his opponents because of his goals. If he really didn't want to kill anyone, he would have backed out of the military side long ago. Practically all he had was his death wish.

And as was stated earlier, how much remorse did Kallen need to show for killing those who would kill her for no good reason? The most many of those soldiers had riding on their jobs was their nobility, which had nothing on the general welfare of the opposite side. And I'd say you were dehumanizing Kallen first, so I had to counter accordingly. Not to mention that, for Pete's sake, this was the woman who comfortingly embraced then-racist Nina when the latter made an attempt on her life for being half-Japanese.
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Old 2010-02-14, 22:24   Link #22544
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"The only ones who should kill, are those prepared to be killed"

Britannia isn't filled to the pot with Racist, I could name quite afew who disregarded race entirely.

One being Euphemia (Eternity rest her soul) Guilford, Andreas Darlton, The Darlton Children, Gino, and Bismarck.

That doesn't mean japan had the fortune of being conquered and settled by the non-racist. Quite the opposite.

Kallen is doing her job as a soldier to kill her enemies. If you want to see a monster... Then look no further then Luciano Bradley, who derives pleasure and happiness of mocking and ending lives.

That doesn't mean all Britannians are Luciano, either. Just the pompous, arrogant nobles who think they have name and money that they can do whatever they please. Maggots.

Again, doesn't mean all are the same.

The same goes for the japanese, some simply roll over and accept Britannia's rule, which I find an act of submission. Quite weak, personally.

Neither are right, or wrong. But flaunting about saying you are right is arrogant.

I luv Kallen, but I do think she could've spared some of the Darltons, maybe even Kewell. But that is war, you do it now, not later -- Because while you are thinking of a peaceful solution, your being perforated.
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Old 2010-02-14, 22:28   Link #22545
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I wouldn't quite include Gino amongst the "non-racists". While he wasn't that abrasive, he was still too idiotically jingoistic for his own good.
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Old 2010-02-14, 22:47   Link #22546
Knightrunner
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Originally Posted by Solstice Cross View Post

I luv Kallen, but I do think she could've spared some of the Darltons, maybe even Kewell. But that is war, you do it now, not later -- Because while you are thinking of a peaceful solution, your being perforated.
It not like Kallen knows there life story. War is war. Kill or be killed. I'm sure Daltons kids especially Kewell would try to kill her in a heart beat if they had the piloting skills and machine power. All you see is knightmares and huge guns in one side while you are trying to avoid the bullets of death.
If you let an enemy live they will pick up another gun and try to off you the next day so Kallen couldn't really spare anybody in the battle field.
Some of the student body isn't really racist either well except for Nina.
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Old 2010-02-14, 23:24   Link #22547
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He doesn't really change that much TBH...In R1 he is all about the end do not justify the means, and doesn't really kill people in combat.

In R2 is a bit more result oriented, but he still tries to avoid lethal force and tries to get people to surrender.

Suzaku still understands that these people his fighting are just doing their jobs and have family, friends, etc, as opposed to kallen who never gives anyone a chance to surrender or just disable them, she just straight up kills people, and a LOT of them. What's worse, she shows absolutely no remorse or regret...
Suzaku still continues to conquer other nations, fully knowing that he is actively helping force upon them the same fate he wants to save his own country from. That little girl in Turn 0.56 screams at him that he killed her family, and he goes right back to making many more war orphans just like her.

Kallen does show empathy for those she kills. She says "Sorry" just before frying Jeremiah in Narita, as well as clearly being broken up about killing Shirley's father. Then on the docks she talks to Zero and says that the fact she believed in their cause was how she was able to live with the killing. She also yells at Nagata not to use the "poison gas" capsule in the middle of a city.
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Old 2010-02-14, 23:30   Link #22548
Rising Dragon
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You know, honestly, I missed the scene where Kallen laments killing Shirley's father. Anyone got a youtube clip of that?
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Old 2010-02-14, 23:37   Link #22549
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Why would you say to spare Kewell? :P

lol guy was an asshole of the highest order, if anyone deserved to die it was him.

maybe his SISTER though? idk

btw Kallen only killed 1 Dalton kid, the Blonde dude. pretty much the same way she off'd Kewell too lol.
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Old 2010-02-14, 23:40   Link #22550
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
He doesn't really change that much TBH...In R1 he is all about the end do not justify the means, and doesn't really kill people in combat.

