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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-08-21, 12:49   Link #201
Macbrother
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Saru only made it a point of stopping the 4th being summoned coz not only would it be hard fighting two Hokages, imagine fighting three.
Eh, there seems a little more to it than that. Sarutobi saw the names on the coffins coming up, he knew clearly the final one would be Yondaime, and made it a point to stop that coffin "no matter what." That seems a little more to me than just "fighting two is easier than three." Don't get me wrong, what you're saying is also true, but Sarutobi's voice and his words seem to imply he especially must stop the 3rd summon, not just because it would be fighting against three, but he would be fighting against the strength of Yondaime.

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The 4th couldn't be very stronger than Oro or there wouldn't have been any question for the next Hokage, as the 3rd said Oro was rejected because he's twisted, not because he was weaker.
Well, Anko didn't seem to think there would be a problem "if only he were here" in dealing with Orochimaru. When that comparison (for choosing hokage was made), Yondaime was what, a good 12-15 years younger than Orochimaru? Early twenties at the latest? I think that speaks a pretty good bit about his genius and ability for him to even be in the league of the sannin, much less "slightly stronger."

I agree that Sarutobi was probably the strongest in his prime. Iruka said this explicitly, and Orochimaru of course called him the 'god of the shinobi.' I do think however, had Yondaime had time to enter his prime, he would've surpassed the 3rd. I mean, by his early twenties he had created arguably the ultimate jutsu in Naruto (Shiki Fuujin) and the Rasengan. Not to mention he had an incredible chakra capacity (summoned Gamabunta), and great sealing ability. (Jiraiya remarked how precise the Kyuubi's seal was, wheras he could tell immediately the roughness of Orochimaru's seal). Unfortunatley, since his life was cut short, we won't ever know his true strength unless Kishimoto delves into his past.
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Old 2004-08-21, 14:35   Link #202
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Originally Posted by Macbrother
Well, Anko didn't seem to think there would be a problem "if only he were here" in dealing with Orochimaru.
Actually you made up stuff on this sentence : indeed it would be good if the 4th would be still alive to handle someone like Oro, but she certainely didn't say, haha the 4th could whip Oro's ass any day.

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When that comparison (for choosing hokage was made), Yondaime was what, a good 12-15 years younger than Orochimaru? Early twenties at the latest? I think that speaks a pretty good bit about his genius and ability for him to even be in the league of the sannin, much less "slightly stronger."
12~15 years younger than the Sannin means about Kakashi's current age, ie 25~26 years old, I would say that he was in his prime.

Now did Yondaime would have become stronger (and I mean significantly stronger) than the Sannin and possibly than the God of the Shinobi himself at his best?
Maybe, how can I know? How can you know?
But we talk about what they are or were, not what they could have been.
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Old 2004-08-21, 19:13   Link #203
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Actually you made up stuff on this sentence : indeed it would be good if the 4th would be still alive to handle someone like Oro, but she certainely didn't say, haha the 4th could whip Oro's ass any day.
lol, I never quoted or implied Anko as saying that, now who's the one making stuff up?

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12~15 years younger than the Sannin means about Kakashi's current age, ie 25~26 years old, I would say that he was in his prime.
That's not the point. Sarutobi had 50+ years to establish his legend and ability, Yondaime had 25. Big difference. And honestly, do you believe Kakashi is as strong as he's gonna get at 25~26? Jeeze, I'd hope not. They aren't like atheletes in sports, I don't think shinobi start to level off at ~25, I'd probably say it's more like 35-40.

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Now did Yondaime would have become stronger (and I mean significantly stronger) than the Sannin and possibly than the God of the Shinobi himself at his best?
Maybe, how can I know? How can you know
I never said we could know, but based on his abilities and genius up to that point, it seems probable.

