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Old 2010-02-26, 16:39   Link #2001
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
It wasn't as much as a snap as a simple sentence, attempting to maintain a level of civility.
Mh, I didn't see anyone being rude, but I might have missed something.
Oh well, moving on!

Quote:
The problem was killing Shirley, thus following the excuses and accusations, yes... he had issues, butt hat doesn't account to his actions.
I think that depends. In court, for example, he'd probably get off pretty lightly. He just doesn't have much of a concept of right and wrong, and considering his age and the way he grew up, I don't believe he's the one to blame for that.

Quote:
I don't really care about Rolo, in general. I prefer just to point out my viewings of the character and be done with it. Argue amongst yourselves, if you really want to.
If you state your opinion in a forum, expect people to react, since most use it to actually dicuss things.
If I went to the Shirley thread and said she got what she deserved, for whatever reasons, people would be perfectly within their right to try and argue the point. The same is true for the Rolo thread - he might not have been very moral, but he's still likeable to a lot of people.
Of course, no one can force you to join the discussion, but on purpose or not, it's you who started it.

Quote:
He also seemed to have no remorse of killing former allies, either. But... thats all I want to point out.
That's because the only thing Rolo values, the only thing he understands is valuable, is family.
Ironically, Shirley probably came closest to making him understand "friendship", as well, but, well, Code Geass hates its characters.
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Old 2010-02-26, 16:48   Link #2002
azul120
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Which would all be fine and dandy, but as blade stated, he lied about his reasons for killing Shirley to Lelouch, making it a Moral Event Horizon crossing event.
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Old 2010-02-26, 17:00   Link #2003
aya_kari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Which would all be fine and dandy, but as blade stated, he lied about his reasons for killing Shirley to Lelouch, making it a Moral Event Horizon crossing event.
But how could he tell him he had killed her out of jealousy and/or fear of being replaced by Nunnally if that was PRECISELY the one topic he didn't dare bring up in front of Lelouch? It is because Rolo knows the real answer to the question "will you leave me alone if Nunnally comes back?" that he never asks him directly, instead trying to make her disappear in a way that might seem unavoidable and unrelated to him. If he just confessed that he actually hates Nunnally and doesn't want her to be reunited with Lelouch, well, he would give up any chance of receiving any of his appreciation anymore
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Old 2010-02-26, 17:12   Link #2004
azul120
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It was in the way Rolo carried himself though when he talked to Lelouch regarding the act of killing Shirley, coolly and remorselessly, as if he had nothing to hide or be at fault for, when it was anything but.

And during the battle over Tokyo a few episodes earlier, in his inner monologue, he states his feelings that he is the only sibling Lelouch needs, as per his intention to kill Nunnally.

Classic Yandere/Murder the Hypotenuse, only with a brocon spin.
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Old 2010-02-26, 22:18   Link #2005
Roloko vi Britannia
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wow I just started and it looks like I already got caught up in an argument. I never liked Shirley and it didn't bother me when she died, but hey thats just me I don't expect anyone else to have the same opinion or share the same thoughts. Well on a different note lets see my favorite Het paring for Rolo would be Rolo/Nunally ever since I seen a fan made video on Youtube I thought it was cute and I started supporting that paring too. also me and my friend on Gaia was talking about the Rolo/Sayoko crack paring lol
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Old 2010-02-26, 22:32   Link #2006
azul120
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Even if you didn't like Shirley, there was no excuse for her getting killed by Rolo like that. She had done absolutely nothing to deserve it.
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Old 2010-02-27, 01:07   Link #2007
Roloko vi Britannia
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maybe not, but she could have stayed outside and waited for Lelouch then told him she wanted to help him. The police officer gave her a warning not to go inside the building cause there was a terrorist inside but instead she went in anyways and she was given a consequence the whole incident could have been avoided at least for then if she just did what the officer told her to do.
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Old 2010-02-27, 01:23   Link #2008
azul120
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Originally Posted by Roloko vi Britannia View Post
maybe not, but she could have stayed outside and waited for Lelouch then told him she wanted to help him. The police officer gave her a warning not to go inside the building cause there was a terrorist inside but instead she went in anyways and she was given a consequence the whole incident could have been avoided at least for then if she just did what the officer told her to do.
Which is true, but beside the point, and can be taken as an attempt to deflect the blame from Rolo, who had previously given Shirley no reason to distrust him.
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Old 2010-02-27, 07:31   Link #2009
Nogitsune
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Rolo and Sayoko? Ha, want to see that. xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Even if you didn't like Shirley, there was no excuse for her getting killed by Rolo like that. She had done absolutely nothing to deserve it.
And still it doesn't need to bother someone who didn't like Shirley.
Or even someone who liked her. *points at herself*

