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Old 2010-02-19, 22:51   Link #41
mammothb
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^
agreed, i started this manga wanting to see how the handphone novel can start a romance, but it turned out to be too predictable:/
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:41   Link #42
Sol Falling
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I don't think new love-interest girl will necessarily get anywhere with Shigure. Just like Akira may not get anywhere with Yukina. They'll be there to provide some obstacles/drama, but the idea of Yukina dating Akira out of 'revenge' seems really farfetched imo.

I'm kinda interested as to what kind of person the new girl actually is. Presumably she knows Shigure's 'nice guy' front isn't his real personality, but therein lies the question: what kind of girl is interested in the self-centered narcissist behind that? And what kind of girl would a self-centered narcissist be interested in anyway? I actually think she looked like a pretty nice girl based on her picture from an earlier chapter, but if she turns out to be some super-oblivious type who is chasing Shigure aggressively but doesn't realize that he's putting on an act then I'm gonna facepalm.

Anyway, on the earlier Akira vs. Shigure discussion. I can understand why people say they dislike Kitami, even though (as I pointed out earlier in this thread) he's not supposed to represent a likeable/attractive personality, but denying that Yukina likes him is just beyond me. If you're wondering what '2%' means, then you already know that it isn't a line to take at face value, and indeed it's main purpose is obviously a return jab at Shigure's (obviously tsundere/posturing) '1%' line to show that even if Yukina likes him, she's in control (or rather, detached) enough that he's not gonna walk all over her. However, the 'I like you' is unequivocal, and Yukina has already explicitly denied getting that sort of feeling from Akira.

Speaking of Akira--frankly, it's hopeless. Yukina doesn't see him as a man, and long-winded confessions with lines like 'it hurts when you can't eat your favourite dinner' and 'I thought always being by your side was natural' don't help him. Hell, look at his flashbacks with her: as kids, she had to comfort him over a dropped ice cream. This is pretty fundamental stuff for a shoujo manga--I can't take that scathing portrayal of the reality of their relationship as anything but an explicit denial of any chances Akira ever had with her (take a look at the repeated scene, with Akira excited to see her while Yukina's expression is as indifferent as ever--as the years went by, that situation--that fundamental difference in interest--must have become a conditioned response). Akira is too close, but it's not even only that; as the perennial 'follower' in their relationship, from Yukina's perspective, his feelings come cheap.

Compare: Yukina gets all doki doki when Shigure just calls her cute, while she feels 'perplexed' from Akira's love confession. Saying that Yukina would get just as excited if she put Akira in the situations she put Kitami in is missing the fundamental difference in the nature of their relationships.

To go back to Yukina and Shigure. Remember the end of chapter 9? "If I say I don't like Shigure, then I'll feel sad..." And Shigure's response: "When I see your troubled face, I feel sad too". The most attractive thing about Yukina is somehow the innocence of the way she shows her feelings. This exchange especially, the understated meaning is just tremendous. An idea I've had to get used to with this manga is the fact that Yukina is tough emotionally. It might be more accurate to call it detached--regardless, however, the point is that Kitami throws some terrifyingly hurtful words at her, and Yukina takes it not with any self-aware sense of shame or revenge, but rather with an understated sense of innocent disappointment. What this openness with her feelings is able to do for Kitami then is to reveal his (very) deeply buried capacity for empathy and compassion. Shigure is usually all about himself--all about the fake image he is able to give people, and the petty self-satisfaction he can find from that. However, from seeing Yukina's innocent disappointment on her face, Shigure universally realizes he's done that and learns the feeling that he's been an ass. What then follows are the first instances of Shigure genuinely caring for and being interested in someone other than himself. "When I see your troubled face, I feel sad too." If you think about it, Yukina is the only type of girl who could do that to him. And in fact, correspondingly, it is this very empathy and interest from Shigure that makes Yukina begin to like him in the first place. It's like a feedback loop--what Yukina causes in Shigure, is what Yukina likes about him.

So back to Shigure. While I will freely admit that his personality is nothing likeable, you have to aknowledge, his 'compatibility' with Yukina is very romantic. The way the story has been set up, it is almost like Shigure falling for Yukina is equated with Shigure becoming a good and more genuine person despite himself, which is just a feel good kind of idea all around. So I don't really get what's with people complaining about the male protagonists in this story. I realize that having the main guy not only be a petty jerk, but also have no idea he likes the girl in the first place might be pretty unusual for a shoujo manga but I don't think it's all that hard to be happy for them and be excited by their developments.

