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Old 2010-03-03, 14:16   Link #5961
zodanhko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Nah, it's not angst. .
Believe me. I have seen your reactions about these few latest chapters..

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
It's kind of a "don't just surrender to the nutcases" stubborness, because a major part of me simply forced me to point out to you that you CANNOT want to sacrifice yourself and live at the same time.
Visiden wrote an essay just for you, something which also pointed out before.
I think you need to re-think of when to use "willing" and "wanting." I already assured you that Athena didn't want to die, but wanted to live. Honestly, like someone would want to/desire to die unless they have some psychological problems.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
So she yelled the classic "HAYATEEE!" save me line. If this admission is too much for you, there's no point in discussing things any further.
Even during the time of deaths, we can clearly see all her thoughts. No, she didn't think about "save me, save me," but all she thought about was "call my name, call my name" ---it was that important to her. If she was just thinking about to be saved, it's naturally to think about "save me, save me" when she was about to die. Yes, calling her name was even more important than saving her, and I doubt that she'd realize Hayate was able to Midas.
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Old 2010-03-03, 14:22   Link #5962
Game8910
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after debating this for like 3 pages I can now say this

I think I now see what mentar is trying to explain...for him, the thought of wanting 2 opposite things at once is impossible. You can only want 1 thing at a certain moment in time, your mind can jump back and forth between 2 choices but only 1 thing can be in your mind at 1 specific moment. It is true Athena chose to sacrifice herself, and she was willing to do so, but she also had the desire to be saved...she tried to ready her confidence 1 last time before doing the sacrifice, but this time her will finally cracked and her true inner desire to be saved took over and her wish to sacrifice herself no longer took #1 priority, she just happened to be lucky that Hayate really did show up at the most convenient moment as she had just yelled for him when he showed up (manga timing...whats new).

With that said, what if Hayate hadn't shown up? After Athena yells his name and Hayate doesnt show up, Im pretty sure we could stipulate that after cooling down a little (she didn't have much time left after all) Athena's thoughts of sacrifice would resurface and she would really seriously do it. Of course the way mentar puts it sometimes makes it sound like even after having her wish to be saved was spoken, if it were to go unanswered...she would've given up completely, which I just dont think is true.

So what the whole argument leads to is that while Athena had 2 things in her mind that she wanted to do, at the exact time of her rescue...her "rescue me" desire took a higher priority over her "sacrifice myself" desire since you can only be wanting 1 thing at once...or at least thats what I have been seeing mentar trying to explain...if this wasnt it...then everyone of us either sucks at explaining...or we are just too stubborn >_>
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Old 2010-03-03, 14:26   Link #5963
hinakatbklyn
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post

I believe that the readiness to die and the desire to die are different things. You may be ready to sacrifice yourself for others, but that doesn't mean you don't want to live. No one wants to die, unless they're suicidal or devoid of feelings. Additionally, it wasn't as if Athena was going to say "fuck you guys, I'm outta here". Had Hayate not saved her, she'd quite likely have let herself die.
Athena kept saying to herself even when trapped that she was OK with the way things were. But after a few moments, just when it seemed like she thought the end was inevitable, she ended up with doubts, so much that she had a change of heart and wanted Hayate (if nothing else) to save her (or call her name). It was at that moment right before Hayate saved Athena, that she realized she didn't want to go just yet. If her choice to give herself up was the most important, she wasn't thinking that when she called out Hayate's name.
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Old 2010-03-03, 15:31   Link #5964
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Game8910 View Post
after debating this for like 3 pages I can now say this

I think I now see what mentar is trying to explain...for him, the thought of wanting 2 opposite things at once is impossible. You can only want 1 thing at a certain moment in time, your mind can jump back and forth between 2 choices but only 1 thing can be in your mind at 1 specific moment. It is true Athena chose to sacrifice herself, and she was willing to do so, but she also had the desire to be saved...she tried to ready her confidence 1 last time before doing the sacrifice, but this time her will finally cracked and her true inner desire to be saved took over and her wish to sacrifice herself no longer took #1 priority, she just happened to be lucky that Hayate really did show up at the most convenient moment as she had just yelled for him when he showed up (manga timing...whats new).
THANK YOU!

