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Old 2010-03-01, 09:01   Link #5941
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That was a really good debate to read, so thank you to both of you from a Nagi fan.
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Old 2010-03-01, 09:45   Link #5942
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I still think Hina should have her own manga. Let's be honest, she's not the main character in HnG, yet she's the hero(ine) of the story. Hata should just give her a story of her own. She just moves on from Hayate to find someone who really values what she does, and who loves her in return for those things, and for who she is. In fact, since yuri sells so well these days, perhaps Hata should set up Ayumu as Hina's love interest. One day Hina would realise how much suppport and encouragement she's received from Ayumu, and then, just as in the Revolve side story, Hina would realise she's actually bi, and she'd fall for Ayumu. The story would be about Hina's heroic adventures and her love with Ayumu. That, my friends, is what I call instant success.
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Old 2010-03-01, 10:28   Link #5943
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*grin*

Oh, I'd buy that. Or sub that if it was going to be made into an anime

To be honest, I'm not all THAT hung up on Hayate. But I _do_ want Hina (and Ayumu) to find happiness. Both deserve to be rewarded.
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Old 2010-03-01, 11:07   Link #5944
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HnG is the show of polygamy, every pairing will include more than 2 people

Hayate x Athena X Nagi
Hinagiku x Ayumu x Niki
Wataru x Sakuya x Saki
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Old 2010-03-01, 14:59   Link #5945
Jiraya2
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Originally Posted by _blahhead_ View Post
Ahh, what an entertaining debate. Though I am tilted towards one side currently, I'll see how this continues to folds out. A great way to waste 30 minutes.
Right, a very interesting debate.

Mentar is certainly right: there is some cultural gap.
As for me, I am from Europe. Our difference do not matter as long as we try to understand them and keep an open-minded attitude.

I agree too that Hina deserves her own story. But I heard the Autor planned that at the beginning. He planned to relate the story about two sister (Hina and Yukiji).
Nevertheless this story is really nice as it is right now.

Well, I sympathise with Hina, but not as much as Nagi.
Nagi, at the present time, does not have a single chance to end with Hayate, because she is still a little girl.
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Old 2010-03-01, 16:01   Link #5946
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Well, I'm glad we were able to keep it civil till the end ... overall I have to say that I did enjoy it. And I'll at least say that as a result of the discussion, I'll try to give Athena a fair shake in the future.
I think that's more than fair. And I appreciate your spirited defense of Hinagiku, and hope she'll have a large role in things to come. (Of course, seeing her popularity, it'd be more surprising if she didn't.)

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I feel a genuine _strong_ empathy for Hina, and it _angers_ me when I feel she's unfairly criticized or not given her due.
I'd imagine that's even worse when you think the series itself is shafting her unfairly. I admit that I'd probably feel differently if Hina was my favorite character, and I was emotionally invested in seeing her succeed in her endeavors.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
This is the real revelation for me: My ethical beliefs are clearly not shared by a large amount of people, to a degree that I did not expect to see. Obviously, genuine and honest selfishness leading to success is preferred to doubt-ridden self-reflected altruism. Even more: Eventually deciding against yourself and for others is seen as a "weakness", a flaw. This is the exact opposite of how I see it, but seen in this light, it makes alot of assessments and opinions on this board much more clear.
Now, I don't really think that's fair. Because to make that assumption, you have to agree that Hina is a "altruist" and Athena is "selfish", when the last three or four veeeery long pages have been debating whether those labels even fully apply to them. To frame the debate that way means you're ignoring that other people's perception of the characters aren't the same as your own.

Is accepting when someone offers you help selfish? Is foregoing a promise to help a friend with her love life because you've fallen in love with the same boy altruistic? I don't think the characters can be broken down so clearly on one side or the other.

Me wanting Athena to "win" is based on a lot of different factors. I honestly like the romantic dynamic she and Hayate have together. Their feelings are mutual, which is a big one for me. (I find it hard these days to root for a romance that ignores so much of one character's lack of feelings for the sake of making another character happy, but I understand many people don't have that problem.)

