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Old 2010-03-02, 23:26   Link #3041
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Old 2010-03-03, 05:10   Link #3042
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
I'm surprised the time traveler whose only known name is a blatant alias hasn't completely shattered that theory yet.
It's because it's a blatant alias that the theory still holds. We know he's got a full name, he just hasn't given it yet. Either we'll find out his full name or he'll pull a delayed Nakagawa (or more likely have one pulled on him) and end up with Fujiwara as his only known name. Every other character in the series follows that rule, if you assume Mori and the Tamaru brothers (if they really are brothers) are espers.
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Old 2010-03-03, 12:29   Link #3043
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1. Technically speaking, the word is mirai-jin. You can't remove the fact that the guy is from the future the same way you can remove someone's esper/pseudo-esper powers, and it's made pretty clear that he didn't get dragged along like Kyon did.

2. The fact that you have to assume those three are espers is pretty telling as it is.

3. Miyoko Yoshimura, also known as Miyokichi. There is absolutely no evidence that she is anything other than what she seems.

Seriously, that theory should be dead by now.
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Old 2010-03-03, 14:19   Link #3044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
1. Technically speaking, the word is mirai-jin. You can't remove the fact that the guy is from the future the same way you can remove someone's esper/pseudo-esper powers, and it's made pretty clear that he didn't get dragged along like Kyon did.

2. The fact that you have to assume those three are espers is pretty telling as it is.

3. Miyoko Yoshimura, also known as Miyokichi. There is absolutely no evidence that she is anything other than what she seems.

Seriously, that theory should be dead by now.
1. If he's stripped of his time travel powers somehow, he's a normal person, just like Mikuru is when she's not putting Kyon to sleep or hiding in lockers.

2. They belong to the Agency, right? It's not a very big stretch, especially for Mori, who definitely appears to be more than she seems in Volume 7. Also there's some ambiguity about the "brothers" in that we're explicitly told that they are fellow members of Itsuki's organization and are portraying roles. Tamaru as a last name may be an alias, and they may not even be brothers.

3. There's also little evidence that she actually exists. The only times we've heard of her have been during Kyon's story in Editor in Chief and during Volume 9 when Kyon is trying to recall some memories to Itsuki and quite possibly bullshitting him. We've never actually met Miyokichi. She may not even exist, or her name "may be changed to protect the innocent".

In either case, numbers 2 and 3 could easily just be chalked up to foreshadowing. Number 1 has other options.

The main reason the name theory works is that it is does work in every other case than the three mentioned above, all of which have some ambiguity.

"Powered" characters:
Haruhi Suzumiya
Itsuki Koizumi
Mikuru Asahina
Yuki Nagato
Ryoko Asakura
Emiri Kimidori
Kyoko Tachibana
Kuyoh Suou

Non-"powered" characters:
Kyon
Kyon's sister
Tsuruya-san
Taniguchi
Kunikida
Okabe-sensei
Computer Club President
Arakawa
Nakagawa (depowered)
Student Council President
Sakanaka
Sasaki (depowered, supposedly)

Unless I've missed any, that's every other "named" character in the series (leaving off "Megane-kun" and the presumed "Slider-tan" as they are unnamed by anyone but the fans), and they all follow the rules.
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Old 2010-03-03, 17:10   Link #3045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Non-"powered" characters:

Sakanaka
Doesn't Sakanaka have a first name, though?
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Old 2010-03-03, 17:20   Link #3046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth View Post
Doesn't Sakanaka have a first name, though?
Not in the novels, no.
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Old 2010-03-04, 02:13   Link #3047
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Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth View Post
Doesn't Sakanaka have a first name, though?
Movie/Anime canon =/= real (novel) canon
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Old 2010-03-04, 02:18   Link #3048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Movie/Anime canon =/= real (novel) canon
In the case of Haruhi, I question this.

The Movie/Anime canon is almost identical to the novel canon.

KyoAni is rightly famous for its very faithful adaptations.

So much so that I don't see a problem with viewing the anime/movie canon as almost equivalent to the novel canon, really. Go with the novel in the precious few instances where the two conflict, but if the anime introduces something that the novel didn't (but which is compatible with novel canon), then I don't see a problem with considering that anime element part of real canon, unless a future novel contradicts it. And Sakanaka (and others) having two names would be one such element.


Heck, one Haruhi anime episode was even wrote by Tanigawa directly.


Honestly, quigon, I think that you're a bit too attached to your two name vs. one name idea. I really do think that the Movie has blown that out of the water. I can't imagine Tanigawa greenlighting the use of two names for these characters if he viewed "two names" as a key point of distinction, as it is in your theory. I also don't think that KyoAni would make a significant change with out first throwing it by Tanigawa, but I could be wrong there.
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Old 2010-03-04, 03:30   Link #3049
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In the case of Haruhi, I question this.

The Movie/Anime canon is almost identical to the novel canon.