I've got to admit that I had kinda given up and beginning to wonder if my explanations sucked so much. You have _exactly_ summed up what I was trying to say (with the minor exception that Athena knew that Hayate was around, and maybe she had even seen the arrival of reinforcements, so I wouldn't use the word "lucky"). It actually means quite a bit to me that at least ONE Athena shipper managed to understand me.

Quote:
With that said, what if Hayate hadn't shown up? After Athena yells his name and Hayate doesnt show up, Im pretty sure we could stipulate that after cooling down a little (she didn't have much time left after all) Athena's thoughts of sacrifice would resurface and she would really seriously do it. Of course the way mentar puts it sometimes makes it sound like even after having her wish to be saved was spoken, if it were to go unanswered...she would've given up completely, which I just dont think is true.
Well, Hayate WAS around, Athena was talking to him and relaying her battleplan to him. So everything would be very hypothetical here. But in my reading, her change of heart in her inner dialog rather had her spark of life flaring up rather than getting ready to be extinguished. So I'd rather have expected her to resume fighting than just fading away.

Quote:
So what the whole argument leads to is that while Athena had 2 things in her mind that she wanted to do, at the exact time of her rescue...her "rescue me" desire took a higher priority over her "sacrifice myself" desire since you can only be wanting 1 thing at once...or at least thats what I have been seeing mentar trying to explain...if this wasnt it...then everyone of us either sucks at explaining...or we are just too stubborn >_>
This is my interpretation of the timeline:

1) Athena explains her plan to Hayate. She wants to sacrifice herself to save Hayate and the others (IMHO genuine). She feels guilt-ridden for "always hurting him" and feels that "she brought it on herself" (we don't know what she's referring to yet). She's feeling downcast and feels this is the best thing she can do.

2) She mentally prepares herself for the deed. Reminiscing of the past with Hayate, trying to collect her strength and finding closure telling (rather: convincing) herself that she can bear it.

3) However, she can't bear the thought. It is NOT okay. She wants to hear his voice once more. She wants to live and be with him. Here she has a change of heart and regains her will to live, so she rather calls out for Hayate instead of going for the sacrifice.

4) And like with all other "HAYATEEEEEE!" summons, he's coming through to save her.

This is the explanation in which in MY opinion every detail fits. It explains the change of heart shown. It puts Athena in a parallel to Nagi and Hina, who had their "HAYATEEEEE!" moments before. And he delivers, like he's supposed to do.

My personal further interpretation: Like I wrote before, this is probably the most effective way for win over people like me who are not yet sold on the Athena idea. As the character who has the strongest wish to be with him. The strongest NEED to be with him. We'll see.

In any case, thanks again for putting in the effort, Game8910!
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Old 2010-03-03, 18:01   Link #5965
telamont
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
you CANNOT want to sacrifice yourself and live at the same time. It's not possible. It is _mutually exclusive_.
Mentar, to that I say... you CANNOT sacrifice yourself without wanting to live at the same time. It's not possible. You CANNOT have one without the other.

The very concept of sacrifice is "to give up something precious for the sake of others." The more precious it is, the greater the sacrifice. It is precisely because Athena had all these regrets, this strong desire to live that makes her decision to die for the sake of Hayate and the others a sacrifice. It is precisely why her decision can be considered noble and worthy of admiration.

Without a strong desire to live, her decision to die for others would have carried no weight. It would not have been a "sacrifice". It would have been a girl tired of life, deciding to...

a. Throw her life away at the first opportune moment.

b. End her life in a gainful way.