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But we talk about what they are or were, not what they could have been.
Yes, hence

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I agree that Sarutobi was probably the strongest in his prime. Iruka said this explicitly, and Orochimaru of course called him the 'god of the shinobi.'
The rest is side dicussion.
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Last edited by Macbrother; 2004-08-21 at 19:23.
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Old 2004-08-21, 20:18   Link #204
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Originally Posted by UserName
Oro did not take on 2 sannins wihtout his arms nor is he the strongest. Tsunade easily handleded Oro quite easily. Jiraiya was drugged up. While Oro had his extremely capable assitant Jiraiya had no one. So no he did not hold is own even 1 bit agaisnt Tsunade and he is not the strongest. Oro admits Itachi is stronger than him, look at his fighting style. Jiraiya is equal or stronger to him admitted by Itachi. And the 4th seems to have a similar fighting style to Jiraiya and it seems he's stronger than Jiraiya I think that's obvious enough. So the 4th should be able to beat Itachi also.

Oro hasn't gotten any weaker. I think the point of his immortality jutsu is to not get weaker by getting an old body...

The 3rd was still very old when Kyuubi attacked. He was definitely not in his prime. And the 4th beat Kyuubi with a combination of a huge summon and jutsu. The 3rd knows that jutsu but not sure if he has a huge summon like that to grasp hold of Kyuubi. And anyways like I siad the 3rd was still old then. Around his late 50s. And it has been stated many times that the 3rd was the strongest ninja alive hwne he was in his prime, by Oro, and the entire village. Though the 4th was the greatest probably becuase of his accomplishments.

And how old was the 4th compared to Oro during the 'hokage selection'? I'm sure the 4th would have grown and surpassed Oro sometime between that to the sealing of Kyuubi.
yes yes, true.

As for the 4th and 3rd, we can really ever know for sure, since the 4th died at such a younge age.. so think what you like.

Oro's immortality thingy is to prevent weakness from old age, but also, it will alow him to live theorticly forever, in which case he could train and invent new techniqques until he is more or less untouchable.

And my point still stand on naruto, even though its yet to be challanged
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Old 2004-08-21, 20:55   Link #205
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Originally Posted by Macbrother
lol, I never quoted or implied Anko as saying that, now who's the one making stuff up?
Still you.
You said that Anko seemed to think that Oro wouldn't be a problem if the 4th was alive which is simply completely wrong.

The 3rd was saying that no-one could stand up against Oro in Konoha including most likely himself anymore and Anko just said 'if the 4th was still alive', ie there would be someone able to stand up against Oro.

You implied that this sentence made look the 4th stronger than Oro whereas it merely shows that the 4th could fight equally against him.

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That's not the point. Sarutobi had 50+ years to establish his legend and ability, Yondaime had 25. Big difference. And honestly, do you believe Kakashi is as strong as he's gonna get at 25~26? Jeeze, I'd hope not. They aren't like atheletes in sports, I don't think shinobi start to level off at ~25, I'd probably say it's more like 35-40.
Actually yeah I think Kakashi has already reached his peak and that he will not suddenly become way more stronger than now, he can increase a little by training but not by far.
And they're totally like athlete and just like human in general, they didn't level down at ~25 because they have the experience of veterans, but they aren't in their prime anymore.

And it didn't take 50 years for the 3rd to establish his legend, like the strength of the Sannin was legendary whereas Tsunade quits being a Ninja since what? 25~30 years old?

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I never said we could know, but based on his abilities and genius up to that point, it seems probable.
We know barely a thing about the 4th, I see nothing in the manga which would imply that he would have become really stronger than the Sannin and the 3rd.
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Old 2004-08-21, 21:21   Link #206
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Still you.
You said that Anko seemed to think that Oro wouldn't be a problem if the 4th was alive which is simply completely wrong.

The 3rd was saying that no-one could stand up against Oro in Konoha including most likely himself anymore and Anko just said 'if the 4th was still alive', ie there would be someone able to stand up against Oro.

You implied that this sentence made look the 4th stronger than Oro whereas it merely shows that the 4th could fight equally against him.
What would be the point of her even bringing up the 4th if he wouldn't be able to handle Orochimaru? If he is only equal, the battle could go either way. Her saying "if the fourth were alive right now" implies to me they wouldn't even be having this conversation.

