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Old 2010-03-05, 21:45   Link #1
Triple_R
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Should the Rep System be changed?

A particular thread on the General Anime board has left me wondering if the Negative Rep aspect of the Rep system is worth it or not.

Here is the thread in particular.

In particular, here are four posts that I think speak to how the neg rep aspect of the rep system is perhaps being overly abused.

As I wrote in one of those links, I once saw the neg rep aspect of the rep system as providing a good barrier against genuinely trollish or abusively flaming posting.

However, I'm starting to think that neg reps are now used primarily over a simple and civil difference of opinion.

If so, is the neg rep aspect of the rep system worth it? Should we scrap it?

Just something I want to throw out there for the Moderating staff, and other fellow posters here, to consider.
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:06   Link #2
Arbitres
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On a politically correct level, it helps us state our opinions on the matter.

However, differing opinions happen and can be abused with a system that anonymously states. Or it could be abused in general.

Neg rep is a good feature to have, but 'overly fond' of it because someone stated an opinion is absurd. It should only be used to prevent trollish behavior or constant flames. As Triple R has noted.

Negative reputation should be by the individuals shortcomings, as they would be flamers or trolls. However, that isn't the case. Most people that are negative repped are simply stating an opinion of theirs, or the reality of the situation.

A good system to have, that is easily abused. I say keep the positive rep, remove the negative. If there are trolls or flames, then we can simply use the report button. It isn't that difficult, in my opinion.
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:08   Link #3
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Just something I want to throw out there for the Moderating staff, and other fellow posters here, to consider.
This has been discussed many times in the past and the issue in every case is almost always people not liking/and or agreeing with the neg-reps they get.

Or as someone in this forum once said to me....

Just because we don't like it doesn't mean we didn't deserve it.

I am all for reporting people abusing the system, but that's something that needs to be handled on a case by case scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbitres
Neg rep is a good feature to have, but 'overly fond' of it because someone stated an opinion is absurd. It should only be used to prevent trollish behavior or constant flames. As Triple R has noted.
This can mean many different things to many different people around here.
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:11   Link #4
LynnieS
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It depends on what is the real purpose of the rep system w.r.t. the forums, IMHO. I see it as being purely for fun rather than for any real and serious purpose.

To be honest and unless I "know" the person well enough from his other posts, I consider someone with 0 rep to be "better" than someone with lots of + reps. No offense to the 2nd person, but there is no control - outside of limiting the number of times someone can give + reps to a particular person - on why a + rep was given out. Trivial reasons for giving out a + or - rep are treated the same as something like "donating time to write scripts for the forums" or "volunteering to advise new joiners", and you can't distinguish between the two.

What I don't like about the rep system is how easy it can be abused. Ranging from "- rep'ing someone for having a different idea than you" to "having a lot of friends + rep'ing each other".

The 2nd is of no matter, but the 1st can turn into a case of on-line bullying, which in Japan and elsewhere, is a serious matter. Kids have killed themselves over this. I don't think that this has happened here, but I'm now wondering if this is a possible source of liability/risk for GHD and the other mods?
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:14   Link #5
felix
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@ Triple_R

You have not searched before posting this right?

This "issue" has been discussed before (again and again). There have been somewhat different directions to the topic(s) but this particular point was brouth up as I recall. The (implied) answer is the rep system will stay as-is. If it has or not a practical purpose who knows (or actually cares?) the rules is: if you disagree with how it works disable it (via your User Control Panel). Please realize the reputation system is a subjective system, you can not apply logic or any objective purpose to it. Is it important? systems like this are rarely important but as individuals we associate them a high priority (eg. "this is a post, there are millions like it but this one is mine!" ).

In any case this topic will likely get locked soon or after a few pages when the moaning and crying start (ie. "I also got... (examples)" which translate to "give me positive rep please, because I got de-reped"). This is the main reason why every other discussion regarding reputation has been closed (and discussing reputation is forbidden).
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:26   Link #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
This has been discussed many times in the past and the issue in every case is almost always people not liking/and or agreeing with the neg-reps they get.
Ok... they why not get rid of the neg-rep aspect of the rep system?

What is the reason for keeping it as is?


Quote:

Or as someone in this forum once said to me....

Just because we don't like it doesn't mean we didn't deserve it.
Just because somebody else felt it was warranted, doesn't mean that it was.


Quote:

I am all for reporting people abusing the system, but that's something that needs to be handled on a case by case scenario.
How can you report people who abuse the system, when neg reps are given anonymously?

Edit: A moderator answered this for me, and I thank that moderator for that informative answer.

Basically, moderators see the poster who gives negative rep in each such situation.