And, most importantly, I like to reward characters for their honesty and courage, which is also a virtue. Athena's feelings are her own. Even expressing them to Hayate doesn't mean that they will be acknowledged, because she doesn't know that he feels the same way about her. As far as she knows, he left her ten years ago, and doesn't feel anything romantically for her any more. Opening yourself up to someone, making yourself vulnerable to them is a high form of trust. And for a character like Athena, who doesn't seem to want to rely on anyone, it must be even harder to finally break down and admit "I want to be with you."

So basically, it's not that I want to see selfishness rewarded and think altruism is a flaw, it's that I admire Athena's brand of courage, and think what I see as Hina's retreat in the face of uncertain victory is a flaw.

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A question to those who took the Athena side in this argument and are willing to say: How many of you come from the US?
Well, I'm from the US, but I don't think that has too much to do with it. Of course, culture plays a part, but I don't think Athena's fans come solely from the United States. I know in the Hayate complaints thread on 2ch, they were blaming Athena's popularity on fujoshi...
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Old 2010-03-01, 21:54   Link #5947
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Well, I am from Hong Kong and move to US around 15 years ago and I am rooting for Hina.
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Old 2010-03-02, 05:53   Link #5948
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Now, I don't really think that's fair. Because to make that assumption, you have to agree that Hina is a "altruist" and Athena is "selfish", when the last three or four veeeery long pages have been debating whether those labels even fully apply to them. To frame the debate that way means you're ignoring that other people's perception of the characters aren't the same as your own.
One man's "selfishness" is another (wo)man's "honesty and courage". What I'm referring to is the undeniable reversal of Athena's earlier decisions to stay away from Hayate and to sacrifice herself to save everyone. I'd ask you to ignore the connotations of the word "selfishness" this time and try to see the point of the bigger picture I'm trying to make.

I see several people - including you - weighing the genuine announcement of noble intentions as a praiseworthy deed in itself, as an indication of a noble character, even when they are factually discarded later. Moreover, the discarding of them is subsequently rather lauded than criticized, as "honest" and the likes. Success makes sexy. She is rewarded for this, and people are happy about that.

And I think I recognize this pattern of behavior. In my life I've been traveling for quite a bit, and I've seen this trait _particularly_ in Americans. The focus on personal success, no matter how. The glorification of worthy goals, the celebration of lofty announcements, and the shruggy discarding of them if they're in the way of being successful later. And - finally - the indifference towards those who fall by the wayside as victims of the success. Their own fault for not trying hard enough.

This - in my life experience - is a very typical mindset I've found in countless Americans. Not all, of course, but in a much higher percentage than in any other cultural circle I've visited. And that's why I was curious if those people who seem to exhibit this mindset happen to be mostly Americans on this board, too

Quote:
Is accepting when someone offers you help selfish?
No

Quote:
Is foregoing a promise to help a friend with her love life because you've fallen in love with the same boy altruistic?
No, that's betrayal. Realizing and apologizing for it is classy. And altruistic is to just kindly forgive the transgression and to encourage the other one to pursue her romantic hopes anyway.

Quote:
I don't think the characters can be broken down so clearly on one side or the other.
A certain degree of haziness can't be avoided. Nobody is perfect all the time. But overall, I do think that general assessments can be made. Feel free to disagree with them, though.

Quote:
Me wanting Athena to "win" is based on a lot of different factors. I honestly like the romantic dynamic she and Hayate have together. Their feelings are mutual, which is a big one for me. (I find it hard these days to root for a romance that ignores so much of one character's lack of feelings for the sake of making another character happy, but I understand many people don't have that problem.)
My ideal of a partnership is when both partners are genuinely committed to make _the other one_ happy (rather than concentrating on themselves). I can also personally attest that this is by far the most satisfying and uplifting form out of all experiences I've personally made. So, I do feel a natural affinity for altruism.

