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Old 2010-02-26, 11:54   Link #6281
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
A lot of countries are over-reliant on a particular indistry, and most of that time, that's because they don't have anything else to trade. Also, what can a country like Greece, which has been having problems long before the Euro was even introduced, invest on? And not just Greece, but countries like the ones I mentioned. This is why it was a bad idea for countries to adopt the Euro. If anything, it should've been limited to a smaller number of countries that could contribute something to it.
Now that you have mentioned it, Greece adopted the Euro probably to ride out of their financial problems. It created a bigger problem for them because they are unable to contribute to the Euro's strength.

Quote:
It's no different in Italy and, for example, France (Narona can correct me on this if I'm wrong). The problem with them is that when you get a job, you get a job for life and receive too many benefits, which is what's causing a lot of problems for businesses, both big and small. This is especially true in the public sector, and people can even find a job if they don't have experience or qualifications. All you need are friends with high positions.
I think that is equivalent to corruption as string pulling. It undermines merit and damages the education system, which in turn, damages the innovative capability of the next generation.

Sounds like a pretty big shit. I am going to read a little more before making my next post, I don't believe that Greece is going to be a failed state, or the Euro is going to take damage until it is worthless.

EDIT :

I did another check and if what Wiki said is true about Greece having a high level of political corruption, that could be a damaging cause that could hinder its recovery. Usually countries with maritime advantages do not go down so easily in terms of economic damage as long as they have a strong control of corruption, the port-of-call taxes are incredibly profitable and easy to capitalise on (because shipments HAVE to pass through your country no matter what cargo they are carrying or where they are going, unless they want to sink or get stranded somewhere in the Atlantic) with the right protocols and book-keeping to ensure that the money goes where it should (building the country).
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2010-02-26 at 12:06.
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Old 2010-02-26, 12:21   Link #6282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
That's the difference between the US and the EU, you see. Each state in the US defers to a single government whose leader is based in Washington DC. The EU has no such leader, but simply a delegation of country representatives, each one with their own government. Like you say, other countries did not contribute to the Euro's strength, oftentimes because it couldn't. Take some countries like Slovakia, Slovenia or even Malta, all of which have adopted the Euro but don't exactly have much to contribute compared to Germany, France or Italy. You can't compare their productivity to bigger players in the Eurozone at all, nor do they have vast reserves of gold. Plus, each one has its own government rather than relying on a single governing body the way a (poorer) state in the US would. There's too much of a separation and individuality in Europe compared to the US.
i see the current Eu as something like the confederation of states in the US after the Independence war. You had 13 states each going their own way with a weak central government. Europeans are going to have to decide whether they want EU with a strong central federal government or dissolve the EU and the euro. This sort of halfway governemnt that is the current Eu just doesn't work in the long term.
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Old 2010-02-26, 12:24   Link #6283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i see the current Eu as something like the confederation of states in the US after the Independence war. You had 13 states each going their own way with a weak central government. Europeans are going to have to decide whether they want EU with a strong central federal government or dissolve the EU and the euro. This sort of halfway governemnt that is the current Eu just doesn't work in the long term.
I agree, and the way things are going, it certainly looks like it's going to be the latter option. And that's what's scaring me so much. If the EU is dissolved, so will my permit to work in the UK, and there's no way in hell for me, like much of the younger generation, to find work in Italy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I did another check and if what Wiki said is true about Greece having a high level of political corruption, that could be a damaging cause that could hinder its recovery. Usually countries with maritime advantages do not go down so easily in terms of economic damage as long as they have a strong control of corruption, the port-of-call taxes are incredibly profitable and easy to capitalise on (because shipments HAVE to pass through your country no matter what cargo they are carrying or where they are going, unless they want to sink or get stranded somewhere in the Atlantic) with the right protocols and book-keeping to ensure that the money goes where it should (building the country).
So you can see why Greece and Italy are so similar. That's probably also why our govt in Italy is so broken. Berlusconi has been the only politician in Italy to have stayed in office for more than one year since Mussolini, which is saying a lot about how things are run here. I do not remember a single politician in Italy staying in power for more than six months since I was born, for that matter. The Italian Parliament is just a din full of old, dry, power hungry money leechers whose minds have rotten with age.
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Old 2010-02-26, 12:35   Link #6284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i see the current Eu as something like the confederation of states in the US after the Independence war. You had 13 states each going their own way with a weak central government. Europeans are going to have to decide whether they want EU with a strong central federal government or dissolve the EU and the euro. This sort of halfway governemnt that is the current Eu just doesn't work in the long term.
I don't agree with dissolving the Euro and Europe. The job loss rate and the economic fallout is going to create alot more failed states than it was before the Europe.

