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Old 2010-02-15, 06:45   Link #22561
Lolipopo
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
She seemed frightened enough in Stage 2 when the soldiers were about to gun them all down in the warehouse, during the Orange Incident, when she was falling in Turn 6, when Xing-ke was carting her off, when Suzaku was about to drug her, when Luciano implied torturing or raping her, and just before Sayoko killed the soldier sent to kill her (she had tears in her eyes).

Being willing to die for a cause and unafraid of death are too very different things, and even suicidal people can fear dying.

@Blade: Ahh, okay, I thought you were lumping his freakout during the Black Rebellion in with his actions between the seasons as being similarly unjustifiable. I agree that everything after the Black Rebellion was unjustifiable, and would indeed make Euphemia roll over in her grave.

Well I didn't mean she isn't scared by death in a proper sense (I think everyone is always a bit afraid by death) but more in reply to Bonzo's post who was about how she is frightened by death cause she wants to live with her mother.

Her actions are telling us otherwise.
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Old 2010-02-15, 07:58   Link #22562
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Not loyalty to them on a political level, but he did have a history with them.

Not to mention that, from the big scope of things, it was Suzaku who betrayed Japan, not them. They were terrorists in the eyes of Britannia, WHO I must add forcibly occupied their country, and were secretly aiding its freedom. Now they may not have been civilians, but Suzaku still turned his back on him.

Afterthought: I guess it is different, in that it should be filed under turning against former friends/etc., like when he wouldn't ask for Kallen's forgiveness as he moved in for the kill against her in R2 6.
Flash back to Stage 19 for some Suzaku development on that issue.

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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Being honorable in battle is one thing, being (however justifiably) arrogant and making frankly unreasonable demands when before that your forces are losing is quite another. Suzaku could not have expected them to surrender, especially when this war means their very rights as humans are on the line. He just wanted to have the peace of mind of giving them the option. The commanders didn't sacrifice their men needlessly, they tried to take down an enemy unit that landed on their shores when they were winning that battle.

Such a ridiculous surrender request could never be expected to be accepted. And Suzaku is guilty of this fact more than once, demanding an entire army to retreat in the face of a never-before-seen weapon as a bluff. Unless he's genuinely that stupid, he's only saying it to justify killing people. He doesn't even get that benefit when he fights Kallen in Turn 18, firing in the middle of his request for her to move. That was outright trying to make her kill herself protecting Lelouch.

Anyway, the difference here is that Kallen doesn't delude herself about what she's doing. She kills people for her cause. She knows it. Suzaku tries to dress it up so he'll feel better about himself.
I don't really get where people get this 'Suzaku does stuff to make himself feel better' stuff when it's pretty clear he couldn't possibly consider himself more of a dirty sinner. (Also: the line azul brought up in Turn 6 is pretty much an explicit example of Suzaku refusing to dress up the fact that he is killing real people for his cause.)Screw whatever preconceptions those European generals' had of what constitutes a 'reasonable' battle; if the name of the Knight of Rounds' 'White Shinigami' doesn't speak enough for them, then they do deserve whatever consequences they get for not surrendering. I think one thing to remember when talking about Suzaku supposedly helping Britannia 'enslave' other countries is that, unlike the then present Britannia and Japan, Britannia and the E.U./C.F. are actually (perhaps intermittently, but certainly historically) at war. The fact is, in Code Geass it's pretty much a given that all governments are assholes anyway (go back to Lelouch and Suzaku's meeting in Picture Book 1/Stage 00 for an interesting idealogical reversal), so assuming and condemning Suzaku for enabling a 'political aggressor' like Britannia would be meaningless. Compromising with stuff like that is a fundamental assumption of 'working with the (any) system' in the first place.

Remember, Suzaku's goal is not 'get Britannia to stop conquering countries'. It's 'get Britannia to treat conquered countries well'; countries being conquered is not a detriment under this assumption.

Furthermore, speaking on Suzaku's contributions to Britannia 'enslaving' other countries in the style of Japan in general: unlike Japan, which was an independant nation, wherever it was Suzaku was fighting in Turn 4 (it was either Germany or Italy I think, but I can't remember) and more than likely anywhere else he took the field at was a part of one of the world's superpowers (the E.U. in this case). This is because, after gaining military dominance around the time of the invasion of Japan, Britannia had already had around 8 years to conquer any of the weaker individual nations left around which it was interested in. However, considering all the military/technological advancements Britannia had been acquiring recently, it was probably in an expansionary period, even beginning to gain ground directly against its rival superpowers. What this means is two things: first, given Britannia's much increased military potential, and given that it's recent gains are in areas much closer to the heart of it's rival superpowers, Britannia has much less incentive to consolidate/reform those areas than to convert them into staging grounds for further excursions or to use them as bargaining chips for direct negotiations. Second: given the influx of new technology, Britannia gained more room for growth/improvement so that less of its production capacity would be directed at satellite 'colonies' in the first place (I think you can see this in the state of Japan at the start of R2 for example--it is clearly not recovered from the Black Rebellion, and the general situation itself does not seem permanent or even sustainable). All this means that for me, the idea that Suzaku's contributions to Britannia's war effort would lead to anything remotely similar to new 'Area 11's is quite unlikely.