Quote:
And, most importantly, I like to reward characters for their honesty and courage, which is also a virtue. Athena's feelings are her own. Even expressing them to Hayate doesn't mean that they will be acknowledged, because she doesn't know that he feels the same way about her. As far as she knows, he left her ten years ago, and doesn't feel anything romantically for her any more. Opening yourself up to someone, making yourself vulnerable to them is a high form of trust. And for a character like Athena, who doesn't seem to want to rely on anyone, it must be even harder to finally break down and admit "I want to be with you."
You do realize that she never did that before her final change of heart culminating in "HAYATEEEE!!", right? Although I agree that afterwards, she'll be more on the active side. But from my point of view, it's not like she had really been courageously baring her soul to him ^_^;

Quote:
So basically, it's not that I want to see selfishness rewarded and think altruism is a flaw, it's that I admire Athena's brand of courage, and think what I see as Hina's retreat in the face of uncertain victory is a flaw.
I think you're conflating different things here. Whatever Hina did _after_ she learned that Hayate had a "suki na hito" was not based on fear of losing. No, the Hina-mode was simple: She was lecturing Hayate that he should _make sure_ of Athena's feelings (while at the same time hating herself for telling Hayate to do exactly what she failed to do in the past). The retreat she made then was not because she thought she would lose in a competition against Athena, she felt that she had no place in breaking into this relationship not that she knew that Hayate was not "free". Here, as a friend to Hayate, she felt she had to help him to either get back together with Athena, or to help him find closure.

I do agree that BEFORE learning of Athena, it was her fear of losing that precluded her from confessing, along with her self-consciousness about her lacking femininity. But I didn't find this aspect of her as tiring as it obviously was to you.
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Old 2010-03-02, 06:31   Link #5949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I see several people - including you - weighing the genuine announcement of noble intentions as a praiseworthy deed in itself, as an indication of a noble character, even when they are factually discarded later. Moreover, the discarding of them is subsequently rather lauded than criticized, as "honest" and the likes. Success makes sexy. She is rewarded for this, and people are happy about that.
But we didn't reach a conclusion of whether or not she had actually discarded her intentions before Hayate actually won. What she was doing was vague, but the story also mentions that was was "about to disappear" from an outside source. That's what spurred Hina into action. The fact that Hayate reached her at the climax of her thoughts can't be taken as proof that she had discarded her original goal.

I guess I'm still a little confused. Are you blaming her for not dying?

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And - finally - the indifference towards those who fall by the wayside as victims of the success. Their own fault for not trying hard enough.
Hmm, I'm not sure how this connects to the conversation we're having. I hold people responsible for their own actions, but that doesn't mean I'm indifferent to suffering. Personally, I think Hina had plenty of time to confess before this point, so, yes, she does take some responsibility for allowing pride and fear to stay her hand until Hayate figured out exactly how he felt towards Athena.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
My ideal of a partnership is when both partners are genuinely committed to make _the other one_ happy (rather than concentrating on themselves).
Yes, this is why I like Athena/Hayate, because I do see them as fixed on the other person's happiness at the expense of their own.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
You do realize that she never did that before her final change of heart culminating in "HAYATEEEE!!", right? Although I agree that afterwards, she'll be more on the active side. But from my point of view, it's not like she had really been courageously baring her soul to him ^_^;
No, that's the point. Until that moment, there were things that Athena had kept from him about herself and her feelings, even as far back as EotW. Heck, her motivation for her big fight in that arc was her trying to protect him from his parents, but since she didn't explain it clearly to him, all it did was cause a huge, hurtful misunderstanding.

So it's not that I admire Athena for being a naturally open person, I admire her for not being a naturally open person, but for finally taking that plunge and being honest. Just like how you value Hina's heroic nature because it comes with an inner struggle, I value Athena's honesty because it comes with an inner struggle.

Let me put it this way. Would you have called Hina selfish if she had confessed to Hayate before she knew his feelings about Athena, hypothetically?

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I think you're conflating different things here. Whatever Hina did _after_ she learned that Hayate had a "suki na hito" was not based on fear of losing.
No, that's not what I'm trying to say. What I'm saying is that when it comes to Hayate, Hina sort of wants a "sure win" before she puts herself on the line and confesses, meaning her own pride and fear are more important to her than perhaps making a romantic connection to Hayate...until it's too late. Or to put it another way, she was more afraid of rejection than she wanted to be together with Hayate. Being afraid of rejection is natural, so I don't really "blame" Hina for it, per say, but I do think it was the flaw that lead to her own undoing.
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Old 2010-03-02, 07:07   Link #5950
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post


So it's not that I admire Athena for being a naturally open person, I admire her for not being a naturally open person, but for finally taking that plunge and being honest. Just like how you value Hina's heroic nature because it comes with an inner struggle, I value Athena's honesty because it comes with an inner struggle.
That's what I most enjoy about a story too, not the destination but the journey. It wouldn't be as much fun if the characters don't change and develop. Likewise as Hina is altruistic in her actions and I do like her for it, I would enjoy watching her go from Altruistic to selfish more, just as how musouka enjoys watching Athena from being someone who keeps secrets and too someone being openly honest to the person she loves.