KyoAni is rightly famous for its very faithful adaptations.

So much so that I don't see a problem with viewing the anime/movie canon as almost equivalent to the novel canon, really. Go with the novel in the precious few instances where the two conflict, but if the anime introduces something that the novel didn't (but which is compatible with novel canon), then I don't see a problem with considering that anime element part of real canon, unless a future novel contradicts it. And Sakanaka (and others) having two names would be one such element.


Heck, one Haruhi anime episode was even wrote by Tanigawa directly.


Honestly, quigon, I think that you're a bit too attached to your two name vs. one name idea. I really do think that the Movie has blown that out of the water. I can't imagine Tanigawa greenlighting the use of two names for these characters if he viewed "two names" as a key point of distinction, as it is in your theory. I also don't think that KyoAni would make a significant change with out first throwing it by Tanigawa, but I could be wrong there.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other regarding the name theory, but I don't agree with saying that if the animated canon doesn't conflict then it counts for novel canon.

It doesn't contradict novel canon, but it isn't novel canon. It's only a highly rated secondary canon until it is confirmed or denied by the novels, no matter if Tanigawa may have given the list an okay. Until she's given a name, he hasn't named her, and we don't have any reason to believe that he created the list for KyoAni.

But maybe I'm weird in that I don't like to mix original and adaptation canons at all unless it's explicitly stated by the creator that they're meant to be combined.
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Old 2010-03-04, 03:39   Link #3050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keri View Post
I don't have an opinion one way or the other regarding the name theory, but I don't agree with saying that if the animated canon doesn't conflict then it counts for novel canon.
I don't see why it shouldn't.

At least not in the case of Haruhi, where the anime is designed to very closely mirror the novel.


Quote:

It doesn't contradict novel canon, but it isn't novel canon.
I see what you're saying, but quigon raised the concept of real canon.

I don't get the sense that KyoAni is aiming for the Haruhi anime to be a less-than-real secondary canon (some animes do, of course, such as Shakugan no Shana).

I think that KyoAni's take on Haruhi is meant to, in some instances, add to the real canon of the basic Haruhi story. To flesh it out a bit, as it were.

Take E8 for example. One could argue that this fleshes out, to a great degree, what happened in some of the time loops that weren't shown.


The novels do have some gaps in them, and I do think that the anime can fill those gaps (as long as it doesn't simultaneously contradict the novels, of course).


Just my opinion.
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Old 2010-03-04, 03:40   Link #3051
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Take E8 for example. One could argue that this fleshes out, to a great degree, what happened in some of the time loops that weren't shown.
You mean "absolutely nothing of note"?

Anyway, I don't agree with you in the least. The anime is the anime and the novel is the novel, no matter how similar they are.
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Old 2010-03-04, 03:49   Link #3052
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You mean "absolutely nothing of note"?
No, I don't mean that, Kaisos.

Thanks to Nagato's exposition during E8 (in the anime), we have a pretty good idea of what the SOS Brigade did from one time loop to the next. And, we also have a pretty good idea of how Kyon, Koizumi, Mikuru, and Nagato tended to address the time loop problem until the very last loop.

That's not insignificant. It does reflect on their characterization.


Quote:
Anyway, I don't agree with you in the least. The anime is the anime and the novel is the novel, no matter how similar they are.

So, Kaisos... what is "Someday in the Rain" to you?

Real canon? Novel canon? Anime canon?


The very existence of "Someday in the Rain", as an anime original episode done by the writer of the Haruhi novels, really blurs the line for the distinction that you're tying to make here.
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Old 2010-03-04, 04:38   Link #3053
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To be quite honest, I've argued for both sides of this canon debate on a number of things, and in the end, it's pointless either way you look at it. The simple fact is this: While it's true that there's no proof Tanigawa had anything to do with these particular decisions, there's also no proof he didn't. Like Triple_R said, the anime has been mostly faithful to the novels, so I'd think it's safe to assume they would at least run things by Tanigawa before actually doing it, especially when dealing with a character that actually has some relevance later on.
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Old 2010-03-04, 06:56   Link #3054
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Waitaminute you do mean the 9th novel right?

There has been intense speculation about our slider girl. Most people agree that she will probably appear in the upcoming novel, but argue on her identity. UG (as you put it) is probably the biggest and most probable candidate right now, but perhaps there are some monkey wrenches that will be thrown into the mix (Sakanaka? Or even more astonishingly, the slider is actually a male, making all discussions on slider-girl obsolete?!).