So let me get back to the point: as I see it, Suzaku had no reason whatsoever to feel guilty over crushing those armies, so I don't see why he'd feel the need to 'dress up' anything in the first place; and indeed, the fact that he offered them a chance to surrender at all does seem to me to have been honourable.

edit: lol, yeah I suppose this is a bit more complicated than your version blade, but I don't think Suzaku ever thought about his cause in terms of legitimacy in the first place. I realize this will sound terribly ironic to you guys, but under the interpretation above, Suzaku helping Britannia conquer countries as a step on the way to 'getting Britannia to treat conquered countries better' could be construed as an example of Suzaku, like Lelouch, having a bit of a worldwide vision.

Anyway--sorry for off-topic. I had a bit about Kallen here originally but I didn't finish it and kinda don't feel like thinking anymore so I scrapped it. Cross-posting this to the Suzaku thread, so send any replies there.
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Old 2010-02-15, 10:16   Link #22563
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Suzaku is near irrelevant in this thread. To me, who shouldn't exist here, as this is a Shrine to Kallen (More or less D

Lolipopo: I agree, everyone is afraid of death to some extent, especially by their individual sense of it. (i.e: Lelouch would feel dead if Nunnally and Kallen were to die. Though thats in my opinion.)

Kallen is brave enough to overcome defeat and sorrow to remain risen among others, instead using that as a foundation for future resolve.

Though at the Geass Door finale in 25-R1, she did indeed run away... But that was from shock of Lelouch being Zero -- The man who would liberate japan.

I say thats it for me until someone draws up something else </3
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Old 2010-02-15, 11:28   Link #22564
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From an ideological point of view Britannia has no right to be in Japan. I guess that's why Kallen can rationalize her murdering cops and soldiers. However, the moment Japan lost the war, which it was partially responsible for, Britannia ceased to be the conqueror and inherited all the responsibilities of the previous government. So, Britannia does have a right to protect its territories, and terrorists kinda get in the way of that.

Not only are these guys killing mostly other Elevens, but they're also preventing the reconstruction process, which is why they're stuck in ghettos. Nobody wants to have their cities looking like shit, and we see that Britannia is no exception, in R2 they are rebuilding Shinjiku...

Besides, you can't really blame people for doing their jobs...Most Britannian soldiers and police officers had nothing to do with their government's actions, they didn't choose to invade Japan. They are just there doing their jobs, most probably just want to do their time and get the hell out and go back to their families and friends.
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Old 2010-02-15, 11:34   Link #22565
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
From an ideological point of view Britannia has no right to be in Japan. I guess that's why Kallen can rationalize her murdering cops and soldiers. However, the moment Japan lost the war, which it was partially responsible for, Britannia ceased to be the conqueror and inherited all the responsibilities of the previous government. So, Britannia does have a right to protect its territories, and terrorists kinda get in the way of that.
does not compute ?
how does conquering another country make it yours ?
how does that make you anything BUT an occupier ?
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Old 2010-02-15, 11:53   Link #22566
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
From an ideological point of view Britannia has no right to be in Japan. I guess that's why Kallen can rationalize her murdering cops and soldiers. However, the moment Japan lost the war, which it was partially responsible for, Britannia ceased to be the conqueror and inherited all the responsibilities of the previous government. So, Britannia does have a right to protect its territories, and terrorists kinda get in the way of that.
A country does not cease being a conqueror when they win. It only means they're an occupying force instead of an invading army.

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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Not only are these guys killing mostly other Elevens, but they're also preventing the reconstruction process, which is why they're stuck in ghettos. Nobody wants to have their cities looking like shit, and we see that Britannia is no exception, in R2 they are rebuilding Shinjiku...
That was likely propaganda. They couldn't well admit that a poison gas canister was stolen. As for the reconstruction, it burdened the Elevens, as Nunnally takes issue with in Turn 16 specifically when chewing out Lomeyer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Besides, you can't really blame people for doing their jobs...Most Britannian soldiers and police officers had nothing to do with their government's actions, they didn't choose to invade Japan. They are just there doing their jobs, most probably just want to do their time and get the hell out and go back to their families and friends.
Be that as it may, they signed up for this, and frankly most will gleefully do some evil shit if asked. They took the risk.
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Old 2010-02-15, 12:17   Link #22567
Paladinoras
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
From an ideological point of view Britannia has no right to be in Japan. I guess that's why Kallen can rationalize her murdering cops and soldiers. However, the moment Japan lost the war, which it was partially responsible for, Britannia ceased to be the conqueror and inherited all the responsibilities of the previous government. So, Britannia does have a right to protect its territories, and terrorists kinda get in the way of that.

