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Old 2010-02-27, 18:49   Link #5901
Mentar
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
I think calling it a sacrifice and tragedy is a little melodramatic, honestly. Hina's plotline paralleled the choice between Nagi and Athena. The arc was set up between her and Ayumu as "make him fall for me, or confess to him." As it turns out, there was a third choice. Likewise with "do I break the stone, or sacrifice Athena."

In both those cases, it turns out the choice wasn't up to Hinagiku and Hayate to make. It wasn't an either/or between her and Ayumu. Hayate had his own agency and his own feelings, and anyone that truly loved him would have accepted that. Like Hinagiku did.
What you conveniently leave out is that it was _Hina_ who made the decision for Hayate. Hayate didn't decide zip. Hina didn't accept any decision of Hayate, she made the decision for him. If she hadn't pushed him to confront Athena again, and then intervened to save his hide, Athena wouldn't have been saved.

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The narrative explicitly tells Hinagiku through her sister that her feelings for Hayate don't have to be requited in order to have worth. That's a really lovely message, I think.
"The narrative", as you put it, is much more ambiguous than you make it here. The message ends on "But maybe it's too early for the hero to give up yet."

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And it makes Hina into a better character. She's not tragic, she's just going through a tough spot.
Hina doesn't need tutoring in becoming a "better character". She's the designated hero of justice, the one character who consistently puts the interests of others before her own.

And even denying the attribute "tragic" when the direct result of your help and efforts is that your own dream is seemingly crushed is a bit callous in my book. Moreover, except for Isumi nobody really knows what she did.

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And since Hayate wasn't romantically interested in her, there was nothing for her to sacrifice.
Her OWN dream? If she had simply decided not to meddle in Hayate's affairs at all, her chances would have been much better. The story has established many times that there is a mutual attraction between Hayate and Hina, but it never reached the "romantic" stage from Hayate's side.

If a character loses his chance to be with the one they love as the direct result of saving him, that qualified as "tragic" in my book. The narrative of the story was explicit: "Do I want to be loved by you, or do I want to save you?" - and Hina chose "I want to save you". That _is_ sacrifice.

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I can't see anything of MORE interest than tying up an arc, honestly. These aren't just flashbacks, they're an explanation for how things came about. They also involve a mysterious member of Hayate's family, and Nagi's mother. Again, if you can't see how this is going to impact the main characters, I don't really know what to say.
So why deliver it this way? Why not have Nagi around? The natural way of storytelling would be FIRST to have revelations of major impact do their job and IMPACT the characters. Instead we have yet another flashback between Athena and Hayate, which in future may or may not impact the others. I'd rather have them SHAPE the story instead of learning by flashbacks of secondaries how what has happened in the past might or might not impact them.

It only underlines what I said before: The EotW arc has usurped the old story and superseded the old characters sans Hayate. Once they are involved again and are in a position to influence the story again, I'll feel more at ease. But the more the omniscient reader's knowledge becomes desynched with the main characters' knowledge, the more problematic the storytelling gets.

Last edited by Mentar; 2010-02-27 at 19:00.
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Old 2010-02-27, 20:01   Link #5902
musouka
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
What you conveniently leave out is that it was _Hina_ who made the decision for Hayate. Hayate didn't decide zip. Hina didn't accept any decision of Hayate, she made the decision for him. If she hadn't pushed him to confront Athena again, and then intervened to save his hide, Athena wouldn't have been saved.
She didn't make any decision for him. She gave him the advice that any friend would and he chose to follow it. He could have just blown it off, but, hey it was good advice. It's not as though she dragged him over to Athena's house and locked them in a room to talk it out over his protests, so let's not overstate the case here. Hina is a good friend. She gave good advice. I've never denied that.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
"The narrative", as you put it, is much more ambiguous than you make it here. The message ends on "But maybe it's too early for the hero to give up yet."
Do you understand why it was "too early for the hero to give up"? Ayumu said that in the context of "maybe Athena doesn't feel the same way about him." Chapter 260 proved beyond a doubt that that wasn't the case, so Hina did the right thing and removed herself from the scene. If that scene had come after Hina saw their tearful embrace, then you'd definitely have a point, but it was deliberately before.

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Hina doesn't need tutoring in becoming a "better character". She's the designated hero of justice, the one character who consistently puts the interests of others before her own.
She's also really self absorbed. Also, not as altruistic as you make her out to be. For example, in this very arc. She worried herself half to death about how Hayate was horribly depressed over the idea of going out to dinner with her, but never does it occur to her to try to cancel it in order to ease his concern. She's worried, but only in the context of "waaah, maybe he hates me!"

But that's what makes her human. She's not a super woman, she's a teenaged girl.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And even denying the attribute "tragic" when the direct result of your help and efforts is that your own dream is seemingly crushed is a bit callous in my book. Moreover, except for Isumi nobody really knows what she did.
Whoa, whoa, wait. In no way is getting together with Hayate Hina's "dream" that "has been crushed." She's a sweet girl that fell in love with a nice guy that, unfortunately, had an unresolved love for someone else. I've always felt that Hina should branch out from more than the romantic side plots in order to really be great, as I probably like her least when she's mooning over Hayate. This arc gives her a way to grow from this experience and take a different turn in the plot.

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The story has established many times that there is a mutual attraction between Hayate and Hina, but it never reached the "romantic" stage from Hayate's side.
Yes, the story established that Hayate wants Hina to think well of him and that he thinks she's physically attractive. That's it. You could say the same about nearly any girl that has a crush on Hayate. Hayate himself point blank says he never had any romantic designs on Hinagiku. Considering how blunt he is, I see no reason not to take him at his word.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
The narrative of the story was explicit: "Do I want to be loved by you, or do I want to save you?" - and Hina chose "I want to save you". That _is_ sacrifice.
No, she didn't. She chose to "kick that guy's ass" because he insulted her breast size. It was a false dilemma of Hina's own making, because the choice was never to be loved by Hayate in the first place, because he never said he was romantically attracted to weak girls.