Quote:
This can mean many different things to many different people around here.
Most people, I would argue, have a pretty good idea of what trollish or flaming posting is.

It's certainly not simply voicing disagreeable opinions in a respectful way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
@ Triple_R

You have not searched before posting this right?
Just because an issue was discussed before doesn't mean it should never be discussed again.


Quote:

This "issue" has been discussed before (again and again). There have been somewhat different directions to the topic(s) but this particular point was brouth up as I recall. The (implied) answer is the rep system will stay as-is.
Why? What's the argument for keeping it as is?


Quote:
If it has or not a practical purpose who knows (or actually cares?) the rules is: if you disagree with how it works disable it (via your User Control Panel).
I disagree with this argument.

I do see the practical use of the positive rep side of the rep system. It can reward excellent and thoughtful posters who regularly make superb contributions to the AS community, and perhaps deserve recognition for that.

Vexx, I hope he won't mind me mentioning him, is a great example of this.


Quote:
Please realize the reputation system is a subjective system, you can not apply logic or any objective purpose to it.
Again, I respectfully disagree.

I see a logical value to the positive rep side of the rep system. I'm much more skeptical of the negative rep side of the rep system.


Quote:
Is it important? systems like this are rarely important but as individuals we associate them a high priority (eg. "this is a post, there are millions like it but this one is mine!" ).

In any case this topic will likely get locked soon or after a few pages when the moaning and crying start (ie. "I also got... (examples)" which translate to "give me positive rep please, because I got de-reped"). This is the main reason why every other discussion regarding reputation has been closed (and discussing reputation is forbidden).
If neg reps are causing this much "moaning and crying" for some posters on Anime Suki, then what's the point in keeping them?
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2010-03-05 at 22:47. Reason: One issue addressed well.
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:45   Link #7
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Ok... they why not get rid of the neg-rep aspect of the rep system?
What is the reason for keeping it as is?
Because the same applies for both, positive and negative rep. As a matter of fact, it is the positive rep the one people tend to abuse the most.

Quote:
Just because somebody else felt it was warranted, doesn't mean that it was.
Thus we report it and see how the issue is handled.

Quote:
If neg reps are causing this much "moaning and crying" for some posters on Anime Suki, then what's the point in keeping them?
I would much rather prefer to have the whole system removed rather that slicing it in half.
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:52   Link #8
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I think a better solution is just remove both the positive and negative aspect of the system and just leave it to give feedback or comments on that post. This way, no one ever have to complain about being de-reped or any abuse. However, it does take away the most important aspect of the system though...

I do receive trollish neg-reps once in the blue moon, but I never really complained about it, although it does need a way to report these types of reps that deal with abuse. Perhaps showing who made these reps or a button to report them? but probably it's not possible.
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:57   Link #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Just because an issue was discussed before doesn't mean it should never be discussed again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What is the argument for keeping it as is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I do see the practical use of the positive rep side of the rep system. It can reward excellent and thoughtful posters who regularly make superb contributions to the AS community, and perhaps deserve recognition for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Again, I respectfully disagree.

I see a logical value to the positive rep side of the rep system. I'm much more skeptical of the negative rep side of the rep system.
  1. The rules say "don't discuss it" and we were told (repeatedly) not to discuss it.
  2. We were never given a reason.
  3. Please realize what you are looking are just a series of average images not a replacement for a person, personality or whatever other personification you are doing.
  4. If you think subjectively like that about it, by all means...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnieS View Post
What I don't like about the rep system is how easy it can be abused. Ranging from "- rep'ing someone for having a different idea than you" to "having a lot of friends + rep'ing each other".

The 2nd is of no matter, but the 1st can turn into a case of on-line bullying, which in Japan and elsewhere, is a serious matter. Kids have killed themselves over this. I don't think that this has happened here, but I'm now wondering if this is a possible source of liability/risk for GHD and the other mods?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If neg reps are causing this much "moaning and crying" for some posters on Anime Suki, then what's the point in keeping them?
Here at animesuki you can go into any discussion thread, completly ignore the conversation aspect of being in a forum and just start babling how the show is crap, imply the people watching it are retards, weird or just not into this "cool kids" category "you" have and do whatever other kind of trolling (or some call it "flaimbaiting) you wish. This is considered "expressing your opinion" and you may express your opinion every day of every week. If anyone even tries to defend against your annoying monolog, that someone will get banned because "you" were only "expressing your opinion" (however subjective oxymoronic it may have been). Thing is "you" speaking in general about fans of the anime is never really attacking anyone in the thread with your statements, but if someone in the thread speaking in general about haters of the anime will always be considered to be attacking you. Yes its a double-standard of the forum, learn it and avoid it.

