Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[GlassesLady]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Nah, this debate's a great read. I'm all for having it keep up.

Well, you guys can have your fun, but personally I'm going to have to say "tl;dr" and skip it. Especially since a certain side's arguments still look half-delusional to me, but I'll keep that to myself.

[Jiraya2]

Well, I too likes this topic but I feel people are going too serious about it.
Except Gilbert and Mikado, all the characters are nice and likeable.
And I really appreciate Hinagiku and the other girls, but A-tan is currently my favorite.
Nevertheless, HnG is a comedy even if with this new arc, it turns to be more tragical.

[strmclr]

I read somewhere that Hata had the appearance of Athena planned since the beginning of the manga.
http://www.onemanga.com/Hayate_the_C...utler/1/05-06/
The link above is from the first chapter of the manga. Do you notice Athena's castle at the background?

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Jiraya2

Well, I too likes this topic but I feel people are going too serious about it.
Except Gilbert and Mikado, all the characters are nice and likeable.
And I really appreciate Hinagiku and the other girls, but A-tan is currently my favorite.
Nevertheless, HnG is a comedy even if with this new arc, it turns to be more tragical.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Hinagiku. She's not my favorite--my order is roughly Hayate = Athena, then Nagi, Maria, Isumi, with Hina and Ayumu somewhere after--but I don't think she's a bad character. I just find her frustrating when it comes to the romantic aspects of the series. Sometimes it feels to me that being around Hayate only causes her discomfort and inner turmoil, whereas with Athena not being around Hayate is what causes her pain. So I lose patience for the first scenario really quickly, but want the second scenario to be rewarded.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Nah, this debate's a great read. I'm all for having it keep up.

Indeed, the last pages were really great to read. I could even say it is as much fun a the manga ^_^

Originally Posted by strmclr

I read somewhere that Hata had the appearance of Athena planned since the beginning of the manga.
{link}
The link above is from the first chapter of the manga. Do you notice Athena's castle at the background?

In danger of repeating myself:

Originally Posted by Arabesque

It could just be me, but all I see is the silhouette of the Royal Palace. That doesn't mean he planned to insert them into the story later on. He could've wanted to throw it in as trivia.

So yeah, that doesn't prove that Athena joining the cast was planned from the beginning, it is just the Royal Palace put there as way for Hata to insert some interesting trivia in the manga.

EDIT:

Sometimes it feels to me that being around Hayate only causes her discomfort and inner turmoil

I see it as her getting worried that she might end up doing something that might make him hate her (lack of confidence), as we do see her being happy when ever things between her and Hayate go well. Also, you can also apply the same thinking to how Athena thinks at times (i.e. she at times worries that being around Hayate causes him misfortune).

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by musouka

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Hinagiku. She's not my favorite--my order is roughly Hayate = Athena, then Nagi, Maria, Isumi, with Hina and Ayumu somewhere after--but I don't think she's a bad character. I just find her frustrating when it comes to the romantic aspects of the series. Sometimes it feels to me that being around Hayate only causes her discomfort and inner turmoil, whereas with Athena not being around Hayate is what causes her pain. So I lose patience for the first scenario really quickly, but want the second scenario to be rewarded.

it is nice to see a anime/manga character go atraight for what they want instead of being wishy-washy about it.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by musouka

Please prove that what she said was "just talk." She said what she was going to do, then, to all appearances, began to do it. Did you expect her to keel over dead at that moment?

No, there was no such appearance. Chapter 258, page 11, she says "I'm sorry that all I ever do is hurt you", and after that we see nothing from Athena at all. After that, we only see Athena taken in by Midas and reminiscing about her time with Hayate. If you want to convince yourself that this reminiscing is some spell to unsummon Midas, be my guest. There was no sign of any kind of effectiveness until she called for Hayate to help. In my book, she simply gave up until her longing for Hayate caused her to regain her willingness to live and scream for him.

So, basically, you could have only liked Athena if Hayate had failed to save her. Her inward desire to have Hayate call out her name one last time, to return her feelings, and then Hayate saving her is something she should be blamed for?

No, I didn't say that. But she shouldn't be glorified for mere announcements either. And I do not see this on the same level as Hina, who ACTED. See the difference I'm pointing out? I'm not asking you to share my opinion, just to recognize the difference I'm making.