Later on, the choice wasn't hers to make, because, again, love was never in the equation. She could have chosen to sit that one out, or chosen to help Hayate save Athena. Even if not for Hayate's sake, I certainly hope she would choose to save someone she, herself, said she had considered a very close friend.

And it's a good thing she did, both times, but the love there wasn't hers to lose because she never would have gained it through her actions in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
So why deliver it this way? Why not have Nagi around?
Because Nagi can't know about Athena at this point in time, narratively speaking. Well, she could right now after the fact, but she couldn't have been allowed to know of Hayate's struggle between her and another girl because that would have been an end game arc.

You want the manga to continue and get back to those fun Hakuou times? Then things can't move too quickly. This is a way of setting up future plot points without challenging the core of the series yet. In this respect, Hina played her part as being the one through Hayate was able to express his feelings for Athena in a dramatic enough fashion.

So, why can't Nagi know? Because her knowing would change her character too much at this point in time, but this is still information that needs to be gotten across to the readers. It's also the way for Athena to gather the remaining questions her arc brought and answer them as best she can before the series can move on in this new direction, or take a quick break back in SoL land.
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Old 2010-02-27, 23:36   Link #5903
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
"Royal Garden" was rejected when it was offered. Hata was sent back to the drawing board, and he came up with Hayate no Gotoku instead, which was subsequently accepted.
Maybe it's similar to what they say about Akamatsu and Mahō Sensei Negima. Akamatsu was like: "Hey, I feel like making a shōnen-esque manga, with magic and battles! =D", but his editors were like: "Nah... we think a love comedy with harem would be better, like Love Hina! =D" and Akamatsu was like: "D=... Okay...". Then, more than 100 chapters later (when the manga had a solid fanbase): "JACK RAKAAAAAAAAAAAN! NEGI PIERCE THE HEAVENS WITH YOUR MAGIC! SHŌNEN BATTLES!", and his editors are: "This is awesome Akamatsu sensei! You can do whatever you want." And right now the Mundus Magicus arc is, perhaps, the longest arc in the story and it's still running - not to mention that, even once the arc is over, even if Akamatsu goes back to the comedy portions, the story of the current arc will be continued and it'll be kept as central to the core plot.

There are other examples of stories that started as love-comedies and end up going on a whole different direction. Has anyone read Hanaukyo Maid Tai? Fuck, the twist there was certainly something. I mean, suddenly there's some mindfuck. There's also a VN called Muv Luv, in which the first VN is just yoru typical dating sim, but the subsequent ones (which are direct sequels) are nothing like it.

I guess it may be a similar situation with HnG. Hata originally wanted to do a particular type of storyline and it got rejected, but now that his manga is popular enough, he can take it (somewhat) in the direction he originally wanted.
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Old 2010-02-27, 23:39   Link #5904
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Maybe it's similar to what they say about Akamatsu and Mahō Sensei Negima. Akamatsu was like: "Hey, I feel like making a shōnen-esque manga, with magic and battles! =D", but his editors were like: "Nah... we think a love comedy with harem would be better, like Love Hina! =D" and Akamatsu was like: "D=... Okay...". Then, more than 100 chapters later (when the manga had a solid fanbase): "JACK RAKAAAAAAAAAAAN! NEGI PIERCE THE HEAVENS WITH YOUR MAGIC! SHŌNEN BATTLES!", and his editors are: "This is awesome Akamatsu sensei! You can do whatever you want."
off topic but that is quite a brilliant move IMO....also im on ch25 atm i recently started Negima...dammit i wanna get to the shounen battles already how much longer ;__;
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Old 2010-02-27, 23:56   Link #5905
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Haha... just wait until the Kyōto arc. That's when you go "OOOOOOOOH! What are you trying to pull here, Akamatsu? *wink**wink*"

Anyway, your reaction reminds me of that of a friend some weeks ago. He saw me reading HnG (the part when they were dealing with Midas), and he was like "Shit! I've got to read this." Then he sat on the other side of the table with his lapt... I mean, his manga volumes, and started reading. 10 minutes later he made this funny face and asked me "Mate, what the fuck is this?" Then I had to explain him what HnG was about. Even so, he ended up reading the whole thing and he's liked it.

But anyway, back on topic, I wonder if Himegami and Hina's parents will be tied to all of this. I still want to know more about Hayate's Bro. Hell, knowing his name would be really nice.

inb4 his name is Hayate and Hata starts using pime taradoxes
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Old 2010-02-28, 03:27   Link #5906
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She didn't make any decision for him. She gave him the advice that any friend would and he chose to follow it. He could have just blown it off, but, hey it was good advice. It's not as though she dragged him over to Athena's house and locked them in a room to talk it out over his protests, so let's not overstate the case here. Hina is a good friend. She gave good advice. I've never denied that.
Pure semantics. You and me know that had Hina not aggressively pushed Hayate ahead - against her own interests - he'd never have gone along in time. You made it sound like her involvement was merely by accepting Hayate's decision. It wasn't.

Quote:
Do you understand why it was "too early for the hero to give up"? Ayumu said that in the context of "maybe Athena doesn't feel the same way about him." Chapter 260 proved beyond a doubt that that wasn't the case, so Hina did the right thing and removed herself from the scene. If that scene had come after Hina saw their tearful embrace, then you'd definitely have a point, but it was deliberately before.
I see your point, and to be honest, I hadn't seen it that way before. You may have a point, it's possible to read it like this. I don't think though that it's Hata's intention to terminally remove Hina from the list of Hayate's romantic interests (and if it was, it would be all the more tragic). We'll have to wait and see, I guess. But if Hata begins to really build up Athena as the clear ending match _by now_ already, I can foresee my interest in the manga dissipating instantly.

So, I'd rather expect the "Don't give up yet, hero!" line to remain in business. Otherwise, there would be no point in the elaborate scheme of hiding Hina's identity from Hayate either.

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She's also really self absorbed.
*lol* What??

Sorry, but this is REALLY absurd. Self-absorption would imply that Hina would be fixated on herself, and interpreting whatever happens around her in terms of how it matters to _her_, and adjusting her actions accordingly. This is exactly NOT what Hina is about, it's the opposite: She consistently helps people not only without consideration of her own interests, but even knowingly _against_ them. If anything, this is one of those things which fuel my not-yet-overcome dislike of _Athena_.