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Actually yeah I think Kakashi has already reached his peak and that he will not suddenly become way more stronger than now, he can increase a little by training but not by far.
And they're totally like athlete and just like human in general, they didn't level down at ~25 because they have the experience of veterans, but they aren't in their prime anymore.
No, they are totally unlike athletes. Do you think Sarutobi got his legendary status for being very fast or having good taijutsu? No, it was because of his vast jutsu knowledge and ability. Why do you think the most powerful shinobi in Konoha are over the age of 50? If they were athletes, they wouldn't even be remotely as skilled as even lesser talented 25 year-old athletes. If the worlds were comparable, a 50-year-old Michael Jordan would be able to defeat any 25-year-old NBA star. That is not the case, however. Physical strength and speed are actually a relatively small part of a shinobi's ability, it's the jutsu that matter, and it's the jutsu and intellect that win battles.

Kakashi could abosolutely increase his ability through experience and learning more jutsu. Yes, he is at peak physical condition right now, but being slightly slower and weaker at 35 but having much better jutsu or chakra capacity (which increases with experience, but doesn't seem to level off until way up in age, the sannin for instance at 50 still have a ridiculous amount) could make him more than twice as strong as he was 10 years ago.

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And it didn't take 50 years for the 3rd to establish his legend, like the strength of the Sannin was legendary whereas Tsunade quits being a Ninja since what? 25~30 years old?
We don't know how long it took for Sarutobi to establish the 'god of the shinobi' title. I highly doubt he got it at 25. Bringing up the sannin are meaningless, as Yondaime already has 'legendary' status as they do. We're talking about 'greatest of all time', not 'legendary.'

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We know barely a thing about the 4th, I see nothing in the manga which would imply that he would have become really stronger than the Sannin and the 3rd.
Like I already pointed out,

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I mean, by his early twenties he had created arguably the ultimate jutsu in Naruto (Shiki Fuujin) and the Rasengan. Not to mention he had an incredible chakra capacity (summoned Gamabunta), and great sealing ability. (Jiraiya remarked how precise the Kyuubi's seal was, wheras he could tell immediately the roughness of Orochimaru's seal).
Anbu&Aone's version had Jiraiya say of Yondaime, "His capabilities as a ninja were unrivaled in history." Now, the manga translation wasn't that superlative, but considering the above, and the age at which he did what he did, I don't think that's unreasonable.
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Old 2004-08-21, 21:32   Link #207
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Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha
Do you actually believe that? I like Gai, but he no match against Itachi, especially by his method of not looking at his eyes but at his feet.

Yup, we know this for sure because we saw this fight. I mean we know how Gai fights, and we know how Itachi fights.............oh wait.......we don't. Granted I don't think Gai would win, but who knows maybe he can, I mean I'm sure he's just as fast as Itachi. Don't make it sound so one sided
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Old 2004-08-21, 22:03   Link #208
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Originally Posted by Macbrother
What would be the point of her even bringing up the 4th if he wouldn't be able to handle Orochimaru? If he is only equal, the battle could go either way. Her saying "if the fourth were alive right now" implies to me they wouldn't even be having this conversation.
And that's why I said that you made up stuff, if the 4th was alive then there would be someone able to stand up against Oro whereas it's not the case in their situation, it's exactly what the 3rd was saying.

And not that the 4th was so strong than nobody could attack the Leaf, heck the war ended just 10 years ago.

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No, they are totally unlike athletes. Do you think Sarutobi got his legendary status for being very fast or having good taijutsu? No, it was because of his vast jutsu knowledge and ability. Why do you think the most powerful shinobi in Konoha are over the age of 50? If they were athletes, they wouldn't even be remotely as skilled as even lesser talented 25 year-old athletes.
Sarutobi get his legendary status for his overall fantastic abilities included Taijutsu, stamina and anything which made him the strongest.

Why the most powerful shinobi of Konoha are over their fifty?
Maybe because they're the God of the Shinobi and the Legendary Sannin. They're not strong because they're old, they're strong because they were so strong that they remain the strongest even in their oldness.
How many strong old ninjas did you see except them? None.