You're blaming the character for the story's actions. It's not Athena's fault that the story rewarded her inner desires, because she didn't do anything to force them to be rewarded.

I accept half of this criticism as valid. It's unfair from me to hold the favorable outcome against Athena, point taken. It's born from a subjective feeling of injustice. What I still insist on is that I do see Hina's actions as much more praiseworthy than Athena's intentions (we don't need to agree here, but that's my point of view), and I hope you'll be able to recognize why. As I said, Athena will definitely have more opportunities to act in the future. Let's give her more time till then.

There was no "solution" she changed to. There was no indication she stopped the process of giving her life.

Aww please.

I quoted the relevant chapter, and it's visible for everybody how her thoughts wandered, stopped, and reversed track (she contradicts what she said seconds before). Look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you REALLY believe that this reversal was part of her "giving her life" spell (an interpretation I reject, and even stipulating that this was truly what Athena did, it seemed to have had no effect in the first place). I have difficulties buying that and smell wishful thinking instead.

If Hina was in the same situation, and crying over her regrets, wishing she had taken the chances she had been given to reach Hayate the way she had always wanted...you don't think you would be affected?

I can't picture Hina announcing sacrificing her life, so I need to pass here.

You'd sit there and call that "changing her mind" and change your perception on Hina's altruistic tendencies? Somehow I strongly doubt that.

I don't remember Hina reneging on an announcement what she's going to do. The same does not hold true for Athena. Let's just agree that there are fundamental differences between these two.

Hina herself said, "if you're not a little bit selfish, you'll never be happy."

Touche, I guess. It still leaves me with a sandy taste in my mouth.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

it is nice to see a anime/manga character go atraight for what they want instead of being wishy-washy about it.

You do realize that Athena didn't "go straight for what she wanted", but rather the opposite? She tried to push Hayate away as hard as possible until the very end when she flopped back and the god of storyline rewarded her with Hayate as result of others colluding in HER favor?

Aaah, make-believe is such a powerful thing ^_^;

Well, I'll just interpret this as commenting Athena's actions AFTERWARDS...

[zodanhko]

Athena already proved to "walk the walk" when she decided to stay away from Hayate thinking about his happiness after searching for him for 10 years, and this "walk" was much harder than anything Hina could ever do. Personally, I don't think Hina has what it takes to do what Athena has done unless she learned more from Ayumu in addition to stop running away from her problems.

Originally Posted by Mentar

You do realize that Athena didn't "go straight for what she wanted", but rather the opposite? She tried to push Hayate away as hard as possible until the very end when she flopped back and the god of storyline rewarded her with Hayate as result of others colluding in HER favor?
.

Give hints to a dense guy until he gets it without backing off was pretty much being straightforward. Hey, the guy was not forced to do it, but he was willing to do it on his own term. Yes, the atmosphere of the EotW arc, I loved it.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Athena already proved to "walk the walk" when she decided to stay away from Hayate thinking about his happiness after searching for him for 10 years, and this "walk" was much harder than anything Hina could ever do. Personally, I don't think Hina has what it takes to do what Athena has done unless she learned more from Ayumu in addition to stop running away from her problems.

Didn't Hina do that 2 chapters ago? When she decided to fly to where he was to help him? When she got past her fear of hight to break the Fake Jewel? When she walked out of the palace so he can get his time with Athena? I mean Hina might not be my favorite, but she did do a lot that manages to make me respect her. All of these things can't be just hand waved as nothing much because Athena suffered more and supposedly ''walked harder'' whatever that means.

And ''running away''? From what exactly?

[Jiraya2]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Didn't Hina do that 2 chapters ago?

Situation was very different.
A-tan choose to stay away from Hayate while she was waiting to be reunite with him for 10 years.
Hina choose to advice Hayate to go for A-tan (I highly respect her for that sacrifice) but she will still be around at school, and whoever knows, she might have some other opportunity?

Whatever, Hinagiku is my second favorite character. Third are Isumi and Nagi.