Entertainment is all about watching someone change, whether in their personality, abilities or a mixture of both. Without it you might as watch a chair, well still be a chair...
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Old 2010-03-02, 07:20   Link #5951
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I don't really mind Hina being an altruist since I'm not really concerned. As far as altruism goes, perhaps I shouldn't have pitied her as much since she may have cried the tears of joy when watching Hayate and Athena embraced one another knowing their story of of 10 years.

Or was she cry the tears of sadness after Athena was saved because she realized that she couldn't obtain the happiness she thought Athena was having? Personally, I'd like her more if she cried the tears of sadness.
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Old 2010-03-02, 07:50   Link #5952
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
But we didn't reach a conclusion of whether or not she had actually discarded her intentions before Hayate actually won. What she was doing was vague, but the story also mentions that was was "about to disappear" from an outside source. That's what spurred Hina into action. The fact that Hayate reached her at the climax of her thoughts can't be taken as proof that she had discarded her original goal.
I think that it's really obvious that she had (which in itself isn't all THAT damning IMHO, but she still had). Reread her inner monolog (this time with my annotations):

Code:
"It was fine... if you never called out my name again."        (I can bear being without you)
"If someone had given you the happiness I couldn't give you."  (If you're happy, it's fine)
"I was fine... if you never called out my name again."         (I can bear it)
"If you were happy... I was fine..."                           (Owwww! I can bear it...)
"I was..."                                                     (Owwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!)
"I was..."                                                     (It hurts!! *beginning to cry*)
"I want to see you..."                                         (No, I can't bear it after all.)
"I want to see you... Hayate"                                  (I want to be with you!)
"Call out my name once more..."                                (Save me!)
"Call out my name..."                                          (SAVE ME!)
"HAYATEEEE!!!!"
If that's no clear reversal to you, I don't know what could be. *scratch head*

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I guess I'm still a little confused. Are you blaming her for not dying?
Tempting thought ... no, this chapter showed that she did try to convince herself that she could bear it and stick with her decision to leave Hayate to Nagi. But in the end, she couldn't. She didn't have the strength for it, the sacrifice was too much for her. She wanted Hayate for herself after all.

Quote:
Hmm, I'm not sure how this connects to the conversation we're having. [...]
This part wasn't directed at you personally, but others in this thread. I smelled quite a whiff of "it's Hina's own fault, tough shit" in here.

Quote:
Yes, this is why I like Athena/Hayate, because I do see them as fixed on the other person's happiness at the expense of their own.
Well, not quite, only to a degree ... see Athena above. It was too painful for Athena to be without him. But there's no need to quarrel over this aspect here, Athena has certainly proven to be dedicated enough to care for Hayate. If the bugger is around for her, too.

However, fairness dictates to mention that dedication to Hayate is no unique selling point of Athena. Ayumu, Hina and Nagi all qualify for that, aswell.

Quote:
[...]So it's not that I admire Athena for being a naturally open person, I admire her for not being a naturally open person, but for finally taking that plunge and being honest. Just like how you value Hina's heroic nature because it comes with an inner struggle, I value Athena's honesty because it comes with an inner struggle.
Fair enough. I have no qualms with that.

Quote:
Let me put it this way. Would you have called Hina selfish if she had confessed to Hayate before she knew his feelings about Athena, hypothetically?
No. Love always implies a certain selfish element, but under the circumstances back then, I don't see why it would have been selfish.