Yes, Rolo didn't feel remorse, but that's because killing is natural for him, and friendship is a concept he doesn't understand. To him, although he actually hesitated for a moment, it turned out to be the same as killing a stranger, which is what he was raised to do.
Normally, I blame characters for their actions even if they have their reasons, but I just can't see someone who grew up the way Rolo did act much differently.
And even if I did think it was solely Rolo's fault, it still wouldn't make me like him any less.
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Old 2010-02-27, 08:31   Link #2010
aya_kari
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I even got the impression that Lelouch blamed it more on the Cult than on Rolo himself, otherwise I doubt he would have been able to keep the act. I think, on the inside, he was aware that it had been partly his fault too, just as he seems to accept when he takes full responsibility for her death in front of Suzaku.

By this I just mean that... I'd say the writers wanted us to empathize with Lelouch's position and thus forgive Rolo like he did at the end... Taniguchi said that Rolo was supposed to be a character "you feel pity for", and seeing how much they love the kid, I can't imagine them wanting to portray him as a remorseless horrible creature. This much is clear, but then again, of course, it is in the interpretation given by the one watching where the true meaning lies, not in the interpretation intended by the creators (that's why literary works can be re-analyzed so many times, isn't it? )
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Old 2010-02-27, 08:39   Link #2011
Sol Falling
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However pitiful a character's past is, pity alone is not enough to make me like a character. Actually, as far as I'm concerned, pity is a pretty useless emotion (edit: in view of the post above, lol this is a pretty appropriate argument). I completely agree with anybody who says that Rolo had no choice; could not have acted in any other manner, because of the way he'd lived and been raised, but forgiveness isn't the issue here. The reason I reject Rolo is because he has no meaningful qualities aside from being pitiable. People who've undergone hardships and painful pasts can be found everywhere. The point, in my view, is always what you can achieve despite the hardships, or perhaps even what you can learn because of them. Unfortunately, in Rolo's case the answer to me is quite clearly, nothing significant.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2010-02-27, 10:14   Link #2012
aya_kari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
However pitiful a character's past is, pity alone is not enough to make me like a character. Actually, as far as I'm concerned, pity is a pretty useless emotion. I completely agree with anybody who says that Rolo had no choice; could not have acted in any other manner, because of the way he'd lived and been raised, but forgiveness isn't the issue here. The reason I reject Rolo is because he has no meaningful qualities aside from being pitiable. People who've undergone hardships and painful pasts can be found everywhere. The point is what you can achieve despite the hardships, or perhaps even what you can learn because of them, and in Rolo's case the answer is, pretty clear to say, nothing significant.
I have to disagree with this, or at least offer my interpretation. Rolo demonstrates an incredible amount of strength just by choosing to side with Lelouch after Turn 4. You might think that of course, he's doing it for his own good, but in real life, when presented with two options, one riskier than the other but which also offers the possibility of a better result, people will still usually take the easiest and most comfortable choice. By betraying the Cult and putting his faith in trusting Lelouch's words, he knows he is from then on both in danger of being discovered and finished by VV (as he states during Turn 8) AND of being abandoned by Lelouch, but he still prefers to take the risk rather than go on with a lifestyle that would also have meant many more murder victims, actually. It would have been a much less insecure option to just continue doing missions and allow others to decide his fate, but he is able to realize (even though nobody has taught him to use his own mind to judge what's going on around him. Or now that I think about it, perhaps Lelouch did during their year together; after all, during Turn 1 Lelouch mentions how he doesn't want to have to follow somebody else's orders, and describes that the ones on top take all decisions in an ironic manner) that he has the right to be in control of his own life, and that he is going to fight as much as is needed to finally gain the freedom and happiness any human deserves.

Indeed, in this process, he doesn't take Shirley's or Nunnally's well-being into consideration, but how do you expect him to take others into consideration when nobody's ever taken him into consideration before and he has always been exploited and had his rights as a human negated (VV blatantly calls him "defective merchandise")? Nobody is willing to help or even understand Rolo on his quest for freedom and happiness (and Lelouch clearly willingly ignores Rolo's need for affection [I say willingly because he must have been aware of it to come up with a plan that involved simply promising him a future and which he took for granted would result in Rolo immediatly switching sides]), so how could he trust or even value others when from his experience, he's arrived to the conclusion that they will try to prevent him from acquiring happiness? It is impressive enough that he is capable of valuing that Lelouch treated him kindly and that he's usually a pretty calm guy; he could have turned into a crazy person who just destroyed everything around him out of desperation, and he doesn't do that.