The scenes you're obviously referring to are those where Hina tries to come to terms with her own feelings. To understand what's making her tick. This isn't self-absorption, it's self-reflection and self-awareness. Especially since she is able to admit to herself negative results like "I'm jealous".

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Also, not as altruistic as you make her out to be. For example, in this very arc. She worried herself half to death about how Hayate was horribly depressed over the idea of going out to dinner with her, but never does it occur to her to try to cancel it in order to ease his concern. She's worried, but only in the context of "waaah, maybe he hates me!"
You're forgetting that it was HIM who insisted to invite HER, not vice versa. It would be absurd to cancel a date requested by Hayate on the grounds of "You know, let's not do this date you requested from me, because you actually might dislike having to be with me in the first place". And if you have any experience with romance yourself, you know that when you're about to confess love to someone, baring your soul, is a moment when you're emotionionally sensitive and vulnerable to the extreme. That's no sign of self-absorption either.

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But that's what makes her human. She's not a super woman, she's a teenaged girl.
And exactly your relativistic "she's like everybody else" line is where we have to agree to disagree. Because no, she is NOT.

Hina's altruism - the constant willingness to act to help the interests of others, even to the degree of consciously hurting her own - is what defines her as a character. It goes way and beyond anything else any character in the show save maybe Hayate is doing. And it's not merely limited to him (who was on the receiving end countless times already), but also Nagi, Ayumu, the terrible trio and others. Combined with the fact that she has the brains and brawns to make a difference, this is exactly what makes her the "hero".

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Whoa, whoa, wait. In no way is getting together with Hayate Hina's "dream" that "has been crushed." She's a sweet girl that fell in love with a nice guy that, unfortunately, had an unresolved love for someone else.
Oh please. Can we please stop wasting time debating the obvious? Why do you think was Hina crying when she left the scene at the end of the battle? You even admit that she's in love with Hayate, therefore, by actively helping Hayate save Athena she's going against her own interests, and in the last consequence, arguably sacrificed her chance to be with him. Your constant attempts to belittle this are beginning to feel a bit tiring.

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Yes, the story established that Hayate wants Hina to think well of him and that he thinks she's physically attractive. That's it. You could say the same about nearly any girl that has a crush on Hayate. Hayate himself point blank says he never had any romantic designs on Hinagiku. Considering how blunt he is, I see no reason not to take him at his word.
No, that's not all. He's terribly flustered when he's asked about Hina, and his reaction has consistently been along the lines of "because she's way too good for me, she would never look at me". Or, to point to another scene when both of them are touching hands while reaching to the coffee pot "it was an uncontrollable attraction"

Hina is the only girl he can't touch without eliciting a strong reaction (and vice versa). For example, after saving Hina from falling off the cliff after the beachball tournament, they obviously both remained in a fairly compromising position for quite a while - and they knew that it was compromising, see their reactions after being addressed by Aika.

In a nutshell, both instinctively trust each other in time of action, and they are very aware of each other in calmer times. There is ample groundwork laid by Hata to develop a romance if he feels like doing so (we're obviously not there yet), and there's also a visible trigger (learning that Hina has feelings for him contrary to his conviction) which may very well initiate a gradual change of heart. We'll see.

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No, she didn't. She chose to "kick that guy's ass" because he insulted her breast size. It was a false dilemma of Hina's own making, because the choice was never to be loved by Hayate in the first place, because he never said he was romantically attracted to weak girls.
Doesn't matter at all. If for some reason I thought you're sick and I'd think that giving you all my money would save your life, and consequently do so, then it _would_ be a sacrifice. Even if - unknown to me - the money wouldn't make a difference.

Let's skip this aspect. Your attempts to belittle Hina's efforts/sacrifices by claiming that it's all just a little normal teenager development isn't really convincing, but rather annoying me. And I doubt that what I wrote will change your mind either.

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Because Nagi can't know about Athena at this point in time, narratively speaking. Well, she could right now after the fact, but she couldn't have been allowed to know of Hayate's struggle between her and another girl because that would have been an end game arc.
We'll get to this bridge _now_, whether you want it or not. If Hata seriously tries to organize the story by making Athena Hayate's secret lover while having Hayate return to butler unknowing Nagi, I'm going to feel sick. And drop the manga.

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You want the manga to continue and get back to those fun Hakuou times? Then things can't move too quickly. This is a way of setting up future plot points without challenging the core of the series yet. In this respect, Hina played her part as being the one through Hayate was able to express his feelings for Athena in a dramatic enough fashion.
If you want to know what I _want_, it's simple. I want the show to lose its uber-extreme Athena focus, and rather make her one of the regular characters. I want Nagi to realize that there's one more contender for Hayate's affections and deal with it (that could very well trigger some character development/growth in her). And finally I'd like Athena to lose her "I, I, I" mode and help Nagi deal with the aftermath of destroying the stone.

First, level the playing field and then tell the background story in direct form. I do NOT want any kind of "secret mode", where the old cast is unaware of the "Royal Garden" subplot. It would feel like a terrible breach of trust in my book.

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So, why can't Nagi know? Because her knowing would change her character too much at this point in time, but this is still information that needs to be gotten across to the readers. It's also the way for Athena to gather the remaining questions her arc brought and answer them as best she can before the series can move on in this new direction, or take a quick break back in SoL land.
Essentially you've worked out nicely my gripes with the Royal Garden arc. It isn't properly integrated with the main cast. You say - unless I misunderstand you - that it can't be told to the main cast (especially Nagi) yet, because it would "change too much". I say that it HAS to be integrated now - with all the fallout it would undoubtedly cause - because otherwise it would lead a sidetrack life, which would drain all my respect for Hayate for breach of trust.

If Hata plans to end the show by hiding Hayate/Athena from Nagi, developing the Royal Garden sidestory with only select characters and then miraculously breaking the news to Nagi when she's "ready" for it in the future, then this might please the A-tan shippers. But I'm pretty sure I'm going to strongly resent it. If an Athena ending is to be, then only fought with an open visor.
No other way.
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Old 2010-02-28, 03:59   Link #5907
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Since the raw is out, I went ahead and did a quick, one pass translation for those that are interested. Of note, the chapter goes under the title "The End of the World 11".