In R2 is a bit more result oriented, but he still tries to avoid lethal force and tries to get people to surrender.
His efforts to make people surrender are token at best, and he can't be so stupid as to believe they'll actually work. Demanding all the EU forces to surrender to one unit is just him rationalizing his forthcoming massacre.

In R1, Suzaku was genuinely unwilling to kill. He was perfectly ok with massacres committed while he did his job (Shinjuku). In R2, he kills or lets people die as justification for his own rise to power. He stopped being the same guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Suzaku still understands that these people his fighting are just doing their jobs and have family, friends, etc, as opposed to kallen who never gives anyone a chance to surrender or just disable them, she just straight up kills people, and a LOT of them. What's worse, she shows absolutely no remorse or regret...
When does he ever express such a sentiment? Seriously, name one time. He's just like Kallen in R2, only worse in that his goal is entirely self-serving. It's meant to get power for him so he can do what he wants. He's not fighting for a greater cause, just his own conscience.

Kallen doesn't give chances for surrender or disable people because a) her Knightmare isn't designed for that and b) she's not put in situations where that would be logical or pragmatic. In the middle of a war, you don't shoot to disable, you shoot to kill.
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Old 2010-02-14, 23:52   Link #22551
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Awesome, so now being honorable in battle is just rationalizing a massacre?

He at least gave them the option to surrender, the commanders chose NOT to do so and sacrificed the lives of their men needlessly. Granted, Suzaku probably told them to surrender so he would feel better afterwards, but the fact is he offered them regardless of how ridiculous it might have been (surrender an entire army to a single unit).

I suppose that was a way of shifting responsibility to the Generals...
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Old 2010-02-15, 00:03   Link #22552
Betteroffer
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
You know, honestly, I missed the scene where Kallen laments killing Shirley's father. Anyone got a youtube clip of that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sL2W7SRM7U

Unfortunately it's the entire episode so it will take time to load, though it is in english.

The funeral scene is first and the Ashford students are shown at about the 3:10 marker. Kallen apologizes to Shirley early into it, and gives an additional glance back at Shirley as she leaves. At the 8:50 marker she is shown looking at pictures of her own family, and her conversation with Zero begins at the 13:30 marker.
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Old 2010-02-15, 00:22   Link #22553
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Awesome, so now being honorable in battle is just rationalizing a massacre?

He at least gave them the option to surrender, the commanders chose NOT to do so and sacrificed the lives of their men needlessly. Granted, Suzaku probably told them to surrender so he would feel better afterwards, but the fact is he offered them regardless of how ridiculous it might have been (surrender an entire army to a single unit).

I suppose that was a way of shifting responsibility to the Generals...
Being honorable in battle is one thing, being (however justifiably) arrogant and making frankly unreasonable demands when before that your forces are losing is quite another. Suzaku could not have expected them to surrender, especially when this war means their very rights as humans are on the line. He just wanted to have the peace of mind of giving them the option. The commanders didn't sacrifice their men needlessly, they tried to take down an enemy unit that landed on their shores when they were winning that battle.

Such a ridiculous surrender request could never be expected to be accepted. And Suzaku is guilty of this fact more than once, demanding an entire army to retreat in the face of a never-before-seen weapon as a bluff. Unless he's genuinely that stupid, he's only saying it to justify killing people. He doesn't even get that benefit when he fights Kallen in Turn 18, firing in the middle of his request for her to move. That was outright trying to make her kill herself protecting Lelouch.

Anyway, the difference here is that Kallen doesn't delude herself about what she's doing. She kills people for her cause. She knows it. Suzaku tries to dress it up so he'll feel better about himself.
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Old 2010-02-15, 00:23   Link #22554
azul120
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
His efforts to make people surrender are token at best, and he can't be so stupid as to believe they'll actually work. Demanding all the EU forces to surrender to one unit is just him rationalizing his forthcoming massacre.