The effort he puts to keep clinging to hope despite the isolation and frustration that he must also endure is more than enough of a meaningful quality, for me, at least. As somebody who believes conformity is one of the most dangerous threats to society (like Ionesco, I am sure many unfortunate historical events caused by humans do not take place because the majority will profit from them, but rather because the majority do not care about complaining about them), I greatly admire the courage and will power of individuals who do fight against an unfair treatment, and pursue their self-fulfillment. I think valuing oneself is the first step into learning to fight for the rights of others too, and Rolo is a character who could tell, on his own, that he had the right to give his own life a meaning and strive for happiness, and who never gave up on this conviction. He isn't just a pitiable character, he's also a very, very strong boy . Just look at his marks, "above average", and he's never been to school before! He's the type to give his all in trying to do things the best way possible, and even though he made mistakes that brought a lot of pain to other people, I would not say he truly held bad intentions or that his aspirations were incorrect.

Last edited by aya_kari; 2010-02-28 at 06:46.
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Old 2010-02-27, 11:30   Link #2013
Roloko vi Britannia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aya_kari View Post
I have to disagree with this, or at least offer my interpretation. Rolo demonstrates an incredible amount of strength just by choosing to side with Lelouch after Turn 4. You might think that of course, he's doing it for his own good, but in real life, when presented with two options, one riskier than the other but which also offers the possibility of a better result, people will still usually take the easiest and most comfortable choice. By betraying the Cult and putting his faith in trusting Lelouch's words, he knows he is from then on both in danger of being discovered and finished by VV (as he states during Turn 8) AND of being abandoned by Lelouch, but he still prefers to take the risk rather than go on with a lifestyle that would also have meant many more murder victims, actually. It would have been a much less insecure option to just continue doing missions and allow others to decide his fate, but he is able to realize (even though nobody has taught him to use his own mind to judge what's going on around him. Or now that I think about it, perhaps Lelouch did during their year together; after all, during Turn 1 Lelouch mentions how he doesn't want to have to follow somebody else's orders, and describes that the ones on top take all decisions in an ironic manner) that he has the right to be in control of his own life, and that he is going to fight as much as is needed to finally gain the freedom and happiness any human deserves.

Indeed, in this process, he doesn't take Shirley's or Nunnally's well-being into consideration, but how do you expect him to take others into consideration when nobody's ever taken him into consideration before and he has always been exploited and had his rights as a human negated (VV blatantly calls him "defective merchandise")? Nobody is willing to help or even understand Rolo on his quest for freedom and happiness (and Lelouch clearly willingly ignores Rolo's need for affection [I say willingly because he must have been aware of it to come up with a plan that involved simply promising him a future and which he took for granted would result in Rolo immediatly switching sides]), so how could he trust or even value others when from his experience, he's arrived to the conclusion that they will try to prevent him from acquiring happiness? It is impressive enough that he is capable of valuing that Lelouch treated him kindly and that he's usually a pretty calm guy; he could have turned into a crazy person who just destroyed everything around him out of desperation, and he doesn't do that.