Spoiler for 262:
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Old 2010-02-28, 04:27   Link #5908
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Since the raw is out, I went ahead and did a quick, one pass translation for those that are interested. Of note, the chapter goes under the title "The End of the World 11".

Spoiler for 262:
beautiful...Hayate's brother really does look like the ally of justice right now...but im still confused how he could sense Athena's inner voice...he is def not normal
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Old 2010-02-28, 04:33   Link #5909
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Originally Posted by Game8910 View Post
beautiful...Hayate's brother really does look like the ally of justice right now...but im still confused how he could sense Athena's inner voice...he is def not normal
it probably has something to do with the stone...
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Old 2010-02-28, 05:46   Link #5910
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Pure semantics. You and me know that had Hina not aggressively pushed Hayate ahead - against her own interests - he'd never have gone along in time. You made it sound like her involvement was merely by accepting Hayate's decision. It wasn't.
No, I'm not saying what she did wasn't important, I'm just saying she didn't "make the decision for him" like you claimed. She gave him advice. He took her up on it. The decision was still in his hands.

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I don't think though that it's Hata's intention to terminally remove Hina from the list of Hayate's romantic interests (and if it was, it would be all the more tragic).
I don't think Hina should be swept from the field entirely either, but it was Hina's decision to completely back down. We should have a better idea of where things stand at the end of the arc.

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Sorry, but this is REALLY absurd. Self-absorption would imply that Hina would be fixated on herself, and interpreting whatever happens around her in terms of how it matters to _her_, and adjusting her actions accordingly.
Uh, that's exactly what she does. Whenever she worries about something, it is inevitably about how that will affect other people's views of her, in addition to the problems of other people. What you see as altruism, I see as a certain form of (understandable) cowardice. Even her line about "tears underneath the mask" is ultimately self-serving in addition to being painful and sad.

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If anything, this is one of those things which fuel my not-yet-overcome dislike of _Athena_.
Athena isn't altruistic, and I would never claim she was. What she does have is a certain honesty about herself that Hina lacks. Athena makes sense to me. When she thinks that she causes Hayate pain, she distances herself from him and tries to stay out of his life. Isn't that what any good person would do if they honestly thought they would hurt the person they love? When she thinks about how she could take advantage of the situation by stealing the stone and making Hayate lose his job, she's also overcome with disgust at herself.

She has her moments of weakness, but genuinely puts Hayate's happiness over her own. I don't see how that can be denied.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
The scenes you're obviously referring to are those where Hina tries to come to terms with her own feelings. To understand what's making her tick. This isn't self-absorption, it's self-reflection and self-awareness. Especially since she is able to admit to herself negative results like "I'm jealous".
No, those aren't the scenes I'm referring to. I'm referring to not even allowing Hayate to finish answering the question she asked before deciding it's a good opening when anyone could see he's sort of hesitantly mulling over what she said, in the confession chapter. You can't read him to that extent, Hina? I'm referring to the birthday chapter where it never even occurs to her to maybe be worried about Hayate being late--no, he's not there because he's a jerk, because he doesn't like her, ect, ect. I'm referring to worrying more about what Ayumu will think of her "betrayal" as opposed to the actual "betraying" itself. There are a lot more chapters where Hina worries more about how people will see her or what people think of her as opposed to the people themselves.

Again, that's normal. Sometimes I find that part of Hina really tiresome, but it's not an unnatural attribute to have.

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You're forgetting that it was HIM who insisted to invite HER, not vice versa. It would be absurd to cancel a date requested by Hayate on the grounds of "You know, let's not do this date you requested from me, because you actually might dislike having to be with me in the first place".
No, Hayate wanted to thank her, and was given the suggestion of a super-expensive restaurant. Personally, I would feel uncomfortable allowing the person I loved put himself in potentially dire financial straits knowing that he has money problems. If I thought he was depressed over the dinner with me, especially knowing he wanted to thank me in some way, I would suggest a more cost effective alternative and maybe cap it off with a walk on the beach. Of course, I'm much older than Hina is, to be fair.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And if you have any experience with romance yourself, you know that when you're about to confess love to someone, baring your soul, is a moment when you're emotionionally sensitive and vulnerable to the extreme. That's no sign of self-absorption either.
It is if all you can think about, when you see the person you love looking distant and depressed, is how he must be reacting to you. If you are convinced that he is distant and depressed, but still think this is a good time to confess your feelings, then Hayate isn't the only one without a sense of delicacy.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Hina's altruism - the constant willingness to act to help the interests of others, even to the degree of consciously hurting her own - is what defines her as a character.
What are all the times Ayumu has helped Hina with Hayate, chopped liver? I know you like her and all, but she's not a saint, Mentar. It's okay for her to be flawed.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
No, that's not all. He's terribly flustered when he's asked about Hina, and his reaction has consistently been along the lines of "because she's way too good for me, she would never look at me". Or, to point to another scene when both of them are touching hands while reaching to the coffee pot "it was an uncontrollable attraction"
He's terribly flustered because half the time he thinks she doesn't even like him. Again. Point blank. Outright rejection of the idea.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Hina is the only girl he can't touch without eliciting a strong reaction (and vice versa). For example, after saving Hina from falling off the cliff after the beachball tournament, they obviously both remained in a fairly compromising position for quite a while - and they knew that it was compromising, see their reactions after being addressed by Aika.
He had the same exact reaction with Maria when they were trapped in the sauna together, and when they went on that mock date. He's had that reaction in regards to Ayumu. Hina is not special in this regard.