And yeah Sarutobi was way much stronger when he was younger.

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If the worlds were comparable, a 50-year-old Michael Jordan would be able to defeat any 25-year-old NBA star. That is not the case, however.
Congrat, you discovered that Shonen worlds are exaggerated.

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Physical strength and speed are actually a relatively small part of a shinobi's ability, it's the jutsu that matter, and it's the jutsu and intellect that win battles.
That's a bullshit plain and simple, physical abilities are as important as smartness and jutsu.
Experience can beat the strength of youth but there are limits to that, just re-read the last fight of the 3rd who lacked of chakra and thought that it was difficult to hold Enma in Kongou form.

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Kakashi could abosolutely increase his ability through experience and learning more jutsu. Yes, he is at peak physical condition right now, but being slightly slower and weaker at 35 but having much better jutsu or chakra capacity (which increases with experience, but doesn't seem to level off until way up in age, the sannin for instance at 50 still have a ridiculous amount) could make him more than twice as strong as he was 10 years ago.
His chakra capacity will increase with experience and decrease with the oldness of his body, the chakra is the mix of spiritual and physical energy.
The chakra is produced from stamina, which you lose with your physical condition.

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We don't know how long it took for Sarutobi to establish the 'god of the shinobi' title. I highly doubt he got it at 25. Bringing up the sannin are meaningless, as Yondaime already has 'legendary' status as they do. We're talking about 'greatest of all time', not 'legendary.'
We do know if we have a brain that he didn't get his reputation around the age he gave up the Hokage title because it's simply stupid.
He was called like that simply because he was the best ever.

Bringing the Sannin is meaningless? You said that the 4th was too young to have built his legend, I say that around the same age the Sannin were already legendary, it's exactly the same.

There isn't a time scale saying :
-Fantastic ninja : 5 years.
-Hero : 10 years.
-Legendary : 20 years.
-God of the Shinobi : 35 years.

It's a matter of strength and actions, not time.
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Old 2004-08-21, 22:39   Link #209
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Sarutobi get his legendary status for his overall fantastic abilities included Taijutsu, stamina and anything which made him the strongest.

Why the most powerful shinobi of Konoha are over their fifty?
Maybe because they're the God of the Shinobi and the Legendary Sannin. They're not strong because they're old, they're strong because they were so strong that they remain the strongest even in their oldness.
How many strong old ninjas did you see except them? None.

And yeah Sarutobi was way much stronger when he was younger.
That's circular logic. He's strong because he's the god of the shinobi or because he's a legendary sannin does nothing except restate your premise. I don't see many strong old ninjas because I don't see many old ninjas period. Of course, Sarutobi was stronger when he was younger, that's not in dispute.

The point of that message was that shinobi are very much unlike athletes. Athletes are tied almost solely to their physical condition, which starts to noticably decline at 35 or a bit before. Shinobi, however, are not solely bound to their physical condition. Even at the age of 50, they still retain knowledge of all of their jutsu, most of their chakra and even sharper intellect and can compete on the level or greater than shinobi much younger than them. This is not the case with an athlete.

Assume, for a minute, that Orochimaru is in his same 50 year old body. Do you think the Orochimaru of 25 could defeat the Orochimaru of 50, who has now Edo Tensei, much more experience, sharper wit, and whatever more jutsu he has picked up and/or created over 25 years? Hardly. Why? Because physical ability alone plays a much lesser role in shinobi strength than an athlete.

As for the Sarutobi/Orochimaru fight, yes, Sarutobi at 67 had lost much of his ability. But that is well beyond the age range of what we are discussing. In fact, Orochimaru admitted that he would probably lose to a Sarutobi who was merely 10 years younger. It appears that even at the age of 50ish shinobi still retain much if not most of their ability.