Quote:
No, that's not what I'm trying to say. What I'm saying is that when it comes to Hayate, Hina sort of wants a "sure win" before she puts herself on the line and confesses, meaning her own pride and fear are more important to her than perhaps making a romantic connection to Hayate...until it's too late. Or to put it another way, she was more afraid of rejection than she wanted to be together with Hayate. Being afraid of rejection is natural, so I don't really "blame" Hina for it, per say, but I do think it was the flaw that lead to her own undoing.
Well, ultimately she actually DID confess, in a way - Hayate simply didn't get it

But overall I agree with you, with the minimal qualification "her fear of rejection took so long to overcome that her time window ran out". Her desire to be with Hayate DID eventually overcome her fears. Only, it was too late by then.

All "for the time being", of course. I'm not quite willing to throw in the towel just yet *grin*
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Old 2010-03-02, 10:01   Link #5953
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I think that it's really obvious that she had (which in itself isn't all THAT damning IMHO, but she still had). Reread her inner monolog (this time with my annotations):

Spoiler for uhh...:

If that's no clear reversal to you, I don't know what could be. *scratch head*
Well, that's a different perception you have there.
I have no doubt that Hayate or Athena can and will easily sacrifice for one another. But what she really wanted, her innermost desire, was to be saved by Hayate and to be by his side, rather than dying. That was her honesty. I don't really see the reversal of Athena stopping the process.
I think when Athena decided and prevented herself from meeting Hayate, which she most certainly did, while he was so close was MUCH more painful for her than to die for him.
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Old 2010-03-02, 10:14   Link #5954
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Look. I know you're the most dedicated Athena shipper on this board. But please just accept the boundaries of logic once in a while.

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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Well, that's a different perception you have there.
I have no doubt that Hayate or Athena can and will easily sacrifice for one another. But what she really wanted, her innermost desire, was to be saved by Hayate and to be by his side, rather than dying.
Either she wanted to sacrifice herself OR she wanted to be saved. Either-or. There is no middle way.

And the excerpt I quoted proved that she is contradicting herself within seconds. First, it was okay never to hear Hayate say her name again, and a few seconds later, she begs for exactly that. THIS IS A CHANGE.

She does not really want to sacrifice herself. She wants to be with Hayate after all. That's what this whole scene is about. It's the whole POINT.
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Old 2010-03-02, 10:44   Link #5955
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Either she wanted to sacrifice herself OR she wanted to be saved. Either-or. There is no middle way.
She can sacrifice herself, but she'd rather be saved by him. When people sacrifice for the others, it doesn't necessarily means that wanted to die. When you want to and willing to sacrifice yourself for your family members, it doesn't necessarily means you wanted to die, but you WILL MOST certainly rather want to live to spend more time with them. That was Athena's innermost desires, that was her true desire, that was her honest wish.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And the excerpt I quoted proved that she is contradicting herself within seconds. First, it was okay never to hear Hayate say her name again, and a few seconds later, she begs for exactly that. THIS IS A CHANGE.

She does not really want to sacrifice herself. She wants to be with Hayate after all. That's what this whole scene is about. It's the whole POINT.
She thought she'd be fine and she tried to be strong without Hayate's being by her side, putting his happiness above hers. But she was not as strong as she thought she can be by herself although she tried and did it. Everything she expressed was her true inner desires, that was her honesty, which she failed and can't express for Hayate's sake.

No, the point was "willing" to sacrifice, and Athena was "willing" to do it. Admit it, no one "want" to die, but rather to be with their love ones.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-03-02 at 10:58.
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Old 2010-03-02, 11:22   Link #5956
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I don't see the problem with her change at the end, and I don't see how would that undermine the sacrifice she had done for Hayate. She could have met him before, easily, but she rather put his happiness above her own. She did the same thing twice in this arc: the first time when they met again, and the second time when Hayate got knocked out by Machina. In the end, when Midas was almost at full control, and she was about to die, I think it was only natural for her to be unable to bear her own feelings, and to desire some happiness.
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Old 2010-03-02, 11:50   Link #5957
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Well, at least you DO realize that there WAS a change.

Let me ask you something: Let's say your daughter is a hefty girl and announces that she isn't going to eat chocolate cake anymore. And indeed, you see her passing the bakery for a while. During the exams she's stressed out and just can't take it anymore, so she goes to the bakery, gets one and eats it.

Are you going to praise her for keeping her diet?