Anyway, as for the Akira hate: while he certainly played the villain in this chapter, as I said at the start of this post, I don't think this manga will deviate from its game plan. The best things about this manga are 1) Yukina's moe, her genuine happiness to be in love with someone and 2) Shigure turning out to be a nicer guy than he expected, and I think the author knows that. So in the end, I'm not really worried about Akira doing what he does because when it comes down to it, just about every chapter has been about the developing relationship between Yukina and Shigure.
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Old 2010-02-20, 05:18   Link #43
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Saying that Yukina would get just as excited if she put Akira in the situations she put Kitami in is missing the fundamental difference in the nature of their relationships.
The final page of chapter 10 does leave me wondering whether Yukina's in love with both or not.
Quote:
I'm kinda interested as to what kind of person the new girl actually is.
If she's Kitami's cousin I'm dropping this I can only see her as an obstacle that Kitami will have to overcome in order to be with Yukina...
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Old 2010-02-20, 16:19   Link #44
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Anyway, on the earlier Akira vs. Shigure discussion. I can understand why people say they dislike Kitami, even though (as I pointed out earlier in this thread) he's not supposed to represent a likeable/attractive personality, but denying that Yukina likes him is just beyond me. If you're wondering what '2%' means, then you already know that it isn't a line to take at face value, and indeed it's main purpose is obviously a return jab at Shigure's (obviously tsundere/posturing) '1%' line to show that even if Yukina likes him, she's in control (or rather, detached) enough that he's not gonna walk all over her. However, the 'I like you' is unequivocal, and Yukina has already explicitly denied getting that sort of feeling from Akira.
My reasoning was more to the point that we have no idea how much she likes him or to what effect. Does she like him as a friend? A person? A lover? What is the depth of her feelings? 2 percent, if it is just a jab that certainly doesn't mean that her feelings are actually deep in anyway. Why does she like him? It can be clearly inferred that most of her feelings come from her wanting to learn about love to write her novel. And the main point being even if she likes him why does that mean that she can't also like Akira or come to like him. Lets not forget she didn't have any feelings otherwise for Kitami until she started exploring "love" with him. I've also seen no unequivocal rejection of Akira feelings. She was perplexed but that's certainly understandable but she was willing to go forward.

Quote:
Compare: Yukina gets all doki doki when Shigure just calls her cute, while she feels 'perplexed' from Akira's love confession. Saying that Yukina would get just as excited if she put Akira in the situations she put Kitami in is missing the fundamental difference in the nature of their relationships.
This is exactly why Akira is out to change the nature of their relationships. Why does it seem such an impossible task to you? Sure, it is a shoujo manga and it has done very little outside the box but that doesn't mean the reader has to throw a real life logic when they consider the situation. Will she probably end up with Akira, like I said, almost certainly. This doesn't mean I have to confine my minds thinking and how I personally relate to the situations to conform to Shoujo stereotypes and tropes.


Quote:
So back to Shigure. While I will freely admit that his personality is nothing likeable, you have to aknowledge, his 'compatibility' with Yukina is very romantic. The way the story has been set up, it is almost like Shigure falling for Yukina is equated with Shigure becoming a good and more genuine person despite himself, which is just a feel good kind of idea all around. So I don't really get what's with people complaining about the male protagonists in this story. I realize that having the main guy not only be a petty jerk, but also have no idea he likes the girl in the first place might be pretty unusual for a shoujo manga but I don't think it's all that hard to be happy for them and be excited by their developments.
I do not in anyway acknowledge any sort of romanticism in their relationship. No way. It hard for me so far to believe that Shigure actually likes Yukina for who she is and not for his own ego. Even the date showed how little he understood her and they don't truly connect in situations where they aren't forcing feelings. We can kind of tell by the nature of the manga she's trying to portray it as you said but that certainly does mean everyone takes that away from the manga. I can make all kinds of girls go doki doki, doesn't mean after I'm all doki doki'd out I'll even remember her name much less think of it as romantic.


Quote:
Anyway, as for the Akira hate: while he certainly played the villain in this chapter, as I said at the start of this post, I don't think this manga will deviate from its game plan. The best things about this manga are 1) Yukina's moe, her genuine happiness to be in love with someone and 2) Shigure turning out to be a nicer guy than he expected, and I think the author knows that. So in the end, I'm not really worried about Akira doing what he does because when it comes down to it, just about every chapter has been about the developing relationship between Yukina and Shigure.
Akira is only the villian if you're routing for Shigure otherwise he's not much different than him in this chapter only more honest about it.