Quote:
His chakra capacity will increase with experience and decrease with the oldness of his body, the chakra is the mix of spiritual and physical energy.
The chakra is produced from stamina, which you lose with your physical condition.
Correct. Therefore, it's likely you can balance out the affect of age by increasing your experience, and therefore maintain an equivalent amount of chakra even in older age. It appears that only in extreme old age (Sarutobi's) does the effect of aging begin to seriously outweigh experience and therefore have a serious drop in chakra.

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We do know if we have a brain that he didn't get his reputation around the age he gave up the Hokage title because it's simply stupid.
He was called like that simply because he was the best ever.
Kyuubi was sealed 13 years ago, which would put Sarutobi at 54, if Yondaime were Hokage for a few years that would put Sarutobi at around ~50ish when he retired. I'm not saying he didn't get the title until he retired, but what I am saying that I think it's hardly likely he recieved "best ninja ever" at the young age of 25. In fact there is nothing to prove that, it's more likely he proved he was the best over a lifetime of action, at least until 40, maybe more.

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Bringing the Sannin is meaningless? You said that the 4th was too young to have built his legend, I say that around the same age the Sannin were already legendary, it's exactly the same.

There isn't a time scale saying :
-Fantastic ninja : 5 years.
-Hero : 10 years.
-Legendary : 20 years.
-God of the Shinobi : 35 years.

It's a matter of strength and actions, not time.
It's meaningless in this context, yes. I didn't say Yondaime didn't have enough time to build up a legend. He is Konoha's legendary Hokage, the sealer of the Nine-tails. The sannin and Yondaime are all legendary, that's not in dispute. The point was, did Yondaime have enough time to prove that he was the "best ninja ever," and I would say no, there's no telling what other jutsus and actions he could've taken which would've given him that title. Like you said, it's a matter of strength and actions. Sarutobi had time for many, many more actions than did the Fourth.
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Last edited by Macbrother; 2004-08-21 at 22:50.
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Old 2004-08-21, 23:19   Link #210
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Rather than athletes, I would compare ninja to martial artists. (Surprised no one else mentioned this so far.)
While physical conditioning is a huge factor, experience comes into play here and so yes, some of the best MA's alive are indeed waaay older than 25.


For the record, though, I agree with Hunter - part of the mystique of the Sannin is that they are this strong despite their age AND (in Jiraiya and Tsunade's cases) not being active for so many years. One can only wonder how strong they were in their mid-30's, still full-time shinobi and a dedicated team.

Yondaime's age - that's a tough one.

My first thoughts were that he would be of similar age to Mitarashi Anko, since she was trained by Oro who is in the same age bracket as Jiraiya.

But, Anko is 24 years old - younger than Kakashi.

So, looking at it a different way,
Kakashi = 26.
Jiraiya = 50.

Yondaime - (if alive, would be) somewhere in between. (26+50)/2 = 38 y.o.
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Old 2004-08-21, 23:32   Link #211
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For the record, though, I agree with Hunter - part of the mystique of the Sannin is that they are this strong despite their age AND (in Jiraiya and Tsunade's cases) not being active for so many years. One can only wonder how strong they were in their mid-30's, still full-time shinobi and a dedicated team.
Well, that's a tough argument, because besides the sannin, there are zero shinobi in that age bracket. There are the two comrades of Sarutobi on the council, but they are around his age, 65+. Aside from the sannin, we have no one that age (assuming many were killed off in earlier wars) to see if most 50 year olds have lost most of their chakra and ability, or if only the sannin are able to keep it that long.
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Old 2004-08-21, 23:41   Link #212
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who is sarutobi and yodaime don't flame me for not knowing him
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Old 2004-08-21, 23:42   Link #213
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No one can really say anything about the way Oro fights because we haven't really seen him fight at full strength. During the Sarutobi Vs. Oro fight he had the previous Hokages do his bidding for him, and against Jiraiya he was missing his arms.
He briefly fought Sarutobi in Melee combat thats about all if memory serves. If anyone mentions his fight against Sasuke I will slap them through a wall. If you think he was going all out you would have to be as biased as Lost World.

Edit - Sarutobi was the Third Hokage and Yondaime was the Fourth Hokage, Osmoses.
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Old 2004-08-22, 02:52   Link #214
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I voted for the fourth.