I know I am biased about it, but go read what you said (see quotes) and you'll realize you are also just as biased to one side as I am. Of course like me, you never see the other side's version (ever!) so as far as each of us are concerned there is only "our own truth" and everyone has to bend to it in every situtation.
Since every situation will always be faithful to our side. /sarcasm
Do you understand now what I meant earlier by "subjective"?

ps. Lynnie. Are not people more likely to commit suicide (or whatever it was you were implying) when you take away systems to let them cool-off (such as negative reputation, blocklists etc). I mean don't people suicide over petty thoughts like: "the world is unfair and nobody agrees with me"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
I would much rather prefer to have the whole system removed rather that slicing it in half.
/signed (thought really we all know we asked this before, and it won't happen)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
I do receive trollish neg-reps once in the blue moon, but I never really complained about it, although it does need a way to report these types of reps that deal with abuse. Perhaps showing who made these reps or a button to report them? but probably it's not possible.
There is a system. You go and report to a administrator and they will look into it.

Adding a identity to the reputation is possible (quite easily) but it just gives people the ability to go spam/flame/troll the person in question (nothing more). Are you thinking people use the reputation system because its anonymous? On the extremely rare occasion I send a negative rep (I prefer to blocklist people, its so much more convenient) I'm sending it not because I do not want to send it via Visitor Message or Private Message; its because I'm not allowed to. Sending anything that's even tangibly resembling criticism can and will be considered attacking/spam etc and you will get banned over it. =P
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Last edited by felix; 2010-03-05 at 23:12.
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Old 2010-03-05, 23:14   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
[*]If you think subjectively like that about it, by all means...[/list]
Why is it subjective?

Where's the lack of objectivity in my argument that positive rep can, and does, reward excellent and thoughtful posters who make great contributions to the AS community?

Well... the poster example I gave is obviously a subjective opinion on my part, but the basic argument isn't really something that's subjective. I think that it's objectively true that the positive rep system rewards excellent and thoughtful posters for making good contributions to the Anime Suki community. Now, the positive rep system may also be abused in some ways, but it does serve a reward function, I think.


Quote:
Here at animesuki you can go into any discussion thread, completly ignore the conversation aspect of being in a forum and just start babling how the show is crap, imply the people watching it are retards, weird or just not into this "cool kids" category "you" have and do whatever other kind of trolling (or some call it "flaimbaiting) you wish. This is considered "expressing your opinion" and you may express your opinion every day of every week. If anyone even tries to defend against your annoying monolog, that someone will get banned because "you" were only "expressing your opinion" (however subjective oxymoronic it may have been). Thing is "you" speaking in general about fans of the anime is never really attacking anyone in the thread with your statements, but if someone in the thread speaking in general about haters of the anime will always be considered to be attacking you. Yes its a double-standard of the forum, learn it and avoid it.
I don't think that this double-standard really exists.

I've seen people get in trouble for this sort of "flamebaiting" just as much as people get in trouble for fighting against it.


Quote:

I know I am biased about it, but go read what you said (see quotes) and you'll realize you are also just as biased to one side as I am. Of course like me, you never see the other side's version (ever!) ...
Not true sir.

I do see where you're coming from, and your version of the issue here.

I do see how the negative rep aspect of the rep system can serve to combat what you legitimately call "flamebaiting".

My question is if this genuine pro is worth the cons of the neg rep system also being abused. Basically, I think it might be good to run a sort of cost-benefit analysis of how the negative rep aspect of the rep system currently functions on Anime Suki.
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Old 2010-03-05, 23:46   Link #11
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The mods are pretty good about killing the trolls before they get too hairy and warty.

The rep system shouldn't be taken too seriously. I get good rep from people, that's nice. I get bad rep from people when I said something offensive (too fucking bad, I don't walk on eggshells for anyone) and occasionally I just get inexplicable bad rep that I don't understand.

None of it's really that big a deal.
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Old 2010-03-05, 23:47   Link #12
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Why is it subjective?
Because your reason for it of based on a subjective quantification, ie. (I quote) "excellence" factor, logically speaking your entire argument entirely subjective. You know the saying "one man's junk is another man's treasure", I know it doesn't sound like it but if you reverse the order the meaning stays the same objectively speaking, but changes completely subjectively: "one mans treasure is another man's junk". And no, this is not a analogy I just took what you said out of context (more or less). To spell it out for you: "Great feats of stupidity deserve a award", logically speaking (which is what being objective typically means) both sentences (the one in quotes just now and yours) have the same meaning/semantics, but subjectively they are not necessarily equal (some may even see them as opposites).