Take your pick. I look forward to your outraged rebuttal.
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Old 2010-03-03, 20:17   Link #5966
Mentar
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No point. What you write sounds like some 3rd-rate romance fiction, a great melodrama of life depicting a heroine filled with noble spirit on a glorious mission... but it has not even a remote resemblance with the story whatsoever. Athena didn't sacrifice herself - why not? What changed her mind? Your glorified laudatio gives no answer. At the time she told Hayate about her plan, she was desperate and downtrodden, in fact VERY tired of life as you put it. She considered it just punishment for her. It doesn't explain her change of heart and the rekindling of her determination afterwards.

Sorry, but no cigar. Not even a cigarette.
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Old 2010-03-03, 20:52   Link #5967
zodanhko
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First saying Athena didn't try to sacrifice herself, believing she wasn't even trying since there was no evident "IMO." Now believing she had no desire to live in the first place.

I don't think there is a sufficient way to prove someone wrong according to his logic and belief, since excuses and ideas can easily be made according to one's liking, if that case had not happen...in this case Athena had to die for her worth to be commended.
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Old 2010-03-04, 02:42   Link #5968
Mentar
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Last attempt before it's probably time to adjust my ignore list. Sorry, but at the moment it feels like discussing the fine points of a Grand Cru with an anti-alcoholic.

I'll match your statements with what I really said (see my 4 easy-to-understand points above)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
First saying Athena didn't try to sacrifice herself,
Not true. I wrote that Athena IMHO genuinely wanted to sacrifice herself (see point 1), but...

Quote:
[...]believing she wasn't even trying since there was no evident "IMO."
Yes. In my opinion there is no indication that her active sacrifice and unsummoning of herself and Midas has commenced. Like I wrote in 2), she was collecting herself and trying to find closure within her, but in 3) she had a change of heart, and so never got to start. I do accept Musouka's interpretation that Athena's thought process happened _during_ the sacrifice/unsummoning as possible, and in this case, she interrupted it eventually to cry for Hayate's help. This would be the started-but-didn't-finish case.

Quote:
Now believing she had no desire to live in the first place.
Not true. I wrote in response to telamont that Athena was desperate and downtrodden (that should be clear to EVERYONE reading the respective chapter) and that contrary to his implied suggestion that Athena had a "strong desire to live" at that point, she was much closer to
"tired of life", and there (extra addition now) close to option b).

To translate that to simpler English: It's not like she had a death wish when she announced her intention to Hayate. It's not like she _wished_ to die. But she wasn't exactly brimming with determination to survive either. She felt that sacrificing her life was the best option left for her, a "punishment she brought on herself" (her own words, which we still don't understand yet).

Quote:
I don't think there is a sufficient way to prove someone wrong according to his logic and belief, since excuses and ideas can easily be made according to one's liking, if that case had not happen...in this case Athena had to die for her worth to be commended.
I never said that either. Pure invention. What I rather said was:

A genuine, good intention in itself is laudable. A genuine attempt to fulfill it, even more. But it is NOT on the same level as _doing_ it. And if you CHANGE YOUR MIND because you don't want to do it after all, we should tone down the praise on the mere good intention significantly. You should be honest enough to do so.

Completed Good Deed >> Tried and failed Good Intention. Period.


If you want to continue this discussion, please be so kind and stop trying to summarize or interpret my position, you're making too many mistakes doing that. Instead, at least quote me.
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Old 2010-03-04, 04:32   Link #5969
Used Can
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I think we're all going in circles here. Now, for facts we all agree on we can list:

1. Athena in the end didn't want to die, and she wanted to be saved.
2. She didn't have to sacrifice herself because she was saved.

Now, Mentar's argument can be summarised in 2 points:

1. Athena wasn't fully determined to sacrifice herself, since in the end she changed her mind.
2. Athena shouldn't be praised for something she didn't do, since in the end she was saved.

The other side of the argument says:

1. The fact Athena wanted to be saved doesn't mean she wouldn't have sacrificed herself, if she had needed to do so.
2. That alone is enough to praise her.