I think the main problem of that manga so far is that even though it had a fairly original idea for the plot it still is pretty standard. The lack of actual tension hurts it. When I first say it I figured it'd be a toned down smut manga and that what it is no more and no less. Vampire Knight probably much better in that regard. More smut, more actual romance, and a interesting plot in addition. This reminds be a bit of a Kimikiss relationship but that too was done better.
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Old 2010-02-20, 20:37   Link #45
Chiibi
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I think it's quite safe to assume Yukina likes Kitami more than a friend. XD

And this manga has PLENTY of tension. This manga has more tension than a bunch of manga I've read lately, in fact. I prefer this WAY over Vampire Knight. Yukina's way more awesome than Yuuki and she's not in love with her more perfect than perfect brother. YUCK.

Anyway I'm very torn about the next chapter. I want March to come faster......but that's also when I have to go back to work and I don't want to go back to work.

And slick rick, I'm not acting like I know it all. I'm applying the knowledge learned from the thousands of other shoujo manga I read to this one, thinking I will get 2+2=4.
Yukina and Kitami both got the first romantic doki-doki scene, therefore they both like each other and they will definitely end up together. If you don't believe me, I don't mind listing all the other titles I've read that use this formula too. Though my fingers will probably get tired. XD
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Old 2010-02-20, 21:50   Link #46
Slick_rick
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And slick rick, I'm not acting like I know it all. I'm applying the knowledge learned from the thousands of other shoujo manga I read to this one, thinking I will get 2+2=4.
Yukina and Kitami both got the first romantic doki-doki scene, therefore they both like each other and they will definitely end up together. If you don't believe me, I don't mind listing all the other titles I've read that use this formula too. Though my fingers will probably get tired. XD
Well, I could also list a couple where this didn't happen and I've not read that many shoujo's. For instance off the top of my head:
Spoiler for mangas:


And even if we consider that there has never, in the existence of shoujo manga, been one where the male who she's first shows feeling too doesn't in the end up with her then how does that mean that it can't ever happen?

Basically you're saying because X always happened in the past then it's impossible for Y to happen in the future. That's bad logic and why I said you were narrow visioned. Everything is too black and white for you and you never consider the possibly of something else happening. 2+2 with always equal 4 but certainly that does not equate to the same thing as this because the past does not give 100 percent accuracy to the future. This is of course excluding the fact that it has probably happened in a number of them in addition to the ones I remember. You might actually be completely right in the end for this manga, this doesn't mean that excluding even the possibility isn't completely silly.
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Old 2010-02-20, 22:50   Link #47
Chiibi
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I never said it was impossible. Nothing's impossible. Just highly improbable.

............and I really wish you'd stop analyzing me. It's annoying. Can't you post your thoughts in this thread without acting like you've got me all figured out?

Notice nobody else is doing it? It's because they know it's uncalled for and people don't like that kind of thing.
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Old 2010-02-21, 00:23   Link #48
Slick_rick
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I never said it was impossible. Nothing's impossible. Just highly improbable.

............and I really wish you'd stop analyzing me. It's annoying. Can't you post your thoughts in this thread without acting like you've got me all figured out?

Notice nobody else is doing it? It's because they know it's uncalled for and people don't like that kind of thing.
Well saying things like "definitely" and an analogy like 2+2=4 certainly gives that impression.

I find analyzing a person as important and interesting as the topic. I often give my opinions on people and pretty much everything. I'll always do so. It's who I am whether others do it or don't or like it or don't is fairly irrelevant to me. I give my honest assessment of things. That's all I can do. I'm not much one for tact as I find honesty much more beneficial to someone else even if that person doesn't want to necessarily hear it. You don't have to agree with me... You won't offend me I have a pretty thick skin.
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Old 2010-02-22, 06:07   Link #49
SonOfHeaven
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Just started reading this manga last week. After reading the last chapter. I liked how Yukina said she didn't want to part ways with Shigure. That was nice coming from her. Seems like both Yukina and Shigure are falling for one another gradually.

I expect Mami to cause Yukina to get upset or jealous like with how Shigure and Akira in regards to Yukina if one them is with her. And develop Shigure's character as well.