Oh, before I forget: Are you an American?
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Old 2010-03-02, 12:35   Link #5958
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1. Your example is completely unrelated. In fact, it's a terrible analogy. Please, let us be rational here, and not argue for the sake of arguing. Anyway, I think a better example would be if my daughter was going through some tough situation, but she didn't tell me anything in order not to burden me, so that I could be at ease.

Would I be angry if, at some point, my daughter felt she couldn't keep up with her burden, and sought for my help? Fuck no, in fact, I'd b angry because she didn't seek for my help before.

2. Whilst I'm certainly from the American continent, I'm not from the USA nor do I live there. I'm South American.
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Old 2010-03-02, 12:51   Link #5959
Game8910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Let me ask you something: Let's say your daughter is a hefty girl and announces that she isn't going to eat chocolate cake anymore. And indeed, you see her passing the bakery for a while. During the exams she's stressed out and just can't take it anymore, so she goes to the bakery, gets one and eats it.

Are you going to praise her for keeping her diet?
it depends on what is causing he stress, if she is stressed because of her exams and feels like having a cake is the only way she can calm down then there is no problem AT ALL in breaking the vow THIS ONCE. If she were to continue after that then we could start talking.

If she was stressed because she wasnt eating cake and then gave in because she couldnt handle her need for cake then it would be a different scenario.

Also I agree with zod that there is a difference between want Athena WANTED and what she was GOING TO DO. The quote you posted shows what Athena had CHOSEN TO BELIEVE about being with Hayate, at the very end she could no longer keep her act and truly WISHED he could save her, so she did change her mind in that regard in the end. But that does not mean that her dedication in trying to destroy herself with Midas was gone...right before she was saved, her mindset was something along the lines of "Im going to destroy myself, but I really wish Hayate could save me". Also remember that in the real timeline that entire scene must have happened in a matter of a few minutes (less than 5 IMO)...so for all we know Athena could've been trying to destroy herself, we dont really know how long a self destruction spell really takes to prepare so speculating that she gave up on destroying herself is silly from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Oh, before I forget: Are you an American?
This is completely irrelevant to everything, being american changes nothing...not all americans have the same set of beliefs and values so trying to question people's beliefs based on their nationality is pretty inaccurate.
PS: I live in Canada, but was born and raised in Peru (South America) since I was 12. I am now 20
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Old 2010-03-02, 13:15   Link #5960
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
1. Your example is completely unrelated. In fact, it's a terrible analogy. Please, let us be rational here, and not argue for the sake of arguing.
And why is it a "terrible analogy"? Except for that you dislike its result? What I am pointing out and what you are desperately trying to ignore is that there is a difference between announcing/intending something and actually DOING it. I found it very puzzling that the mere declaration of wanting to sacrifice herself was hailed and praised, and then the fact that she didn't do it COMPLETELY IGNORED.

A genuine, good intention in itself is laudable. A genuine attempt to fulfill it, even more. But it is NOT on the same level as _doing_ it. And if you CHANGE YOUR MIND because you don't want to do it after all, we should tone down the praise on the mere good intention significantly. You should be honest enough to do so.

Completed Good Deed >> Tried and failed Good Intention. Period.

Quote:
Anyway, I think a better example would be if my daughter was going through some tough situation, but she didn't tell me anything in order not to burden me, so that I could be at ease.

Would I be angry if, at some point, my daughter felt she couldn't keep up with her burden, and sought for my help? Fuck no, in fact, I'd b angry because she didn't seek for my help before.
This is a pretty bad analogy for your position, because it would mean that we should be angry at Athena for her sacrifice idea. I don't quite recall you like that.

So, to sum it up, before tempers flare to the heaven again. My position.

1) I believe that Athena genuinely thought that sacrificing herself to save others was the right thing to do

2) Personally I'm not convinced that Athena's inner dialog was part of her "sacrifice to save the others" activity (I think she dropped it when she saw the fight ongoing), but for the sake of argument, let's stipulate that she was still doing it

3) It's evident beyond reasonable doubt that she CHANGED HER MIND. She was NOT able to proceed, because her longing for Hayate was too big. That's why she called out to him.

4) Deciding against dying is hardly grounds for criticizing her. It's human. But at the same time, let's tone down the sacrifice worship some. She is no martyr.
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