In the end, I think both arguments meet an end-road, since we cannot tell what would have happened if Hayate had been unable to save her.

Personally, my opinion is very similar to that of Game8910. I believe that more than sacrificing herself, Athena truly wanted to be saved. In fact, I'll say that she never really wanted to sacrifice herself; she was willing to do it, but what she truly wanted from the very beginning was to be saved. However, at the same time, I also believe she would have sacrificed herself had she had to do so.

I think that the difference between "willing" and "wanting" is very important for this argument, as it breaks the contradiction Mentar pointed out. For example, I may be willing to buy my friend's used car, because he needs the money, but at the same time, I may also really want to buy a new car. The fact I want to buy a new car doesn't mean I won't buy my friend's used car. In fact, this is were sacrifice can be seen, since I'm willing to give up what I want to do, in order to help my friend. Naturally, it may happen that my friend wins the lottery, he no longer needs the money and I can end up buying a new car as I wanted. Now, is my intention less commendable because, in the end, I didn't have to buy my friend's used car, despite the fact I was perfectly willing to do if my friend needed the money? That, I believe, is a matter of personal opinion.

I think the same thing can be said about this situation. Naturally, there's still the big "what if," since we cannot say with certainty what would have happened if Hayate wasn't able to save Athena. However, the "willing to do" vs "wanting to do" can be seen perfectly. And just as in the previous example, I believe that whether Athena should be praised or not for her actions comes down to the point of view of each reader.
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Old 2010-03-04, 07:55   Link #5970
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Not true. I wrote in response to telamont that Athena was desperate and downtrodden (that should be clear to EVERYONE reading the respective chapter) and that contrary to his implied suggestion that Athena had a "strong desire to live" at that point, she was much closer to
"tired of life", and there (extra addition now) close to option b).

To translate that to simpler English: It's not like she had a death wish when she announced her intention to Hayate. It's not like she _wished_ to die. But she wasn't exactly brimming with determination to survive either. She felt that sacrificing her life was the best option left for her, a "punishment she brought on herself" (her own words, which we still don't understand yet).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Not true. I wrote that Athena IMHO genuinely wanted to sacrifice herself (see point 1), but...
"Tired of life" means that she had no reason to live for. And I think when you said you genuinely wanted to sacrifice pretty much meant that she desired "a death wish." I don't think she ever "wanted to sacrifice" herself and die off; and in contrary, I believe she had a strong desired to live, and she wanted to be rescue by Hayate from the beginning.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I never said that either. Pure invention. What I rather said was:

A genuine, good intention in itself is laudable. A genuine attempt to fulfill it, even more. But it is NOT on the same level as _doing_ it. And if you CHANGE YOUR MIND because you don't want to do it after all, we should tone down the praise on the mere good intention significantly. You should be honest enough to do so.

Completed Good Deed >> Tried and failed Good Intention. Period.

Spoiler for Used summed the points:

Because of the differences in the our perspectives, the only way to prove that she was willing to do it, and for you to accept it was for her being dead.
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Old 2010-03-04, 19:06   Link #5971
telamont
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No point. What you write sounds like some 3rd-rate romance fiction, a great melodrama of life depicting a heroine filled with noble spirit on a glorious mission... but it has not even a remote resemblance with the story whatsoever.


You do not disappoint Mentar. Yes, if that's what you took away from my argument, then no point indeed. Perhaps I should not have used Athena as an example, because just mentioning Athena and "sacrifice" in the same sentence seems to make you see red. What I was trying to refute is your statement that the desire to live and the will to sacrifice oneself can not possibly coexist. If we move away from that.... I'm not getting into an argument of "My opinion is more right than yours, my ship is truer than yours." No, thank you.