In R1, Suzaku was genuinely unwilling to kill. He was perfectly ok with massacres committed while he did his job (Shinjuku). In R2, he kills or lets people die as justification for his own rise to power. He stopped being the same guy.
Like in R2 9, when he rationalized the executions of the heads of the Kyoto House to Kaguya by saying they supported terrorism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist
Awesome, so now being honorable in battle is just rationalizing a massacre?

He at least gave them the option to surrender, the commanders chose NOT to do so and sacrificed the lives of their men needlessly. Granted, Suzaku probably told them to surrender so he would feel better afterwards, but the fact is he offered them regardless of how ridiculous it might have been (surrender an entire army to a single unit).

I suppose that was a way of shifting responsibility to the Generals...
Oh, so they're the ones at fault, and not Britannia?
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Old 2010-02-15, 00:27   Link #22555
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Like in R2 9, when he rationalized the executions of the heads of the Kyoto House to Kaguya by saying they supported terrorism.



Oh, so they're the ones at fault, and not Britannia?
What's wrong with that? They DID support terrorism...He doesn't need to rationalize it.
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Old 2010-02-15, 00:32   Link #22556
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What's wrong with that? They DID support terrorism...He doesn't need to rationalize it.
Actually have to agree with Revolutionist here. That instance was a straight statement of fact. He didn't hold any loyalty to them. Now if it had been something more down to Earth like a group of random civilians, then it'd be a different story.
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Old 2010-02-15, 00:39   Link #22557
Nobodyman9
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Guys, I hate to be a buzzkill, but...off topic much?
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Old 2010-02-15, 00:43   Link #22558
azul120
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Not loyalty to them on a political level, but he did have a history with them.

Not to mention that, from the big scope of things, it was Suzaku who betrayed Japan, not them. They were terrorists in the eyes of Britannia, WHO I must add forcibly occupied their country, and were secretly aiding its freedom. Now they may not have been civilians, but Suzaku still turned his back on him.

Afterthought: I guess it is different, in that it should be filed under turning against former friends/etc., like when he wouldn't ask for Kallen's forgiveness as he moved in for the kill against her in R2 6.

Last edited by azul120; 2010-02-15 at 00:53.
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Old 2010-02-15, 05:40   Link #22559
bladeofdarkness
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i don't really get why people overcomplicated things so much ?
its very basic really

Suzaku fights and kills people who are defending their homes and families from oppression
Kallen fights and kills people who are trying to ENFORCE said oppression on her's

in season 1, you could say that, because japan is his home, and he is trying to help shape it into what he thinks is a better place, then Suzaku has a right to fight THERE
as opposed to just about everyone else who is part of britannia's military who fights there, because they have no right to be there in the first place
by compare, Kallen is Also fighting for her home, and hence has a right to fight there
she doesn't show anyone mercy because
A)anyone she faces would kill her and everyone else on her side, the moment they get the chance
B)anyone for whom japan is NOT a home, and yet fights there, is just looking for a trouble anyway
in other words, both Kallen and Suzaku could be viewed as having a legitimate reason and a legitimate RIGHT to fight over the fate of japan
because its THEIR home

once Suzaku is taken out of japan, and placed into britannia's general "world conquering" shtick, then it also takes away the legitimacy of his actions, because he's an outsider in those countries as well
and it puts him roughly on the same level, as cornellia was in season 1
for JAPAN he might be more, but for the people of the EU, he's just an invader and a murderer

and THAT is why i said suzaku changed
he goes from simply trying to improve the life of the people in his homeland, which he has the right to do, since its his home
to actively destroying the lives of people in other countries in order to achieve this result
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Old 2010-02-15, 05:47   Link #22560
azul120
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I guess some of us were trying too hard, and went off into tangents.

But yes, what you said, pretty much. Which is what made his sanctimoniousness Narmtastic that season.
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