Also, it is going to create massive damage to the world economy : decentralising a globally used form of credit is going to mess up our largely computerised trade infrastructure because it is going to mean re-programming millions of computers and re-building accounting software at a more complex level. It is the number 2 most traded currency in the world, dissolving it is not an option unless we can count on China to peg their currency as tradable, currently impossible because of its valuation (need to slash a couple of zeroes off the back), its currency security (not enough done to make it less forgable) and the local corruption within its government.

Besides, according to Wiki (don't know if it is true or false), 150 million people in Africa use currencies pegged to the Euro, dissolving it is as good as blowing them back to Stone age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
So you can see why Greece and Italy are so similar. That's probably also why our govt in Italy is so broken. Berlusconi has been the only politician in Italy to have stayed in office for more than one year since Mussolini, which is saying a lot about how things are run here. I do not remember a single politician in Italy staying in power for more than six months since I was born, for that matter. The Italian Parliament is just a din full of old, dry, power hungry money leechers whose minds have rotten with age.
They do have a strength though : naval defence technology. I guess only the Chief Of Navy is the only one working.

Besides most politicians are like that. You can't blame them, so as to quote Erwin Rommel :

Men are basically smart or dumb and lazy or ambitious. The dumb and ambitious ones are dangerous and I get rid of them. The dumb and lazy ones I give mundane duties. The smart ambitious ones I put on my staff. The smart and lazy ones I make my commanders.

Yeah, that is why they end up at the top, and there isn't enough smart and ambitious ones to clean up the mess they make.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-02-26, 12:50   Link #6285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
I agree, and the way things are going, it certainly looks like it's going to be the latter option. And that's what's scaring me so much. If the EU is dissolved, so will my permit to work in the UK, and there's no way in hell for me, like much of the younger generation, to find work in Italy.



So you can see why Greece and Italy are so similar. That's probably also why our govt in Italy is so broken. Berlusconi has been the only politician in Italy to have stayed in office for more than one year since Mussolini, which is saying a lot about how things are run here. I do not remember a single politician in Italy staying in power for more than six months since I was born, for that matter. The Italian Parliament is just a din full of old, dry, power hungry money leechers whose minds have rotten with age.
isn't that basically because he owns the Italian media?
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Old 2010-02-26, 12:58   Link #6286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
isn't that basically because he owns the Italian media?
He owns the largest broadcasting company in Italy called Mediaset which comprises of three of the six most viewed channels: Rete4, Canale5 and Italia1. He made his way to power through media, propaganda and smart use of advertising. This is why I hate the media. People use this tool for their own gain.
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Old 2010-02-26, 13:20   Link #6287
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
He owns the largest broadcasting company in Italy called Mediaset which comprises of three of the six most viewed channels: Rete4, Canale5 and Italia1. He made his way to power through media, propaganda and smart use of advertising. This is why I hate the media. People use this tool for their own gain.
Not if you are the thinking one. If you can spot the flaws broadcasted by the media and turn it against them (but not totally, just correcting them here and there, but still agree with them to avoid trouble for the start), that amount of credibility earned is really strong. Once you have enough people on your side, topple them.