I would like to know exactly why everyone is convinced that Itachi is SO powerful. I would like to point out that Gai can defeat Itachi. Itachi's strength lies in his Sharingan, so an opponent skilled in Taijutsu deprives him of his "seeing" advantage. Also, Itachi's best techniques require his opponent to make eye contact. An opponent who doesn't need to see, such as Zabuza in the mist, or one who can read movement without looking at the face, such as Gai, who watches footwork, eliminates the possibility of Itachi's most powerful techniques having effect. His abilities, while devastating, have too many easy counters to make him an effective fighter. He is far too specialized a fighter to be considered, in my opinion, the strongest, or even one of the strongest.
Next, I will attempt to explain why I believe the fourth is the strongest. As seen in the Orochimaru/Sandaime battle, the soul-sealing technique requires the soul of the opponent to be forcibly removed from the opponent. This requires a certain degree of restraining the opponent while their soul is removed, and also requires the spiritual and physical energies to actually overwhelm the opponent. This said, the fourth had to have had, to some degree, power surpassing that of the Kyuubi, a power which allowed him to forcefully rip the spirit of the Kyuubi from its body and transplant it elsewhere. This suggests that the use of his mental and physical resources, applied against a lesser opponent than the great demon fox, would be simply devastating. His power was so great that the current hokage, Sarutobi, granted him the title of hokage upon his death, an acknowledgement of both his sacrifice for Konoha and of his great power and achievement.
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Old 2004-08-22, 03:22   Link #215
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Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha
Do you actually believe that? I like Gai, but he no match against Itachi, especially by his method of not looking at his eyes but at his feet.
As for the opinion of the person who submitted this...
Gai is quite a match for Itachi. As a pure-taijutsu fighter, part of Gai's expertise lies in being able to follow movement by watching the body, not the face. And unlike genjutsu and other forms of attack, the sharingan eyes cannot see through a taijutsu attack. With both of his major advantages gone, Itachi might still present a challenge, but for a master of speed and power like Gai, that challenge is equivalent to fighting Kakashi. As seen in the fight between Kakashi and Itachi, Itachi's only true advantage lies in his superior use of the Sharingan.
Keep in mind that Gai has 50 wins to Kakashi's 49, though it's quite possible that that's the win count for the rock-paper-scissors games they play...
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Old 2004-08-22, 03:29   Link #216
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Originally Posted by BlankZero
I would like to know exactly why everyone is convinced that Itachi is SO powerful. I would like to point out that Gai can defeat Itachi. Itachi's strength lies in his Sharingan, so an opponent skilled in Taijutsu deprives him of his "seeing" advantage. Also, Itachi's best techniques require his opponent to make eye contact. An opponent who doesn't need to see, such as Zabuza in the mist, or one who can read movement without looking at the face, such as Gai, who watches footwork, eliminates the possibility of Itachi's most powerful techniques having effect. His abilities, while devastating, have too many easy counters to make him an effective fighter. He is far too specialized a fighter to be considered, in my opinion, the strongest, or even one of the strongest.
Next, I will attempt to explain why I believe the fourth is the strongest. As seen in the Orochimaru/Sandaime battle, the soul-sealing technique requires the soul of the opponent to be forcibly removed from the opponent. This requires a certain degree of restraining the opponent while their soul is removed, and also requires the spiritual and physical energies to actually overwhelm the opponent. This said, the fourth had to have had, to some degree, power surpassing that of the Kyuubi, a power which allowed him to forcefully rip the spirit of the Kyuubi from its body and transplant it elsewhere. This suggests that the use of his mental and physical resources, applied against a lesser opponent than the great demon fox, would be simply devastating. His power was so great that the current hokage, Sarutobi, granted him the title of hokage upon his death, an acknowledgement of both his sacrifice for Konoha and of his great power and achievement.
So many things wrong, where to begin