Not only are these guys killing mostly other Elevens, but they're also preventing the reconstruction process, which is why they're stuck in ghettos. Nobody wants to have their cities looking like shit, and we see that Britannia is no exception, in R2 they are rebuilding Shinjiku...

Besides, you can't really blame people for doing their jobs...Most Britannian soldiers and police officers had nothing to do with their government's actions, they didn't choose to invade Japan. They are just there doing their jobs, most probably just want to do their time and get the hell out and go back to their families and friends.
As for the part about Britannia rebuilding Japan, you just have to agree that is just a load of shit. Britannia will rebuild places where Britannians can live in, the Elevens can stay and die in the ghetto for all they care.

And while I do agree that they are just doing their jobs, doesn't the job of a policeman or army soldier entail the possibility of getting killed in the line of duty? I mean, those Britannians applied (or enlisted, I guess) for the job knowing full well that they are in a volatile nation and could get themselves killed pretty easily. Plus, it don't help that usually, the squad leaders are racist bastards who shoot and kill Elevens for fun. Generally, when soldiers see their commanding officer do something, they follow and feel no remorse at all.
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Old 2010-02-15, 13:42   Link #22568
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Not to mention that many of them are doing it for the sake of their nobility, especially the Purists.
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Old 2010-02-15, 21:59   Link #22569
Arbitres
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-sigh- I did this in the Spinzaku one, so i'll do it for Kallen-chan, too.

Kallen has three or more reasons to combat and liberate japan from it's recent occupation.

1) She wants it as a free land, not some 'Area' Britannians own.
2) She wants to avenge Naoto.
3) She wants to live with her mother (After the refrain incident)

That is all from what i've seen. If it doesn't fit your perspective, then by all means, say so. Because chances are, you're going to anyways.

Kallen has the right, and capacity to kill her enemies that have taken over japan. They would kill her, as well. Since she is a terrorist, and later revolutionist. She can think, or not about taking enemy soldier lives. They are responsible with their own, if they want to fight for their ideals, then that is understandable, as Kallen does the same.

Kallen fights for her ideals. So do the Britannians. Neither are wrong, but neither are right in the strictest sense.

But in the spotlight, Kallen is more sensible, as she simply wants to liberate a occupied land from prejudice conquerors.

Are we done? If so, then could someone gimme Kallen's height? I've been wondering for awhile how short/tall she is.
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Old 2010-02-15, 22:31   Link #22570
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Solstice Cross View Post
-sigh- I did this in the Spinzaku one, so i'll do it for Kallen-chan, too.

Kallen has three or more reasons to combat and liberate japan from it's recent occupation.

1) She wants it as a free land, not some 'Area' Britannians own.
2) She wants to avenge Naoto.
3) She wants to live with her mother (After the refrain incident)

That is all from what i've seen. If it doesn't fit your perspective, then by all means, say so. Because chances are, you're going to anyways.

Kallen has the right, and capacity to kill her enemies that have taken over japan. They would kill her, as well. Since she is a terrorist, and later revolutionist. She can think, or not about taking enemy soldier lives. They are responsible with their own, if they want to fight for their ideals, then that is understandable, as Kallen does the same.

Kallen fights for her ideals. So do the Britannians. Neither are wrong, but neither are right in the strictest sense.

But in the spotlight, Kallen is more sensible, as she simply wants to liberate a occupied land from prejudice conquerors.
I agree.
Kallen has every right to fight to help liberate Japan.
It was clearly the driving force behind all that she did.
The three reasons you gave are spot on I think from what we see in the anime.
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Old 2010-02-15, 22:36   Link #22571
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Pretty much.