Also, if the question is actually "how are you subjective" in that post. From my point of view its partly because you are "emotionally involved". And then there is the, system just says "black" or "white" and you are leaning towards the "white" because it obviously favors you. Do you understand now why discussions on reputation are silly? To be objective about it you have to be a) indifferent to the system b) not effected by it (so ego won't get in the way). As far as I see both conditions are too hard to meet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
My question is if this genuine pro is worth the cons of the neg rep system also being abused.
As I said earlier, if its being abused report it to a administrator via VM or PM (not a thread).

Also concerning this "abuse". I could de-rep you for say running people in circles and using big words (like "abuse") with out clarifying what it is in the world you are referring to, as well as for other issues like pretending to not understand just to (a) keep the topic alive and bumped and (b) somehow turn this non-issue into a issue via excessive noise. In a case like that you might consider it "abuse", because it doesn't fit into what you would do. However, I am not doing anything more the expressing criticism over the contents of your post and subtracting reputation from you for wasting my (and depending on situation, other peoples) time, which is really inline with "awarding excellence" you were speaking of.
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Old 2010-03-06, 00:12   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
ps. Lynnie. Are not people more likely to commit suicide (or whatever it was you were implying) when you take away systems to let them cool-off (such as negative reputation, blocklists etc). I mean don't people suicide over petty thoughts like: "the world is unfair and nobody agrees with me"?
Unfortunately, I don't know of a single reason why someone is driven to commit suicide. I also do not know if the rep system can cause it to happen. On-line bullying, esp. by those who can hide their identities freely, can be and is a concern. Not everyone is mature enough to accept criticism with a clear head; not everyone is mature enough to hold off on criticizing someone else's thoughts and opinions beyond what is normally accepted in polite society. Given the age distribution of the forums' members, someone who is in his teens is probably less likely to hold off on responding than someone is his 30's/40's. In terms of liability esp. with popular meeting sites, less risk = better usually.

The rep system is basically and IMHO a toy. I don't take it seriously at all, and all those green marks below someone's avatar, while pretty, are meaningless. OTOH, not everyone thinks the same, and the only person who sees a - rep is the guy who receives it.

If he ignores it, big whoop; it contributes absolutely nothing to the forums.

If he does not ignore it, someone (if he puts down his ID) might get flamed privately, a rather pointless (IMHO) thread gets opened to air the complaint, or it gets reported to the mods. Again, it doesn't contribute much except wasted time and bandwidth. A mod might be able to track down the "drive-by rep'er" and warn/ban him if his statement goes overboard, but the "harm", if you can call it that, is done.

If the rep system is removed, then the criticism is then done either in the thread or via PM/personal board. You attach an ID to the criticism, make it more visible, and force people to take responsibility on his actions.

But that's just my opinion. If the mods want to keep the system, it's their decision. My rep status is "opt'ed out" for ages, and I rarely rep people also (fewer than 10 so far, I think...).
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Old 2010-03-06, 00:52   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Because your reason for it of based on a subjective quantification, ie. (I quote) "excellence" factor,
Oh come now.

Pretty much everybody has the same general idea of what "excellence" means.

You're trying to muddle something that is quite clear.


Quote:
logically speaking your entire argument entirely subjective.
No, it's not.

Logically speaking, my argument is objective, because it uses words with clear objective meanings (like the word "excellence").

Yes, people may disagree on just what is good enough to be called excellence, but we all have a general idea of what excellence is.

Quote:

Also, if the question is actually "how are you subjective" in that post. From my point of view its partly because you are "emotionally involved".
A person can desire objectivity for emotional reasons. He or she may take emotional comfort in objective arguments.

Some degree of emotionality does not necessarily preclude objectivity.


Quote:
Also concerning this "abuse". I could de-rep you for say running people in circles and using big words (like "abuse") with out clarifying what it is in the world you are referring to,
How am I "running people in circles"? I have forced nobody to read this thread.

And I have clarified what I am referring to by "abuse of the neg rep system". I have clearly stated that I view such abuse as using the neg rep system to punish people for simply holding a honest difference of opinion, when that different of opinion is presented in a civil or respectful way.


Quote:
as well as for other issues like pretending
I have pretended nothing at all on this thread, sir.

Quote:
(a) keep the topic alive and bumped
You're doing that as much as I am.


Quote:
(b) somehow turn this non-issue into a issue via excessive noise.
Just because something may be a non-issue to you doesn't mean it is to everyone, sir. If this was a non-issue for everybody, there's no way that this thread would have grown to this extent in a fairly short period of time.

Heck, it's clearly not a non-issue to you either, or you wouldn't keep replying to the thread.