By the way, I was wondering what is the true goal of HnG. I assume it is not only a romance but a real scenario.
What about the power of Royalty?
I do not think Hayate, Nagi or even A-Tan are still interesting in that.
Nevertheless, IMO, the only reason A-Tan could have been after it is because it can ressurect dead people (her parents).
I wonder why Nagi's mother died while having the power of Royalty. Or she could have seal it? or destruct it? Maybe she died because of that?
I do no remember who said the final boss is Mikado Sanzenin, but I agree with him.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Didn't Hina do that 2 chapters ago? When she decided to fly to where he was to help him? When she got past her fear of hight to break the Fake Jewel? When she walked out of the palace so he can get his time with Athena? I mean Hina might not be my favorite, but she did do a lot that manages to make me respect her.

And ''running away''? From what exactly?

She was forced to fly by the sword to where Hayate was. And what I meant was she can't emotionally do what Athena did-search for him for 10 years, then stay away from him for his sake-regardless how much she detests loneliness.
Considering the amount of time she had for a confession and still failed it every single time.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Jiraya2

Situation was very different.
A-tan choose to stay away from Hayate while she was waiting to be reunite with him for 10 years.
Hina choose to advice Hayate to go for A-tan (I highly respect her for that sacrifice) but she will still be around at school, and whoever knows, she might have some other opportunity?
.

Both Athena and Hina made decisions that made them suffer emotionally in order to keep the man they love happy. So why should Athena sacrifice weigh more than Hina's?

She was forced to fly by the sword to where Hayate was

Because she expressed the wish to save him and Athena

And what I meant was she can't emotionally do what Athena did-search for him for 10 years, then stay away from him for his sake-regardless how much she detests loneliness.

Athena and Hina are different characters, who do things differently but with the same intent. So again, how does Athena supposedly makes more harder decisions than her?

[zodanhko]

It somewhat amused me when considering Hina made a sacrifice when trying to save a person she called a friend.

I hardly considered saving Athena a sacrifice since Hina realized her chance of getting through Hayate is low. And Hina hasn't really lost anything before/after saving Athena since Hayate has no feelings for her in the first place. It did reduce her chance of being with him, but that's what Ayumu has done all the time for Hina. They are friends silly.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Because she expressed the wish to save him and Athena

The point is she didn't know she was going to fly...

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Athena and Hina are different characters, who do things differently but with the same intent. So again, how does Athena supposedly makes more harder decisions than her?

They are different characters with different level of affections toward Hayate due different experienced they had and, of course, their level of maturity in relationship. And in this regard, Hina couldn't possibly be at Athena's level, and I can't see how she can make the decision Athena did.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Mentar

No, there was no such appearance. Chapter 258, page 11, she says "I'm sorry that all I ever do is hurt you", and after that we see nothing from Athena at all. After that, we only see Athena taken in by Midas and reminiscing about her time with Hayate. If you want to convince yourself that this reminiscing is some spell to unsummon Midas, be my guest. There was no sign of any kind of effectiveness until she called for Hayate to help. In my book, she simply gave up until her longing for Hayate caused her to regain her willingness to live and scream for him.

I went back and checked the chapter after this, just to make sure I wasn't in error, and you can see what while she's inside Midas, there is a glow surrounding her. Also, her thoughts seem pretty indicative of someone who has reached the end of their life, because they're full of "if only" and "if I hadn't" and other regrets, before that last break down of "I want to see you, Hayate."

To put it another way, this arc has been about Athena trying very hard to be strong on her own, to tell herself that she can be fine as long as Hayate is happy. I believe her when she says that she can be fine with Hayate being happy, but then we see that simple wish--for herself to find happiness with Hayate. To you, that can be seen as selfishness, but to me, I see it as honesty.

The bravery she showed this arc was a different kind of bravery. It was the bravery to ask for help. When you're trapped in a dark loneliness, perhaps you start trying to rationalize it to yourself. Perhaps you start to think that loneliness is its own form of strength, so when happiness comes and reaches towards you, you draw back.

Athena had a lot of options this arc. She could have told Hayate what was happening and asked for the help of him and his friends, for one. Instead, she tried to make the decision to get involved for him by brutally shoving him away. That's one of her flaws. It's not a good thing. Her choices were bad. I admit all of those things about Athena.

Her calling out to him wasn't a simple "I love you", it was an answer to his "I'll save you!" She was calling him, telling him "please save me!" It was her making a choice to believe and trust in someone beyond herself. It was her making a choice to say "this isn't what I want, I'm in over my head, please help me because I can't help myself." Those are the words she needed to say to Hayate ten years ago, that got lost in her pride and pain.