I credit my scores in current affairs essays to that tactic. And I believe successful revolutionaries credit their success to that tactic too. But there will be a new problem : Are you righter than them, or are you wrong too?

The only right thing about politics is to create a win-win situation for all, but personal enmity and grudge-bearing often get the better of politicians, and result in their descent into the tyrants they once overthrow. Take a look at the Bolshevik Revolution and how Stalin betrayed Trotsky - when one holds too much power, he/she fears it will be taken from him, which then turns things personal. It is the fear that makes the politicians untrustworthy and withdraws them from the society they want to serve, otherwise, they are mentally more productive as their peers as their ability to climb to that position is a tenement of their capabilities.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-02-26, 13:46   Link #6288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
In terms of competition against other larger financial powers, namely the US, it can be a good thing if those countries using the Euro were acting as one nation. The fact of the matter is that the Euro, and the European Union at that, were created was to imitate the US, but the truth is that this can never happen. Each country in Europe has its own history and culture, unlike in the US where the states have been part of a union for much of US history. They can't work well together as the US states do, and this recent crisis in Greece is proof enough. Despite the Euro's presence, each country still has its own individual economy. The theory you presented is correct, but as we can see, it didn't work like that in practice considering nothing much has changed for the EU member countries except for maybe Germany after the Euro was introduced after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
That's the difference between the US and the EU, you see. Each state in the US defers to a single government whose leader is based in Washington DC. The EU has no such leader, but simply a delegation of country representatives, each one with their own government. Like you say, other countries did not contribute to the Euro's strength, oftentimes because it couldn't. Take some countries like Slovakia, Slovenia or even Malta, all of which have adopted the Euro but don't exactly have much to contribute compared to Germany, France or Italy. You can't compare their productivity to bigger players in the Eurozone at all, nor do they have vast reserves of gold. Plus, each one has its own government rather than relying on a single governing body the way a (poorer) state in the US would. There's too much of a separation and individuality in Europe compared to the US.
An interesting note is that this is a pretty unique situation being analyzed.

The contrast you are drawing between the US and the EU would not have applied before. Originally, the US operated much as the EU did, with powerful states and a federal government which was restricted to the regulation of intra-state affairs (of course, the federal government was also tasked with foreign relations and established limitations of state power, but I don't think those are too relevant for this discussion). The early US had an advantage of being mostly English speaking, but cultures certainly varied, and the states lacked the communication advantages of today. The US operated in such a fashion, with one currency, for around a century's time before the federal government had usurped power.

Your argument does apply now, though, because it was after the US federal government had usurped power from its states that the gold standard was dropped. In fact, most every other currency adopted by a multi-national federation/union/empire/etc has been gold-backed or had intrinsic value. A friend noted the Warsaw Pact as an exception to this (personal trade was not done everywhere with the common currency, but a common currency was used), but he also pointed out that the Soviet work to control the currency makes it a poor comparison.

The EU's combination of governance and economic system is a fairly unprecedented situation. Valuable lessons will be (and are being) learned here, if the world will pay attention.
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Old 2010-02-26, 15:12   Link #6289
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Besides, according to Wiki (don't know if it is true or false), 150 million people in Africa use currencies pegged to the Euro, dissolving it is as good as blowing them back to Stone age.
It would hardly change anything, as the CFA Franc is pegged to the Euro only because the latter is the French currency.

If the Euro were to be abandoned, they would simply revert to being pegged to the French franc (which, according to poll, a substantial fraction of the French people regret) as the CFA Franc is guaranteed by the French treasury only, not the European Central Bank.

And the same goes for the Comorian Franc.

A big problem about the Euro, is that it was built around the Deutsche Mark, which was one of the hardest currency in the World, reflecting the policies and the economy of Germany. The others "big players", namely France and Italy, have on the contrary a long history of inflation, due to their economic, social and political settings.