Quote:
In a case like that you might consider it "abuse", because it doesn't fit into what you would do. However, I am not doing anything more the expressing criticism over the contents of your post and subtracting reputation from you for wasting my (and depending on situation, other peoples) time,
Again, nobody is forcing you to read this thread, sir. And this thread has been very much on-topic, so it's not like you didn't know what you were getting into when you started reading this thread. Nobody is "wasting your time", except you yourself if you so choose to do so.
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Old 2010-03-06, 01:20   Link #15
Marcus H.
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Not to immerse myself in the commotion above, but I don't think there will be any effect even if the reputation system will be axed. Remember, there will be troll posts (just look at the Bleach Manga Discussion Thread, though directed to Kubo Tite) and troll posts and troll neg-reps are two entirely different ways for people to troll and flame. Reputation, though, has a far less impact than posts since it can be disabled.

So far, trolls are almost nonexistent here, so kudos to the mods.
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Old 2010-03-06, 01:30   Link #16
Vexx
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Triple R, You realize you're arguing with someone (felix) who has their rep "turned off". So they've already made their decision and is basically wasting your time for grins as far as I can see

There is a system for unjustified negrep (report to a mod, they will remove egregious nonsense). But really... I've gotten a pile of negrep, usually inexplicable or just feeling the need to stalk me or what seems to be a fear of actually debating me. I've reported maybe 2 or 3 - I think maybe 1 got retracted.
Sometimes I'm just as perplexed by why a post got posrep...

I appreciate a negrep when it actually communicates a problem, though that happens less often than liked.

(shrug) personally, I have a list of people I like to debate, talk with, or listen to. I tend to focus on them.

The report tool is a wonderful thing....
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Old 2010-03-06, 01:31   Link #17
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I consider a neg rep to be similar to the red mark that a teacher (or colleague) gives to you if the arguments you make (or their presentation of said argument) are "akimbo" if not outright ludicrous. Just as a test can be marked down, so too can a post. True, you could simply disassemble an argument in a post in the thread, but sometimes particularly silly or vicious arguments deserve a harsh mark, hence the use of a neg rep.

A neg rep shouldn't be used for silly or childish reasons (like simply disliking what another has said), rather they should be informative and, dare I say, helpful (even if sarcastic and a little mean-spirited at times ).

That being said, while the majority of the neg reps I have received have been purposeful and for, what I consider to be, legitimate reasons, but I still get the occasional nonsensical neg rep that serves no real purpose other than to boast the, often times anonymous, poster's ego. If the mods were to simply add a feature where the poster's name always appears (no matter if they give positive or negative points), then the majority of the frivolous neg reps would probably disappear completely (I assume that those anonymous individuals that incorrectly use the neg rep function would also be the posters that most fear being neg repped in return if their anonymity were taken away).
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Old 2010-03-06, 01:54   Link #18
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Triple R, You realize you're arguing with someone (felix) who has their rep "turned off". So they've already made their decision and is basically wasting your time for grins as far as I can see
Don't feel like playing any game right now and there's only so many things one can do this early in the morning to waste some time.

Triple_R, telling me you are right doesn't make you right, especially when you keep on avoiding proving to me this forum doesn't have a entire section of the Rules answering everything you asked. And don't give me the "nobody is forcing you" line since its not like there's any particular reason to post on the entire forum at all. As this thread shows, you are tacking everything way too seriously.
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Old 2010-03-06, 04:20   Link #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Triple R, You realize you're arguing with someone (felix) who has their rep "turned off". So they've already made their decision and is basically wasting your time for grins as far as I can see

There is a system for unjustified negrep (report to a mod, they will remove egregious nonsense). But really... I've gotten a pile of negrep, usually inexplicable or just feeling the need to stalk me or what seems to be a fear of actually debating me. I've reported maybe 2 or 3 - I think maybe 1 got retracted.
Sometimes I'm just as perplexed by why a post got posrep...

I appreciate a negrep when it actually communicates a problem, though that happens less often than liked.

(shrug) personally, I have a list of people I like to debate, talk with, or listen to. I tend to focus on them.

The report tool is a wonderful thing....
Just wondering, where would the report tool be for this?

As for the issue itself, since rep is mostly a toy I don't really see an urge to change it. I think my post that was linked in the beginning summarizes anything I have to say. But I guess it could be bad for new users. I remember some spammer was annoying the crap out of me before I realized PM's have report buttons too.
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Old 2010-03-06, 04:38   Link #20
Dr. Casey
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 27
I wish the Reputation system wasn't anonymous, there are people that have given me Positive and Negative reputation alike and I wish I knew who the hell they were. People need to sign their reps more often.
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