About the male leads. Well, neither is really that good to me(Shigure can get better overtime hopefully). Seen too many characters like Akira in the past.
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Old 2010-03-06, 15:14   Link #50
Chiibi
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Lol just read chapter 11 raws.

Upon which I conclude:

*Akira is a whiny little girl
*Mami is an attention-grabbing hoe.
*Therefore they should totally hook up and leave our OTP alone.
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Old 2010-03-17, 22:39   Link #51
frubam
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I lol'd at the size of lil' Akira when he was in front of that truck, it just looks like they made him a bit too small .

It's good that Yukina now understands that Akira likes her more than a cousin. I'm not to pleased with the whole "you save my life so I'll love you" motif, but given he just lost his family, it's understandable how what Yukina did made such a strong impression on him. It was a cute little discussion, esp the part where they wondered if Akira saying "I'll be with you until I die" was a proposal(they were making unsure faces lol). Seeing Akira gleefully letting Yukina get dragged off by Shigure gives me the impression that he'll no longer directly interfere with their relationship, and instead, focus on his and Yukina's relationship moving further. That feels like the more respectable thing to do.

And here, Shigure is STILL a visibly jealous bastard. His childhood friend is back, yet he just can't STAND Yukina thinking about anyone but him, and even says that he'll make it so that Yukina will only see him as a lover. Then right after, he leaves her to run to his childhood friend, without giving Yukina any kind of explanation or apology(though it's not in his character to do so). Then he goes to Mami saying that they should hang out more while they're at school with a sincere smile on his face. To me, his actions make NO sense. I can't even see why he is interested in Yukina, since he really hasn't done anything to indicate the reason why. I'd be different if he was ONLY focused on Yukina, like Akira was, then an explanation wouldn't be necessary(yet they gave Akira one in this chapter), but he goes around saying "I MIGHT like you, like 1% like" and later spiels things like "I'll make you only look at me." I've said it before, but I'll say it again, he is a HYPOCRITE and it's the reason I just don't like him.
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Old 2010-03-18, 01:29   Link #52
Sol Falling
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Shigure's behaviour is indeed perplexing. Although, it doesn't seem like he has any sort of romantic inclination towards Mami--my impression is that they might just be very genuinely quite good friends. Shigure having a prior romantic interest isn't consistent with the way he was decieving other girls, so the way I'm currently interpreting his behaviour is just that his real friendship with Mami trumps his somewhat unstable romantic interest in Yukina. This isn't really hypocritical, but it does make Shigure a jerk (though we've known that since the start of the series).

As for the question of why Shigure is after Yukina in the first place, the answer was given a couple chapters ago. Shigure basically feels Yukina shouldn't go with anybody else so long as she won't say she doesn't like him. In a sense, I think it's some sort of innocent determination that Yukina's feelings mean more than how she's treating them; it doesn't really have anything to do with his feelings for her, but more with how she acts on her own feelings. Shigure doesn't really have any real reasons to like Yukina yet, aside from finding her cute on a few occasions (not really subtantial); his current behaviour is pretty much a response to Yukina's feelings for him.

Anyway, I was pretty amused by Akira's 'the most exciting thing was playing games with your parents'. Christ, this guy says he wants to be seen as a man, but undermines it with just about every other action. As for Mami, she's sort of devilishly cute with her secret ploy for Akira's attention, but the too perfect timing of it I think hides a possessiveness that is misplaced for her relationship with Shigure. For the way Shigure responded to her, in just about any other manga I think I'd probably be rooting for them, but in this case I don't think Shigure's behaviour can be taken as romantic interest, and that means her possessiveness is just gonna make things get sticky.

Lastly, structurally this chapter was pretty interesting. Both Shigure and Yukina had a negative reaction to realizing that something in the other wasn't exclusive to them: in Shigure's case it was making Yukina's heart throb, and in Yukina's case it was Shigure's real smile. I gotta admit, I'm in suspense, 'cause I don't see how either of them are gonna get what they want anytime soon.
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Old 2010-04-18, 22:27   Link #53
frubam
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^man, you sure put out some interesting discussion. Normally I'd like to reply with a reprisal of some sort as I'm heavily pro-Akira, but I'm trying not to think too much while reading this .