Sharingan is an advantage against taijutsu, as it allows you to read and predict your opponent's movement and defend accordingly. When Lee was fighting Sasuke, Sasuke's body was too slow to react, and thus couldn't deal with it. This is not a flaw inherent to the Sharingan, just a lack of skill by Sasuke. Keep in mind Kakashi, who cannot even use the Sharingan to its full extent, can keep up with Gai's speed, seeing as how they are rivals of about equal skill. If Kakashi can deal with Gai, then Itachi, who is far more skilled and has absolutely mastered the Sharingan, should also be able to. We have also seen little of Itachi's non-Sharingan skills, but during their fight, Kakashi understood that Itachi wasn't going all out, yet he was still untouched while Kakashi's defeat was imminent. Itachi used his Sharingan the first time to show off to Kakashi and the second time to escape an otherwise inescapable jutsu. We'll have to see him fight more before we can judge his skills, but he was able to wipe out the entire Uchiha clan and still have the energy to use the Mangekyou Sharingan, so it's obviously not the only weapon he has.

I don't know how the fourth would be able to hold Kyuubi while he pulled its soul out. Kyuubi's power is shown to be far greater than anything else introduced in the series so far, so I don't think the fourth got up close and personal to Kyuubi when he sealed it. Even if he did, more than likely with the help of Gamabunta to restrain Kyuubi, and not his strength alone. To be able to seal Kyuubi does show a lot of strength, but I don't think he had to grab Kyuubi by it's shoulders while he was sealing it the way Sarutobi did with the others. Also, he became Hokage before Kyuubi attacked.
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Old 2004-08-22, 09:08   Link #217
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
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Itachi is extremely powerful.

However there are many many ways to fight the sharingan.

As gai pointed out, you can avoid the sharingan useres eyes.

You can fight like zabuza did by concealing yourself in mist.

The 2'nd hokage's jutsu of complete darkness would also work well.

In other words there are various ways to counter Itachi's powrful doujutu (eye genjutsu).

Kakashi's mistake was that he naively tried to take it on eye for eye.

We have seen that sannin are not to be fooled around with. Tsunade is friggen regenerating entire body parts, Jiraiya is using some crazy giant jutsus like that swamp of the underworld he summoned to drown oro's snakes.

ETC.

Simply put.

We cannot place itachi versus the other sannin or hokages because we dont know how good itachi is without his sharingan.

Is his taijutsu better than Gai's ? Highly doubt it. Better than tsunade's ? Highly doubt it.

Itachi is my favourite character but at this point i do not think he is the strongest Ninja of all time.

From what we have seen Itachi is very honest and to the point. He never beats around the bush and he said it with his own mouth to Kisame in regards to jiraiya.
"We would both likely die even if we faced him together"

One on one, in their prime, i doubt itachi could beat any of the sannin. But the keyword here is "prime"

The sannin are much older now, and Itachi \himself is going to get even stronger in the next few years.

Orochimaru is scared of itachi because of the number of jutsu itachi knows. To oro jutsu number represents strength. He has made this clear several tiimes.
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Old 2004-08-22, 09:19   Link #218
ChildGamez
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The wolf of mibu has good points, but I still think that Itachi is going to be Legendary strong in his prime.... So my vote goes for Itachi ... but I might be wrong ..
Sad that Gaara wasn't on vote list because my top 4 for future ninjas's is:
Naruto, Sasuke, Gaara and Neji
Everyone showing great potential and because I believe Gaara is going to be Kazekage in the future..
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Old 2004-08-22, 10:14   Link #219
Animizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
Is his taijutsu better than Gai's ? Highly doubt it. Better than tsunade's ? Highly doubt it.
Have you considered that even without the Sharingan Itachi's knows tons of jutsu's and more importantly does them so fast. Kakashi remarked that he could barely see Itachi performing the seals. This gives Itachi one big advantage even though his strenght is most likely not comparable to Tsunade's his taijutsu could very well be equal to Gai, just like Sasuke caught up with Lee thanks to the sharingan.
Even if Gai found a way to avoid his Look. The fact remains he still has it. His speed and incredible jutu's could force Gai and Tsunade too for that matter in a situation where they cannot escape his Sharingan.