So at the end, a weakened Germany simply cannot hold the Euro by itself, while the other major members are either large inflationist countries, prosperous but very small countries (BENELUX, Austria, Finland), and relatively large "developing" countries (Spain, Greece, Ireland), plus all the new members, which economies are far form being close to the German one.

It's no wonder that the U.K. , Denmark and Sweden stayed out of the Eurozone, and kept their own currencies. Why join an unsustainable hard currency when it's held only by one large economy, dragged down by large inflationist economies, and will be shaken by lots of developing economies; when your own currency is already hard enough?
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Old 2010-02-26, 16:14   Link #6290
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America's latest export... Tea Parties!

British Tea Party Movement to launch on Saturday
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Old 2010-02-26, 16:36   Link #6291
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
It would hardly change anything, as the CFA Franc is pegged to the Euro only because the latter is the French currency.

If the Euro were to be abandoned, they would simply revert to being pegged to the French franc (which, according to poll, a substantial fraction of the French people regret) as the CFA Franc is guaranteed by the French treasury only, not the European Central Bank.

And the same goes for the Comorian Franc.

A big problem about the Euro, is that it was built around the Deutsche Mark, which was one of the hardest currency in the World, reflecting the policies and the economy of Germany. The others "big players", namely France and Italy, have on the contrary a long history of inflation, due to their economic, social and political settings.

So at the end, a weakened Germany simply cannot hold the Euro by itself, while the other major members are either large inflationist countries, prosperous but very small countries (BENELUX, Austria, Finland), and relatively large "developing" countries (Spain, Greece, Ireland), plus all the new members, which economies are far form being close to the German one.

It's no wonder that the U.K. , Denmark and Sweden stayed out of the Eurozone, and kept their own currencies. Why join an unsustainable hard currency when it's held only by one large economy, dragged down by large inflationist economies, and will be shaken by lots of developing economies; when your own currency is already hard enough?
I am thinking about the fallout.....the Eurozone is created to consolidate a cooperative economy, then political and strategic alliance. They had to build an economic capability as an alliance first, but with that half-way done and if they are to drop it, especially when many other currencies are being traded against the Euro and that the greenback is losing its value, which other standard currency could be used as a global credit to trade against?
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-02-26, 17:10   Link #6292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I am thinking about the fallout.....the Eurozone is created to consolidate a cooperative economy, then political and strategic alliance. They had to build an economic capability as an alliance first, but with that half-way done and if they are to drop it, especially when many other currencies are being traded against the Euro and that the greenback is losing its value, which other standard currency could be used as a global credit to trade against?
Well, there were and still are a few other hard currencies.

It's true that in term of volume, most of the trade is done using USD or Euro as a reference, but if you look back in history, the Euro basically took the place of the Deutsch Mark, which was at the time the hardest currency, as Germany was also the World's 1st exporter.

Even as it became the 2nd World Economy, the JPY never made as much of the Banks Reserves, same for the GBP, as those were quite mobile currencies.

But if we look at the current economical landscape, which is vastly different, I got the feeling that EU countries out of the Eurozone will be better off, and that the Yuan might become a major currency, as China has taken Japan's place, and if they manage to stop underevaluating it.
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Old 2010-02-26, 18:16   Link #6293
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Well, there were and still are a few other hard currencies.

It's true that in term of volume, most of the trade is done using USD or Euro as a reference, but if you look back in history, the Euro basically took the place of the Deutsch Mark, which was at the time the hardest currency, as Germany was also the World's 1st exporter.

Even as it became the 2nd World Economy, the JPY never made as much of the Banks Reserves, same for the GBP, as those were quite mobile currencies.

But if we look at the current economical landscape, which is vastly different, I got the feeling that EU countries out of the Eurozone will be better off, and that the Yuan might become a major currency, as China has taken Japan's place, and if they manage to stop underevaluating it.
I doubt China would want to undervaluate their currency, because it would spook investors away, and preventing outsiders from bringing in the modern technology they seriously need to forge ahead (through pilfering, of course).