I have my doubts on the slider showing up though. People make the basis that a slider will appear because of Haruhi's introductory speech. However, later, at the formation of the SOS Brigade and their goal, sliders are mysteriously left out. What exactly happened? Did Haruhi give up on sliders suddenly? Did Haruhi unconsciously know who she'll be able to find for the SOS Brigade? And in the Anti-SOS Brigade, created specifically to serve as a mirror to the SOS Brigade, there are no sliders whatsoever. In fact, to balance things out, Tanigawa would have to create two sliders, one for each group. This is why I have my reservations about the introduction and arrival of sliders in the novels.
The isekai-jin has been in the SOS-dan since the beginning... it's you, the reader.
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Old 2010-03-04, 14:12   Link #3055
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Thanks to Nagato's exposition during E8 (in the anime), we have a pretty good idea of what the SOS Brigade did from one time loop to the next. And, we also have a pretty good idea of how Kyon, Koizumi, Mikuru, and Nagato tended to address the time loop problem until the very last loop.
You mean stuff that we were originally told in the novels anyway?

You've never actually read E8, have you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The very existence of "Someday in the Rain", as an anime original episode done by the writer of the Haruhi novels, really blurs the line for the distinction that you're tying to make here.
Tanigawa wrote it, and it's been published in the Sneaker, so it's both anime and novel canon.

This differs from, say, Lone Island and Live Alive, which in the anime are rather different from how the novel plays out.

I do not see the point in trying to combine the two canons. You have to understand the differences between various forms of media.

Quote:
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The isekai-jin has been in the SOS-dan since the beginning... it's you, the reader.
That's incredibly stupid.
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Old 2010-03-04, 15:38   Link #3056
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
To be quite honest, I've argued for both sides of this canon debate on a number of things, and in the end, it's pointless either way you look at it. The simple fact is this: While it's true that there's no proof Tanigawa had anything to do with these particular decisions, there's also no proof he didn't. Like Triple_R said, the anime has been mostly faithful to the novels, so I'd think it's safe to assume they would at least run things by Tanigawa before actually doing it, especially when dealing with a character that actually has some relevance later on.
The only reason that Sakanaka has a first name in the movie (along with several other classmates) is that it is listed on the class roster, which Kyon looked at. In the novel, obviously, the entire roster does not have to be listed, but in the movie, it has to be shown in order to play to the visual medium (you can't just have Kyon "saying" Haruhi's not on there). Of note is the fact that neither Kunikida or Taniguchi appear on the roster, although odds are one of them should have.

And Tanigawa can't have last word on everything from the movie. No movies work like that regarding their original authors, especially animated movies where lots of time you have individual animators throwing in little Easter Eggs and such that are not even part of the original storyboarding, much less the source material those storyboards are based off of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Go with the novel in the precious few instances where the two conflict, but...
That there are anything more than the most superficial of differences means that they don't share canon. (and it's a more than a "precious few instances", or did you miss Remote Island Syndrome, Live Alive, and Day of Sagittarius?).
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Old 2010-03-04, 16:27   Link #3057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edkedkedk View Post
Waitaminute you do mean the 9th novel right?

There has been intense speculation about our slider girl. Most people agree that she will probably appear in the upcoming novel, but argue on her identity. UG (as you put it) is probably the biggest and most probable candidate right now, but perhaps there are some monkey wrenches that will be thrown into the mix (Sakanaka? Or even more astonishingly, the slider is actually a male, making all discussions on slider-girl obsolete?!).

I have my doubts on the slider showing up though. People make the basis that a slider will appear because of Haruhi's introductory speech. However, later, at the formation of the SOS Brigade and their goal, sliders are mysteriously left out. What exactly happened? Did Haruhi give up on sliders suddenly? Did Haruhi unconsciously know who she'll be able to find for the SOS Brigade? And in the Anti-SOS Brigade, created specifically to serve as a mirror to the SOS Brigade, there are no sliders whatsoever. In fact, to balance things out, Tanigawa would have to create two sliders, one for each group. This is why I have my reservations about the introduction and arrival of sliders in the novels.
Nah it's more of because:
Spoiler for anyone who gets along with Haruhi is unique or one of the 4 she mentioned (alien time traveler esper. and slider?):


(more like the new member who seems interested...)
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Old 2010-03-04, 20:27   Link #3058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Nah it's more of because:
Spoiler for anyone who gets along with Haruhi is unique or one of the 4 she mentioned (alien time traveler esper. and slider?):


(more like the new member who seems interested...)
Or maybe she's just there to throw the readers off?
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Old 2010-03-05, 00:01   Link #3059
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Or maybe she's just there to throw the readers off?
Entirely possible. But it's inarguable that someone called Kyon to start the α timeline (breaking it off of the β timeline in which Sasaki called Kyon instead), fueling supposition that she's a slider. Whether the enthusiastic freshman is the same person is in question, but there is the Law of Conservation of Detail to consider.

And that paragraph also nicely illustrates how the theory that Slider-tan is an alt!Imouto is so popular. Tell me that wouldn't make that entire paragraph a CMoA on second readthrough? ^_^
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Old 2010-03-05, 00:12   Link #3060
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And that paragraph also nicely illustrates how the theory that Slider-tan is an alt!Imouto is so popular.
Why would she call her brother "senpai"?
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