Quote:
From what we have seen Itachi is very honest and to the point. He never beats around the bush and he said it with his own mouth to Kisame in regards to jiraiya. "We would both likely die even if we faced him together"
Yeah...this is still kind of unclear to me, are they realy talking about Jirayia? or Jiraya and Naruto with risk of Naruto going all out in his Kyuubi form...You are probably right but remember Itachi was fatigued because of the former fight. he avoided fighting Jirayia wich doens't mean he was incapable of beating him.

Quote:
Orochimaru is scared of itachi because of the number of jutsu itachi knows. To oro jutsu number represents strength. He has made this clear several tiimes.
Orochimaru is not the kind of person to simply stand down and swallow if someone knows "more Jutsu's" He will try everything to reach his goal and by any means. Clearly when he stated Itachi was too strong he was talking about overall strenght...not just Jutsu's.

My point being, Itachi is the strongest character we've seen so far.
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Old 2004-08-22, 11:53   Link #220
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animizzle
Have you considered that even without the Sharingan Itachi's knows tons of jutsu's and more importantly does them so fast. Kakashi remarked that he could barely see Itachi performing the seals. This gives Itachi one big advantage even though his strenght is most likely not comparable to Tsunade's his taijutsu could very well be equal to Gai, just like Sasuke caught up with Lee thanks to the sharingan.
Even if Gai found a way to avoid his Look. The fact remains he still has it. His speed and incredible jutu's could force Gai and Tsunade too for that matter in a situation where they cannot escape his Sharingan.
I didnt say anything else about his ninjutsu. I was merely pointing out that Itachi has not given us a chance to see his other skills. His brief fight with Kkakashi was only determined by mange sharingan. Kakashi was skilled enough to see through all of Itachi's attacks. Itachi even commended him on his eye of insight which was "lightning fast". I was giving an example of taijutsu. As far as the ninjutsu department WE JUST DONT KNOW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Animizzle
Yeah...this is still kind of unclear to me, are they realy talking about Jirayia? or Jiraya and Naruto with risk of Naruto going all out in his Kyuubi form...You are probably right but remember Itachi was fatigued because of the former fight. he avoided fighting Jirayia wich doens't mean he was incapable of beating him.
No they were talking about Jiraiya. Theres no ambiguity about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Animizzle
Orochimaru is not the kind of person to simply stand down and swallow if someone knows "more Jutsu's" He will try everything to reach his goal and by any means. Clearly when he stated Itachi was too strong he was talking about overall strenght...not just Jutsu's.
I understand what you mean, but you need to see what im saying. Im saying we cannot take orochimarus statement that Itachi is stronger than him as proof that Itachi is stronger than the sannin. That is Orochimaruo alone. And furthermore Orochimaru is infatuated and obsessed with jutsu numbers. He has said many many times that number of jutsu is what makes you strong. Two episodes ago jiraiya had to tell him that jutsu number is not what is important. What is important is a spirit that never gives up. Just because Orochimaru is unconfident about beating Itachi, doesnt mean that Jiraiya and Tsunade are goin to lose to itachi.

Just the same way that Itachi saying Jiraiya will hand kisame and him their asses, isnt neccessarily true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Animizzle
My point being, Itachi is the strongest character we've seen so far.
So far weve seen itachi fight kakashi, where kakashi was able to keep up with him until he used mange sharingan.

Weve seen itachi kick sasukes ass.

Weve seen itachi run from jiraiya.

Ofcourse there are reasons for all of this, like itachi was low on chakra. But my point is you cannot say he is the strongest character when we have not even seen what he can truly do nor have we seen him face anyone stronger than a jounin.

Personally i believe Itachi is extremely strong obviously, but at his current age he is still not as powerful as the sannin were in their prime.

But thats just my opinion. All I can say is that when naruto hits his prime, he will be the god of all shinobi ^^. Not just because he is the main chracter but because by then his knowledge, spirit, and kyubi mastery will make him unstoppable.
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