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Doesn't matter at all. If for some reason I thought you're sick and I'd think that giving you all my money would save your life, and consequently do so, then it _would_ be a sacrifice. Even if - unknown to me - the money wouldn't make a difference.
No, you can only sacrifice things you actually have. But I'm just as sick of debating a joke scene as you probably are.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
We'll get to this bridge _now_, whether you want it or not. If Hata seriously tries to organize the story by making Athena Hayate's secret lover while having Hayate return to butler unknowing Nagi, I'm going to feel sick. And drop the manga.
No one said anything about Athena and Hayate dating. There can be a myriad of reasons why they wouldn't want to be "secret lovers" even while having mutual feelings. (For one thing, Hayate still doesn't have enough money to support a woman for the rest of her life. >_>)

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And finally I'd like Athena to lose her "I, I, I" mode and help Nagi deal with the aftermath of destroying the stone.
I'm really going to need you to explain this insistance on Athena as being completely self-centered, because I don't see it.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
If Hata plans to end the show by hiding Hayate/Athena from Nagi, developing the Royal Garden sidestory with only select characters and then miraculously breaking the news to Nagi when she's "ready" for it in the future, then this might please the A-tan shippers.
I don't think anyone has suggested that, least of all me. The information we're getting is involving mysterious figures like Hayate's brother, which will probably shine some light on aspects of the plot. We will probably get at least some sort of temporary resolution to the Athena/Hayate plot, but that's all. I think part of your problem is that you're viewing this entire thing as a love drama. I think the series is actually about family first and foremost.
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Old 2010-02-28, 08:22   Link #5911
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Uh, that's exactly what she does. Whenever she worries about something, it is inevitably about how that will affect other people's views of her, in addition to the problems of other people.
Altruism isn't about worrying about anything, altruism is about _helping_ others. If you feel like giving evidence that considering things like "what will others think" ever precluded Hina from _doing_ something and helping people, go ahead. The single time in the show where she initially implicitly refused a help request was when she bullied Hayate back after the sports meet for trapping her on the bridge. And even there, she went to help him anyways on her own volition.

Sorry, your attempted characterization is simply unfair. Hina consistently tries to do the right thing, and it's NOT always about her, and most definitely even fewer about her own wishes. Calling her of all people "self-centered" is silly.

Quote:
What you see as altruism, I see as a certain form of (understandable) cowardice. Even her line about "tears underneath the mask" is ultimately self-serving in addition to being painful and sad.
Cowardice? The girl has a conscience and is grappling with her emotions, and based on that she's trying to do the right thing. Her self-reflection DID allow her to realize her betrayal of Ayumu and to apologize for it (something which Athena never had the guts for). It wasn't easy for her, but she did it.

Self-serving? She was answering Isumi's question, after she purposely drew her away to leave Hayate and Athena alone. Calling this act self-serving is so obviously absurd that it's staggering. It's not Hina who is self-serving, and who is wallowing in self-pity unless others save her behind. That's Athena's specialty.

Quote:
Athena isn't altruistic, and I would never claim she was. What she does have is a certain honesty about herself that Hina lacks. Athena makes sense to me.
Athena has two priorities: Herself, and Hayate. The latter primarily as means to take away HER loneliness. And she's pursuing these priorities very honestly. Agreed so far.

Quote:
When she thinks that she causes Hayate pain, she distances herself from him and tries to stay out of his life. Isn't that what any good person would do if they honestly thought they would hurt the person they love?
Pre-expulsion as kids, she had no problems causing Hayate pain when she thought it was "better" to do so. She tried to meld Hayate into HER perfect companion. She threw him out when he dared to oppose and deny her. After he had gone, her primary focus was "Uuu, I AM ALONE AGAIN" (reinforced yet another time in c262). After she found him again 10 years later, she didn't come clean, but rather decided to "stay away". When she learned that Hayate was trying to see her, she had Machina beat him bloody. Hum...

Quote:
When she thinks about how she could take advantage of the situation by stealing the stone and making Hayate lose his job, she's also overcome with disgust at herself.
...and then she still goes on to do it anyway. That's the point. But I guess that was all just Midas' doing. Convenient to have an evil side to deal with the blame.

Quote:
She has her moments of weakness, but genuinely puts Hayate's happiness over her own. I don't see how that can be denied.
Pre-expulsion, I don't think I can agree with that. Later, after she found him again, she stayed away - let's be gracious and list that as evidence for your position. And I certainly don't doubt that she does care for Hayate's happiness, I wouldn't want to contest that.

But let's look at Hina and Athena at the catharsis: Hina acts, because her first priority is undoubtedly to save Hayate. She had convinced Hayate first to see Athena, and now she's there to free his back, sending him to save Athena in the fight. At the end of the fight it pains her to see Hayate in Athena's arms, and she's crying over it. Yet, she does what she believes the right thing to do, and is drawing Isumi away to leave the two of them time for each other.

Now Athena: She deeply regrets that she "always causes Hayate pain". So, to put an end to this, she wants to unsummon herself and King Midas to save Hayate and all the others (but then, she doesn't). In the middle of the battle all she can think about is about HER and Hayate, how she wants to touch him, but is afraid of hurting him again. But NEVERTHELESS... she wants to touch him. She wants to hear him call her name. "HAYATEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!"

Athena is talking the talk, but ultimately sticks with what SHE really wants. Hina is walking the walk and ultimately goes with what she believes to be the right thing to do, even if it's the opposite of what she wants. Guess that's what's making Hina "cowardly" and "self-centered" (your words)

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I'm really going to need you to explain this insistance on Athena as being completely self-centered, because I don't see it.
Then you can't be looking very hard. See above. Also, didn't you just translate chapter 262 by yourself? (thanks for that, btw) It's hilarious if you list all lines of Athena (spoilered for brevity, the first 13 pages). As an exercise, mark those lines with "I", "my", or are immediately describing HER situation.

Spoiler:


Keep in mind, self-centered was the word _you_ picked out first. It describes EXACTLY what I dislike about Athena. She has the strong tendency to relate whatever happens to HER. I don't doubt that she's hurting over causing Hayate pain, but you don't read lines like "I'm sorry that I threw you out of your home", she says "I'm alone again... forever". She doesn't say "You must be hurting out alone", she says "It's all my fault, I broke it".

If you still can't see it, I doubt you ever will.
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Old 2010-02-28, 11:50   Link #5912
Jiraya2
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Since the raw is out, I went ahead and did a quick, one pass translation for those that are interested. Of note, the chapter goes under the title "The End of the World 11".