Besides, they would want to ensure a majority of their people are educated before they move in as a dominant power, most of the Chinese living in the rural areas still fall below the expected literacy to compete in the world market.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-02-27, 03:12   Link #6294
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Just heard about an earthquake off the coast of Chile (8.8 magnitude? Sources vary atm). Just wow.
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Old 2010-02-27, 04:08   Link #6295
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Orlandos Seaworld to keep killer killer whale Tilikum even after death of Dawn Brancheau

Accident waiting to happen, anyone?
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Old 2010-02-27, 04:21   Link #6296
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Just heard about an earthquake off the coast of Chile (8.8 magnitude? Sources vary atm). Just wow.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_479294.html

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CHILE EARTHQUAKE: 8.8 Magnitude Quake Hits Chile


SANTIAGO, Chile A massive 8.8-magnitude earthquake capable of tremendous damage struck central Chile early Saturday, shaking the capital for a minute and a half and setting off a tsunami. Buildings collapsed and phone lines and electricity were down, making the extent of the damage difficult to determine.

The quake hit 200 miles (325 kilometers) southwest of the capital, Santiago, at a depth of 22 miles (35 kilometers) at 3:34 a.m. (0634 GMT; 1:34 a.m. EST), the U.S. Geological Survey reported.

The epicenter was just 70 miles (115 kilometers) from Concepcion, Chile's second-largest city, where more than 200,000 people live along the Bio Bio river, and 60 miles from the ski town of Chillan, a gateway to Andean ski resorts that was destroyed in a 1939 earthquake.

An Associated Press Television News cameraman said some buildings collapsed in Santiago and power was out in parts of the city. Phone lines were either down or busy, making confirmation of damage difficult elsewhere, especially further south toward the epicenter. The quake was felt in Argentina as well.

The Pacific Tsunami Warning Center issued a warning for Chile and Peru, and a less-urgent tsunami watch for Ecuador, Colombia, Panama, Costa Rica and Antarctica.

"Sea level readings indicate a tsunami was generated. It may have been destructive along coasts near the earthquake epicenter and could also be a threat to more distant coasts," the center said.

The U.S. west coast tsunami warning center said it did not expect a tsunami along the west of the U.S. or Canada but was continuing to monitor the situation.

The largest earthquake ever recorded struck the same area of Chile on May 22, 1960. The magnitude-9.5 quake killed 1,655 people and left 2 million homeless. The tsunami that it caused killed people in Hawaii, Japan and the Philippines and caused damage to the west coast of the United States.
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Old 2010-02-27, 04:25   Link #6297
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May Chile and Haiti overcome these dilemmas.
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Old 2010-02-27, 05:30   Link #6298
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I doubt China would want to undervaluate their currency, because it would spook investors away, and preventing outsiders from bringing in the modern technology they seriously need to forge ahead (through pilfering, of course).

Besides, they would want to ensure a majority of their people are educated before they move in as a dominant power, most of the Chinese living in the rural areas still fall below the expected literacy to compete in the world market.
They want to because keeping their currency undervaluated means Chinese exports are cheaper on the global market, giving Chinese companies a larger market share than they'd have otherwise. You're right that doing it had problems too, but China still sees a lot of foreign investment as it's the single largest potential market on Earth. As the Chinese market diversifies and becomes less reliant on exporting, the problems of the undervalued yuan will start to outweigh the benefits and they'll stop.
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Old 2010-02-27, 08:47   Link #6299
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Just goes to prove stupidity is not separated by distances or continents ..

Also pretty sure the protesters have no clue what Tea Party Protests here, stands for .
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Old 2010-02-27, 09:33   Link #6300
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Argentinia raising a fuss over the Falklands

Ever since the oil drilling has been getting started, the Argentinians have started to make allot of noise.
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