The effort he puts to keep clinging to hope despite the isolation and frustration that he must also endure is more than enough of a meaningful quality, for me, at least. As somebody who believes conformity is one of the most dangerous threats to society (like Ionesco, I am sure many unfortunate historical events caused by humans do not take place because the majority will profit from them, but rather because the majority do not care about complaining about them), I greatly admire the courage and will power of individuals who do fight against an unfair treatment. I think valuing oneself is the first step into learning to fight for the rights of others too, and Rolo is a character who could tell, on his own, that he had the right to give his own life a meaning and strive for happiness, and who never gave up on this conviction. He isn't just a pitiable character, he's also a very, very strong boy . Just look at his marks, "above average", and he's never been to school before! He's the type to give his all in trying to do things the best way possible, and even though he made mistakes that brought a lot of pain to other people, I would not say he truly held bad intentions or that his aspirations were incorrect.
I strongly agree with you Aya Lelouch was the first person to ever think of him as a human instead of just a tool for killing and its kinda understandable that hes overprotective since during the time gap before Lelouch got his memories back he was the only person who ever truly cared for him. Well idk if this is offtopic or not I'm thinking about making a Rolo fan fic about Rolo's past before/during his time in the geass cult and after meeting Lelouch with a couple of crack theories I had.
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Old 2010-02-27, 13:42   Link #2014
azul120
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Rolo's problem, though not simply his own, was that he was chronically one-track minded, to the point that he only thought about Lelouch and no one or nothing else, even though the other Ashford student council members, Shirley included, were nothing but nice to him.
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Old 2010-02-27, 16:48   Link #2015
aya_kari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Rolo's problem, though not simply his own, was that he was chronically one-track minded, to the point that he only thought about Lelouch and no one or nothing else, even though the other Ashford student council members, Shirley included, were nothing but nice to him.
I think that perhaps, he couldn't really value their treating him well while their memories had been altered, because he knew they were "seeing" Nunnally rather than directing their friendship to him. Lelouch's kindness did affect him though, because they spent a lot of time together and knowing Lulu's siscon they were probably veeery close as well, but Rolo was too introverted to really spend much time with the rest of the students anyway, so it could never occur to him that others would regard him as friend just because he was there (even though they did). He's fascinated by how family members share a bond simply because they are connected by blood, so I doubt he ever realized that usually people are willing to treat others nicely without paying attention to what they will gain from it. When Shirley recovered her memories, she mentioned wanting to bring Lelouch's happiness back through reuniting him with his sister Nunnally almost right away, so her "threatening to separate Rolo from Lelouch's side" (as he must have interpreted her words, since Nunnally's return equals his expulsion) would convince him even more of his idea that nobody but Lelouch could ever appreciate his existence. I'm sure he would have been shocked to discover Milly still missed him after she had already gotten her real consciousness back (during PD9); he has been called a tool too often to expect that the average individual will most likely esteem him as a human, and that's why he can't even imagine that miraculously-incredibly-kind-souls like his brother's are actually not so rare as he believes .
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Old 2010-03-03, 09:47   Link #2016
Cephei Mordred
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Wow, 100 pages about Rolo?

Well, I have mixed feelings about him.

Pro:

The whole "gunslinger boy" thing works, and has provided some inspiration for an "overpragmatic" villain of my own.

Also, his death was an Alas Poor Villain moment for me.

Con:

He came off too much, in looks and tone, like some sort of yaoi uke. I imagine that this was intentional on the part of the makers, but I found it a turn off.
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Old 2010-03-03, 12:08   Link #2017
Nogitsune
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@aya_kari:
Love your insightful postings!

Concerning the friendship thing, I believe the scene with the fireworks shows very well that Rolo doesn't quite get it yet. He is clearly startled when Shirley says she'd have liked him to be there, too, and ultimately remains hidden in the doorway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cephei Mordred View Post
Con:

He came off too much, in looks and tone, like some sort of yaoi uke. I imagine that this was intentional on the part of the makers, but I found it a turn off.
*grins* Personally, I liked it.
And yes, it almost certainly was intentional. I mean, come on, the staff happily puts the guys into dresses, lets Lelouch and Suzaku pocky-kiss in crack Sound Dramas and gives us such awesome side-material as Sayoko's diary.
For a non-shounen-ai anime, Code Geass is pretty gay.
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Old 2010-03-03, 12:25   Link #2018
Cephei Mordred
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Ah.

I was getting some serious lesbian vibes from Sayoko a few times. Did the diary help confirm that?
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Old 2010-03-03, 12:26   Link #2019
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cephei Mordred View Post
Ah.

I was getting some serious lesbian vibes from Sayoko a few times. Did the diary help confirm that?
Hum, I just remember that she was convinced Lelouch was a corssdressed and had something going on with Suzaku.
But... you never know!
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Old 2010-03-05, 17:58   Link #2020
aya_kari
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@Nogitsune:
^^ Thanks! I try my best...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cephei Mordred View Post
Con:

He came off too much, in looks and tone, like some sort of yaoi uke. I imagine that this was intentional on the part of the makers, but I found it a turn off.
Well, I am a girl who, for one, usually find too much gratuitous BL (or het, or yuri) that is irrelevant to the plot to be pretty annoying, but I can't consider Rolo's case to be that of simple fanservice. His situation made it entirely plausible, almost even unavoidable, that he would fall in love with Lelouch. And the uke vibes mostly come from his being so obsessed with a girly locket (Lelouch kinda treated him as he would treat a little sister for an entire year xD it must have taken away some of Rolo's masculinity, if male Geass characters ever had such a thing) and his tool-complex (as much as he tries to fight against the idea of giving himself up to others, he has ultimately not yet escaped from that dependence on a dominant figure- in this case Lelouch, whom Rolo respects way too much to even think about picturing himself as the seme of the relationship during his... sexual fantasies that I bet he often had ).

Somehow to my eyes this makes Rolo adorable instead of a pervert
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