Spoiler for 262:
Thanks a lot for the translation!
Well, it looks like Hayate and Hayate's Bro are two different characters.

By the way, I do not consider A-Tan as a self-centered girl.
Or if she is, IMO, Hinagiku and Nagi are just at the same level. Both considered her situation first, the way people will look at them (especially Hina). Both are very pround of herself and are such bad loosers.
They are just little girls/teens moreover, they are in love, so, nothing very surprising for them to be like that
In this chapter, A-Tan is just a lonely little girl in despair and crying.
That is almost cruel to look at her as an egoistic character.
And whatever, with such Moe, I forgive her everything
On the other hand, there is a really altruist character: Isumi.
And I was thninking about something: there are some people who should know a lot about the past. Isumi's mother and great-great mother, plus Wataru's mother.

I like very much this new arc and the author made a good work to introduce it with a lot of reference during the previous chapter. I guess he changed his first mind on details, but the main facts make sense with the previous events.
We still do not know how much about what kind of roles played Hayate's Bro, Nagi's mother, Himagami, Maria and maybe Hinagiku's father and mother played in the past.

Something seems to me very disturbing. The way for two people to leave the Royal Garden looks difficult, and maybe some kind of sacrifice is needed ...
That might explain why A-Tan refused to go with Hayate. And that might be also why HAyate's Bro is missing for ten years.
We still have no idea how A-Tan has been locked into the Royal Garden.
Was she the Gardian of the Power of Royalty? It seems absurd, because she is supposed to steal it together with Mikado and Himegami (and Midas).
Was she punished for something? Probably, but by who?
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Old 2010-02-28, 13:09   Link #5913
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Or if she is, IMO, Hinagiku and Nagi are just at the same level. Both considered her situation first, the way people will look at them (especially Hina). Both are very pround of herself and are such bad loosers.
And that's how silly rumors start.

It's just not true at all. Neither Hinagiku nor Nagi lost a second to think "how are we looking when we do this?" - just reread the friggen scenes.

Nagi's decision to break the stone was in chapters 252 and 253. It was quite an impulsive act, but also a very sweet one. "If this pebble is troubling you, then I don't want it." - "No! You're protected by your money, milady!" - "From now on, you can protect me!" (in its stead)

Hina in c258 hears that Tennous-san is about to disappear from this world, that Hayate and Isumi have gone there.

Hina: "Huh? Tennous-san will disappear?"
Sakuya: "But from the looks of it, they might have failed. "
Ginka: "But we can't go help them! There's too many of them!"
Hina: (thinks) Hayate-kun... Tennous-san!!!
Hina: "Then I'll go! I'll save Tennous-san and the others! So tell me exactly where they are!"

Yea, lots of "considered their situation first" going on here. Bah.
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Old 2010-02-28, 13:29   Link #5914
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I don't think that's what he meant by "look at their situation first," but that both of them have their own wishes as well. So, even so, they tend to measure what they want vs what others want. Personally, I'd say Hina is a very nice person but not that altruistic. In many cases, rather than altruism, I'd call it weakness in character, because even if she puts other people before herself, she still remains with doubts and regrets, and sometimes, the reason why she puts others' desires above her own, is because she simply hasn't the inner strength to express her own feelings, and/or she's afraid of hurting others.

It's similar with Nagi. What she did in this arc was definitely great. Seriously, that was one big sacrifice, but that begs the question, had she known who the person Hayate going to save was, what that person means to Hayate, and that Hayate doesn't see her the way she believes he does, would she have done it?

Both girls are great, both of them love Hayate and both of them can do many things for him, but I wouldn't call them altruists myself.
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Old 2010-02-28, 13:42   Link #5915
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I don't think that's what he meant by "look at their situation first," but that both of them have their own wishes as well. So, even so, they tend to measure what they want vs what others want.
So what is the greater deed? Helping others out while feeling/knowing that doing so hurts your interests, or helping out others while not caring about that at all?

Your idea of altruism is of a cheap kind: It seems to imply that it's only altruism if prioritizing the welfare of others doesn't really matter to you personally. I say it's a much better deed if you do realize that it hurts you but STILL do it.

(Maybe it's my background of christian ethic at work here. But he who gives a small copper coin when he actually misses it does a greater good than he who gives a talent but doesn't really care about it)

I don't know, guys, but it seems that you and me have some fundamental differences about selfishness. It almost seems that you rate it higher to be strongly and honestly selfish rather than being "weakly" non-selfish. Gives me a really queasy stomach, because this is something I happen to stumble across quite a bit in the US, and which I consider highly deplorable.
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Old 2010-02-28, 14:23   Link #5916
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Altruism isn't about worrying about anything, altruism is about _helping_ others. If you feel like giving evidence that considering things like "what will others think" ever precluded Hina from _doing_ something and helping people, go ahead.
I didn't say she didn't help people, I just put forth that her motivations for doing so weren't always as sweet and pure as you make them out to be.

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Sorry, your attempted characterization is simply unfair. Hina consistently tries to do the right thing, and it's NOT always about her, and most definitely even fewer about her own wishes. Calling her of all people "self-centered" is silly.
It's silly to call a girl very focused on herself and her image self-absorbed? I never called Hina self-centered. That would imply a certain brand of selfishness that I think Hina lacks. But self-absorbed? Almost certainly. Her actions might be about other people many times, but her thoughts? Not very often.

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Cowardice? The girl has a conscience and is grappling with her emotions, and based on that she's trying to do the right thing. Her self-reflection DID allow her to realize her betrayal of Ayumu and to apologize for it (something which Athena never had the guts for). It wasn't easy for her, but she did it.
"Hayate, I'm sorry for always hurting you." Did you forget about that apology?

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Self-serving? She was answering Isumi's question, after she purposely drew her away to leave Hayate and Athena alone. Calling this act self-serving is so obviously absurd that it's staggering. It's not Hina who is self-serving, and who is wallowing in self-pity unless others save her behind. That's Athena's specialty.
Oh yes, heroes are so noble. They can't show anyone the tears behind their masks. Just, you know, tell people about them in melodramatic statements, thus negating the idea of "crying where people can't see you" entirely. You say I shouldn't blame Hina for her thoughts, but then go on to blame Athena for hers?