She is roughly 5' 3"/160 cm tall, as are Sayoko and C. C..
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Old 2010-02-15, 22:51   Link #22572
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....Thanks, I've been wondering. Since it never (in the anime) tells you. That, and I wanted it for.. other reasons >_>;

Beyond all that, I would like to know other info of similiar nation, but i'd probably be called pervert, oh well. Here goes:

Weight, bustline, bloodtype. Anything of particuliar information. I'm intending to place it in a FF im writing, which i'm also currently stuck at writing.

c'mon, everyone luvs Solstice! C'mon... help ya fellow Kallen fan! We are basically kin, yeah?!
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Old 2010-02-15, 23:01   Link #22573
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Kallen's blood type is B according to both the S1 and R2 guidbooks (I just checked )
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Old 2010-02-16, 00:12   Link #22574
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I thought her height is 5''7' and use her blood type is B. Birthday is March 29th Aries.
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Old 2010-02-16, 00:22   Link #22575
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Does anybody know why Lelouch doesn't remember Kallen when she is in a bunny suit? I know the emperor erase three things from his mind 1) nun. 2)royalty 3)being zero but shouldn't he be able to recognize her since they were classmates and Kallen was part of the student council. I remember an episode where he was asking if Suzaku can pardon Kallen since they are like family (student council) and that is when he is suppose to pretend his memory was erased.
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Old 2010-02-16, 00:54   Link #22576
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Knightrunner View Post
Does anybody know why Lelouch doesn't remember Kallen when she is in a bunny suit? I know the emperor erase three things from his mind 1) nun. 2)royalty 3)being zero but shouldn't he be able to recognize her since they were classmates and Kallen was part of the student council. I remember an episode where he was asking if Suzaku can pardon Kallen since they are like family (student council) and that is when he is suppose to pretend his memory was erased.
He didn't recognize her because he was too obsessed with Shirley at that point.

Actually no...

But seriously, Charles erased and replaced all of Lelouch's memories, thus he no longer knew Kallen because at that point in R2 she was fugitive/rebel.

He only remembered her when CC gave him a stiffy by kissing him on the lips, then everything came back to him in a flash of Ooh-la-la!

I should probably add that in Episode 1 of R2 Lelouch doesn't remember he was Zero, nor does he remember CC, nor Kallen, nor anything about his involvement with the Black Knights (according to the official Bandai release which is the only thing I go by at this point since I DO NOT trust fansubs, nor condone them for that matter).

Once CC finds Lelouch in the hotel/casino, she gets shot by the Britannian Special Intel/Ops group that's watching Lelouch, then she comes back to life, kisses Lulu on the lips, and restores his Geass and his memories.
After that Lelouch orders the Britannian Spec Ops team to shoot themselves then Kallen and one of the Four Holy Swords crash into the chamber and bow to "Master Zero" at the end of the episode.
Only then does Lelouch remember Kallen, the BKs, CC, and that he was Zero.

Hope that answers your question.

Last edited by GundamFan0083; 2010-02-16 at 01:07. Reason: Added which episode.
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Old 2010-02-16, 00:54   Link #22577
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Knightrunner View Post
Does anybody know why Lelouch doesn't remember Kallen when she is in a bunny suit? I know the emperor erase three things from his mind 1) nun. 2)royalty 3)being zero but shouldn't he be able to recognize her since they were classmates and Kallen was part of the student council. I remember an episode where he was asking if Suzaku can pardon Kallen since they are like family (student council) and that is when he is suppose to pretend his memory was erased.
He remembers Kallen, but it's been a year since he's seen her and you can forget a face in that time. No doubt his memories of her are also likely blurred by being largely related to Zero.
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Old 2010-02-16, 00:57   Link #22578
Rising Dragon
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To further the whole face-forgetting thing, Lelouch himself didn't really start interacting with Kallen the student until he discovered about her dual-life as a terrorist. That likely limits his memories of her due to the memories of being Zero being sealed.
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Old 2010-02-16, 01:34   Link #22579
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That makes sense. I'm making sure it isn't bad writing or anything. lol because I remember In a sound drama how he studied every students statistics and he remembered every single one of them. And that is how he first met Rivalts.

I'm just making sure his memory of Kallen wasn't completely wiped because suzaku should have deduced his memory came back if he remembers kallen when he is suppose to play anmesia. So Kallen is part of his memories even in anmesia state, but he should have at least show some type of sign that says "she looks familiar" or something.
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Old 2010-02-16, 01:39   Link #22580
morbosfist
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That makes sense. I'm making sure it isn't bad writing or anything. lol because I remember In a sound drama how he studied every students statistics and he remembered every single one of them. And that is how he first met Rivalts.

I'm just making sure his memory of Kallen wasn't completely wiped because suzaku should have deduced his memory came back if he remembers kallen when he is suppose to play anmesia. So Kallen is part of his memories even in anmesia state, but he should have at least show some type of sign that says "she looks familiar" or something.
His memory of Kallen couldn't be wiped. She was in his class. There are tons of pictures of her. Hiding her existence is impossible. She was an exposed terrorist after the Black Rebellion, so he can be forgiven for not recognizing her as a bunny. Besides, the bunny outfit isn't exactly designed to show off the face.
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