I think maybe you got a little lost in the image Athena wants to project to the world. Someone calm and in control at all times. When I look at her, I see that six year old, trying to find the words she's never had to voice, trying to tell Hayate how she feels when it's already too late and she's driven him away. And then the tears come, then what she needed to say comes out...when it's already too late. In a lot of respects, she's still that lonely little girl who is mature beyond her years in so many ways that it's easy to overlook how clumsy and afraid she can be on the inside.

Even Hina needs the support of her friends and loved ones to be strong. What would she have done without Ayumu by her side, to make her feel better about this heartbreak? What would she have done without Hayate's kindness and warmth, helping her open up and be more honest with herself? Isn't Athena more to be pitied for having none of those advantages, than to be hated because she doesn't know how to use them because she only had them for the briefest of times?

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Mentar

So what is the greater deed? Helping others out while feeling/knowing that doing so hurts your interests, or helping out others while not caring about that at all?

Your idea of altruism is of a cheap kind: It seems to imply that it's only altruism if prioritizing the welfare of others doesn't really matter to you personally. I say it's a much better deed if you do realize that it hurts you but STILL do it.

I think you're missing my point. I didn't mean she shouldn't care. Heck, the point of sacrifice is to give up something you cherish. However, in Hina's situation, rather than altruism, it seems to me that many of her actions are not based mainly on wanting to make others happy above herself, but she seems to be unable to put herself first, because she's afraid of hurting others. Take the situation back then with Ayumu, for example. Hina indeed put Ayumu's happiness over her own, but she ended up regretting that decision. At first she did nothing, because she thought Hayate and Ayumu had become a couple, but once she realised they hadn't, she started having doubts about what she had just done (i.e. letting Ayumu "keep" Hayate), and in the end, she ended up telling Ayumu she loves Hayate as well. I've also got to mention that, other than not wanting to hurt others, Hina's inner complexes have also played a large role in some of her actions concerning Hayate.

This is basically why I'm saying that, in my opinion, Hina is not an altruist. Hina wants to see other people being happy, but at the same time, she doesn't want to let go of her own happiness.

Personally, I think I wouldn't like Hina as much as I do, if she was an actual altruist.

[_blahhead_]

Ahh, what an entertaining debate. Though I am tilted towards one side currently, I'll see how this continues to folds out. A great way to waste 30 minutes.

[Wolfnagi]

Okay...........
So am I missing anything other than A-tan have finally being free and Midas now gone?
And Rah also have migrated to other place......

[musouka]

Originally Posted by _blahhead_

Ahh, what an entertaining debate. Though I am tilted towards one side currently, I'll see how this continues to folds out. A great way to waste 30 minutes.

To be honest, I don't think there's much more to say. I love Athena, he loves Hina, and there's really nothing wrong with either choice. Both of us knew going into this that our tastes are very different, so things can get sort of heated, but I honestly had a lot of fun. So thanks, Mentar.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by musouka

To be honest, I don't think there's much more to say. I love Athena, he loves Hina, and there's really nothing wrong with either choice. Both of us knew going into this that our tastes are very different, so things can get sort of heated, but I honestly had a lot of fun. So thanks, Mentar.

Well, I'm glad we were able to keep it civil till the end ... overall I have to say that I did enjoy it. And I'll at least say that as a result of the discussion, I'll try to give Athena a fair shake in the future.

There were a couple of things I realized during the discussion:

1) It's surprisingly easy to lose the emotional detachment during the discussion. I feel a genuine _strong_ empathy for Hina, and it _angers_ me when I feel she's unfairly criticized or not given her due. The same will hold true for others and their respective favorites.

2) This is the real revelation for me: My ethical beliefs are clearly not shared by a large amount of people, to a degree that I did not expect to see. Obviously, genuine and honest selfishness leading to success is preferred to doubt-ridden self-reflected altruism. Even more: Eventually deciding against yourself and for others is seen as a "weakness", a flaw. This is the exact opposite of how I see it, but seen in this light, it makes alot of assessments and opinions on this board much more clear.

A question to those who took the Athena side in this argument and are willing to say: How many of you come from the US?