By your definition of "sacrifice" Athena has actually sacrificed much more than Hina did. After all, she was willing to sacrifice her life to take down Midas, right?

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Athena has two priorities: Herself, and Hayate. The latter primarily as means to take away HER loneliness. And she's pursuing these priorities very honestly. Agreed so far.
No, Athena has shown very clearly that while not being with Hayate is painful for her, she puts his own happiness far above her own. She does not take the stone at the most opportune moment--when Hayate is asleep--and tries to warn him away when Midas takes control. She pretends she doesn't know him in order to keep him uninvolved--because she's afraid she'll end up hurting him. She magically broke the swords in their duels as children in order to avoid killing him when she lost control.

If it was just a matter of using Hayate to stave off loneliness, then her actions would have been very different. It's hard to use Hayate against loneliness if you're constantly pushing him away, wouldn't you think?

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Pre-expulsion as kids, she had no problems causing Hayate pain when she thought it was "better" to do so.
You mean like Hina instantly going on the attack because Hayate was a few hours late for something? Hina didn't even have the excuse for doing it to his betterment.

Aside from that, it was training. Athena was actually quite patient. He dropped a bucket of water on her head with no retribution on her part in any form, and she was also easy with her praise. That's especially important, because she was building Hayate's self esteem along with his body.

It's sort of like how you only remember the part of the flashback where Athena talks about money, and never mention the part where she says a man must be both strong and gentle too.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
She tried to meld Hayate into HER perfect companion.
See, I don't remember EotW ever mentioning that being her motivation. Athena herself says her motive for teaching him swordfighting and such was teaching him "to believe in himself." It might be that she preferred a strong, gentle Hayate as opposed to a weak, cowardly Hayate, but Hayate himself agreed to take the role of her butler, so I would assume that also includes on the job training?

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She threw him out when he dared to oppose and deny her.
No, she told him that he should just leave. She didn't expell him, but she did say something she shouldn't have. Also, she wasn't upset that he opposed her, she was upset that he didn't understand her.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
After he had gone, her primary focus was "Uuu, I AM ALONE AGAIN" (reinforced yet another time in c262).
So, let me get this straight. Hina crying over not getting a boy she likes is the highest of tragedies. A six year old girl bursting into tears over staring down the very real propostion of being alone for eternity, of never hearing another human being call her name again, is selfish?

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After she found him again 10 years later, she didn't come clean, but rather decided to "stay away".
Come clean about what? Her first priority was making sure Hayate didn't become involved, not to protect herself, but to protect him.

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...and then she still goes on to do it anyway. That's the point. But I guess that was all just Midas' doing. Convenient to have an evil side to deal with the blame.
If she wanted to take the stone, she could have done it while he was sleeping, you know. As opposed to leaving the room the second Midas began to take over. The narrative is extremely clear on the fact that Athena is unwilling to take the stone even to her potential advantage. Furthermore, the narrative is clear that Athena has selfish reasons to take it away from Hayate, which she acknowledges and rejects. Not all of Athena's failings are blamed on Midas, like you're implying.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Now Athena: She deeply regrets that she "always causes Hayate pain". So, to put an end to this, she wants to unsummon herself and King Midas to save Hayate and all the others (but then, she doesn't).
I'm pretty sure she was in the middle of doing that when Hayate rushed in and saved her, since she said that's what she would be doing.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
In the middle of the battle all she can think about is about HER and Hayate, how she wants to touch him, but is afraid of hurting him again. But NEVERTHELESS... she wants to touch him. She wants to hear him call her name. "HAYATEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!"
You forgot, "as long as you're happy, that's fine." So selfish, that putting other people's happiness before your own, explicitly.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Athena is talking the talk, but ultimately sticks with what SHE really wants. Hina is walking the walk and ultimately goes with what she believes to be the right thing to do, even if it's the opposite of what she wants. Guess that's what's making Hina "cowardly" and "self-centered" (your words)
I'm sorry, I don't see the difference. Athena holds strong to pushing Hayate away from her because she believes he's happier without her, until the very end when she thinks she's about to die. She didn't force Hayate to save her, even though deep down, she wanted to be saved.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Then you can't be looking very hard. See above. Also, didn't you just translate chapter 262 by yourself? (thanks for that, btw) It's hilarious if you list all lines of Athena (spoilered for brevity, the first 13 pages). As an exercise, mark those lines with "I", "my", or are immediately describing HER situation.
Did you miss that at least half of those lines are an apology and taking the blame for what just happened? Yes, she's sad about being alone for the rest of eternity, but she's also apologizing to Hayate, and taking responsibility for the circumstances that led to her current misery.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Keep in mind, self-centered was the word _you_ picked out first.
Nope, it was self-absorbed.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I don't doubt that she's hurting over causing Hayate pain, but you don't read lines like "I'm sorry that I threw you out of your home", she says "I'm alone again... forever". She doesn't say "You must be hurting out alone", she says "It's all my fault, I broke it".
First of all, Hayate doesn't see the Royal Garden as his "home", since he wanted to take her out of it. She's regretting her words and actions, not only because of the impact they will have on her, but Hayate too. "I'm so sorry...Hayate." She also admits that she wanted to take the course of action he suggested, meaning she acknowledges that he was the one that was right in this situation.

Athena has talked about how one of her goals was to save him from his parents, how she had searched for him in order to do that, meaning she was aware that he was in for pain when he left her. She even talked about how the thought of her own actions leading her to be unable to save Hayate makes her heart ache. So I don't think it's fair to suggest that she didn't spare a thought for Hayate's feelings about all this too.
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Old 2010-02-28, 15:37   Link #5917
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Only the vital key points, or this is going to become completely unreadable.