One last thing before I quit though. You don't find it funny? Or ironic? At all? That you of all people are accusing others of "melodramatically glorifying a heroine"?
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Old 2010-03-04, 21:44   Link #5972
GlassesLady
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
My personal further interpretation: Like I wrote before, this is probably the most effective way for win over people like me who are not yet sold on the Athena idea. As the character who has the strongest wish to be with him. The strongest NEED to be with him. We'll see.
I don't know about you, but that would in no way 'sell' the idea of Athena as Hayate's partner to me; in fact, it'd likely have the opposite effect. She's already possessive and possibly a yandere, she doesn't need 'needy' on top of that _ _'

Just putting in my two cents.
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Old 2010-03-04, 22:36   Link #5973
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She's already possessive
She's not possessive. She told Hayate how to leave the castle even though it's obvious she was afraid he wouldn't come back. Their fight was about her trying to "protect" him without properly explaining what she was protecting him from (in addition to him losing the ring), not about him being her "property" or what have you.

In fact, Athena is the only girl who has even said or thought "as long as he's happy" in regards to him having other people around him that he loves.

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and possibly a yandere
Being possessed is not the same thing as being a yandere.
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Old 2010-03-05, 03:21   Link #5974
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well Athena was allways alone...so its only narutal to think of Hayate as the only closest and most important person to her... and she wants to be with him becouse she loves him...

at least athena is the only girl that is really streight foward ^^ she dosnt hide what she wants....would it be a kiss, hug or sit between haytes legs and ask him to hug her warmly... so she knows what she wants and she doesnt hide it ^^ (at least she is frank with hayate about her feelings)......

so nah Athena is simply very lonely and she is scared to be alone so her character developed into a way that she can say streight foward what she needs... and what she desires...... well how would nagi feel if she had no Hayate or Maria around... and was alone all day in that big mansion.

and yeah just like @musouka said Athena is not possesive becouse she told hayate how to go out from the castle..... yet she was allways watching hayate with the mirror to see if he will return.... well offcouse as a girl she was jelous that some other girl gave hayate a kiss ^^ but this is natural between people that love each other that are simple jelous and scared of loseing that person..
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Old 2010-03-05, 03:53   Link #5975
zodanhko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Game8910 View Post
http://gamesmind.wordpress.com/2010/...-gotoku-ch263/
The spoilers for chapter 263 are up now....I am now really confused lol

Spoiler for ch263:
Now, have to wait and see whether or not Athena realized that was Hayate's bro.
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Old 2010-03-05, 03:57   Link #5976
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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Now, have to wait and see whether or not Athena realized that was Hayate's bro.
On the last page she says she didn't know who it was, but she mentions the scar on his forehead.
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Old 2010-03-05, 04:07   Link #5977
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
On the last page she says she didn't know who it was, but she mentions the scar on his forehead.
o0, thanks.

Hopefully, Hayate will be able to make some connections to his brother.
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Old 2010-03-05, 05:34   Link #5978
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
In fact, Athena is the only girl who has even said or thought "as long as he's happy" in regards to him having other people around him that he loves.
Two words: Nishizawa Ayumu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game8910 View Post
http://gamesmind.wordpress.com/2010/...-gotoku-ch263/
The spoilers for chapter 263 are up now....I am now really confused lol
What the fuck? XD

Anyway, I think this ends the "Hayate's bro is Nagi's father," as her father seemed to have light-coloured hair.

Either way, this is interesting, and Hayate's bro is awesome.
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Old 2010-03-05, 05:49   Link #5979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Two words: Nishizawa Ayumu


What the fuck? XD

Anyway, I think this ends the "Hayate's bro is Nagi's father," as her father seemed to have light-coloured hair.

Either way, this is interesting, and Hayate's bro is awesome.
Spoiler for Hayate's bro's scar:


and btw, where is the continual argument between "should Athena be praised?" I think used can make the perfect analogy but no one wants to talk about it anymore?
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Old 2010-03-05, 07:08   Link #5980
primuler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Game8910 View Post
http://gamesmind.wordpress.com/2010/...-gotoku-ch263/
The spoilers for chapter 263 are up now....I am now really confused lol

Spoiler for ch263:

Spoiler for Summary of the text:
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