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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
By your definition of "sacrifice" Athena has actually sacrificed much more than Hina did. After all, she was willing to sacrifice her life to take down Midas, right?
You seem to have difficulties comprehending the difference between SAYING something and DOING something. If she had actually given her life to take down Midas, it would have been a much bigger sacrifice, naturally. However, she did NOT. She didn't even do anything that could give an indication that she started doing it. She just TALKED. Does she deserve praise for TALK?

Sorry, where I come from, people who DO something deserve more praise than people who TALK about something, and then don't do it. Good deeds >> Good intentions.

This is a recurring theme with her anyway. See the next morphing example: Chapter 260, page 9ff:

"It was fine... if you never called out my name again."
"If someone had given you the happiness I couldn't give you."
"I was fine... if you never called out my name again."
"If you were happy... I was fine..."
"I was..."
"I was..."
"I want to see you..."
"I want to see you... Hayate"
"Call out my name once more..."
"Call out my name..."
"HAYATEEEE!!!!"

In your world, you gave Athena high praise for her big restraint. In my world, I'm much less enthusiastic, because in the end, she only TALKED about it, and eventually changed her mind to the solution which benefited herself. Isn't that exactly the "refreshing honesty" which you talked about earlier, and which several people seemed to approve of?

This is the huge qualitative difference I see between Hina and Athena, and why I judge both of them very differently. Hina's thoughts and actions towards Hayate (and others) are fundamentally consistent. She makes up her mind what is the "right" thing to do, and does it, usually without any kind of reward. Athena also has kind thoughts and intentions, but when things finally do happen, they often enough achieve the opposite of what she originally intended. When it's something selfless, she talks about it, and almost certainly genuinely feels like it, but ultimately doesn't follow through. Her longing for Hayate makes her change her mind in the end. Which at the moment seems to reward her with Hayate's affection.

On close reflection, I believe that in the end, this might be the real root of my beef with Athena. I want Hina - and after her sacrifice, Nagi - to be adequately rewarded for their deeds. They deserve better than this. In comparison, Athena has not yet matched up. Instead, I feel that Hata is trying hard to make me change my mind by piling buckets of "aww come on and love poor her, she is soooooo pitiful" over her, but merely being a (mostly self-inflicted) damsel in distress is not something I find admirable per se.

I assume that Athena will have ample opportunity to walk the walk in the future, now that she's free of coercion. I'll reserve final judgment on her until I've seen her reaction towards her saviors, and how she will fit in. But so far, I definitely don't see her on the level of Hina, Nagi, or Ayumu and the likes.
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Old 2010-02-28, 15:45   Link #5918
Jiraya2
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I do not think such a topic deserve a quarrel.
Nagi, Hinagiku and A-Tan are all very nice and cute girls, but all of them are far from beeing plain, shy girls (even if they, especially Nagi and Hina, got their shy sides).
Nevertheless, they are self-absorbed.
Nagi does not hesitate to put Hayate (and everybody except Maria) in trouble if it might be funny. Of course, she does not want to put anybody in dangerous situation, but she is still a little girl, without any knowing about the real world, so ... She is quite egoistic too, just because she is a spoiled and very rich heir.
Hinagiku is very pround of herself and value higly people opinion. Moreover, she does not like to lose. That is why she is very reluctant to confess to Hayate. Of course, she suffered as a child a trauma (her parents abandoned her, not very different from Nagi and A-Tan). On the other side, she will always try to help Hayate, whatever is her own interest.
A-Tan is on a different situation because she has got nobody to rely on (except a stupid snake). That is why, Hayate is everything for her and in the current chapter, we can see she was wishing for death because he left. Nevertheless, she always puts Hayate's happiness above her own happiness. Nagi has Maria and some very good friends (Isumi, Sakuya, ...). Hinagiku is in the same situation and has also some relatives.
A-Tan is so lonely ... That is the reason I assume she is the one who loves Hayate the most. I am quite afraid it is stronger than love, and probably a bit insane.
In fact, A-Tan and Hayate are very close characters because both of them are cursed.
Even if we still do not understand fully what kind of curses it is.

I am not going to give a definition of atruism because it is a difficult topic, but I guess the most atruist characters are Hayate's Bro, Isumi and Hayate himself.
The three girls are maidens in love, that means they CANNOT be 100% atruist as soon as her beloved guy is involved.
And whatever, we should remember one thing: Hayate loves A-tan, and not the other girls.
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Old 2010-02-28, 16:07   Link #5919
musouka
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You seem to have difficulties comprehending the difference between SAYING something and DOING something. If she had actually given her life to take down Midas, it would have been a much bigger sacrifice, naturally. However, she did NOT. She didn't even do anything that could give an indication that she started doing it. She just TALKED. Does she deserve praise for TALK?
Please prove that what she said was "just talk." She said what she was going to do, then, to all appearances, began to do it. Did you expect her to keel over dead at that moment?

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In your world, you gave Athena high praise for her big restraint. In my world, I'm much less enthusiastic, because in the end, she only TALKED about it, and eventually changed her mind to the solution which benefited herself. Isn't that exactly the "refreshing honesty" which you talked about earlier, and which several people seemed to approve of?
So, basically, you could have only liked Athena if Hayate had failed to save her. Her inward desire to have Hayate call out her name one last time, to return her feelings, and then Hayate saving her is something she should be blamed for? You're blaming the character for the story's actions. It's not Athena's fault that the story rewarded her inner desires, because she didn't do anything to force them to be rewarded.

There was no "solution" she changed to. There was no indication she stopped the process of giving her life. There was only regret and pain over not being able to reach Hayate in the way that, deep down, she had always wanted. If Hina was in the same situation, and crying over her regrets, wishing she had taken the chances she had been given to reach Hayate the way she had always wanted...you don't think you would be affected? You'd sit there and call that "changing her mind" and change your perception on Hina's altruistic tendencies? Somehow I strongly doubt that.

Hina herself said, "if you're not a little bit selfish, you'll never be happy."
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いつの日も愛してた
それだけは 今もまだ
ずっと変りはしない
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Old 2010-02-28, 16:24   Link #5920
Dr. Casey
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiraya2 View Post
I do not think such a topic deserve a quarrel.
Nah, this debate's a great read. I'm all for having it keep up.
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