The new chapter was nice. Personally, I was hoping that Yukina would continue to not show interest in Kitami after she saw him and Mami together, but Shigure just HAD to make that proclamation. Somehow I was VERY impressed with how Yukina just decided to give up on him so quickly and how she went through the pain-to-recover stage fast(which was lol in itself ). It was actually refreshing to see Shigure NOT be a hypocrite for once and indirectly relay his feelings to her. And of course, Mami comes in at the end to make her declaration of owning Kitami, but I doubt any one of us DIDN'T see that coming ...
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Old 2010-04-18, 22:51   Link #54
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Well that's pretty cold, I'm probably the only one here who actually likes Shigure I would imagine Anyway, I liked his initiative this time, that whole "I'm mad as heck and I won't take it anymore' kind of attitude is refreshing in comparison to individuals who let other just bully them all the time. And in regards to Sol about 'romantic interest' on Shigure's part, I wouldn't say that's entirely true in that regard, whether he likes to admit it or not Yukina intrigues him, makes him stand up and take notice unlike with other people who were just nameless individuals prior to that. At the very least I think he finds her attractive (going back to the whole cute thing) and she's one of the few people he can actually be genuinely honest with (hence the smile), while at the same time she doesn't indulge him, which I think has earned his respect to a degree. That and he has a super amount of pride, which ties into his resentment at being bullied by Yukina, but also in terms of his jealousy at her apparent loss of interest.

Concerning Shigure, let's look at this from his perspective, he's basically at the top of the school social ladder for the most part and people praise/laud him for his accomplishments and yet no one actually ever takes the opportunity to get to know him or who he is beyond that. And along with that they push all these expectations onto his shoulders that he feels like he has no choice but to keep up appearances. That girl that confessed to him before, totally superficial and she only fancied the idea of loving him given how easily she lets it go. He's bored, and most importantly rather lonely, so he turns that back onto everyone using his 'game' and giving them exactly what their looking for. That's why I find him quite compatible with Yukina in terms of what he needs and what he's really looking for, and why she draws him in. It's not love yet, I'll grant you that, but in light of all the things in regards to their relationship it's a pretty darn good start if I must say so myself.
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Old 2010-04-19, 06:47   Link #55
Sol Falling
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^man, you sure put out some interesting discussion. Normally I'd like to reply with a reprisal of some sort as I'm heavily pro-Akira, but I'm trying not to think too much while reading this .

The new chapter was nice. Personally, I was hoping that Yukina would continue to not show interest in Kitami after she saw him and Mami together, but Shigure just HAD to make that proclamation. Somehow I was VERY impressed with how Yukina just decided to give up on him so quickly and how she went through the pain-to-recover stage fast(which was lol in itself ). It was actually refreshing to see Shigure NOT be a hypocrite for once and indirectly relay his feelings to her. And of course, Mami comes in at the end to make her declaration of owning Kitami, but I doubt any one of us DIDN'T see that coming ...
Thanks for the compliment. (With regards to my absence from the Hourou Musuko thread, maybe I need to read from the start again because unfortunately the latest chapters have not done much for me. I'm glad we got some more Chiba in the latest one, but with the third reprisal of a 'school play' arc before that I was somewhat feeling the manga wasn't getting anywhere.)

...Back on topic. Though, not thinking too much might be the way to go for this manga, 'cause it seems to be moving way too fast for any analysis or long term predictions to hold for long . I said last time that I thought Shigure's interest in Mami wasn't romantic, but in this chapter Yukina clearly took it otherwise, and indeed it was the generic feeling she got from the impression of Shigure subconsciously falling for the act of a cute sick girl that caused her to lose interest in him. Has her interest reawakened because Shigure's not as generic as that after all? Would I be able to safely interpret that to mean Shigure really isn't romantically interested in Mami like I said? That seems possibly to be a stretch...so it might be better to just wait and see more of Shigure next chapter.

Then again, Akira and Yukina's relationship doesn't seem to be in jeopardy anymore by the end of this chapter (at least for the moment! geez, with the way this manga has gone, I bet we'll probably get another cliffhanger in that regard by the next chapter. lol, it's terrible). It seems like Yukina and Mami are heading towards a confrontation next, and this might indicate a return to some of the blackmail/social manuevering/bullying battles like the one's she had with Shigure at the beginning of the manga. I think some readers have been complaining about Yukina not being a strong heroine anymore (though I disagree with that; having some emotional vulnerability that opens her up to the possibility of a deeper romance doesn't make Yukina any less awesome) so that may be a good thing.

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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Well that's pretty cold, I'm probably the only one here who actually likes Shigure I would imagine Anyway, I liked his initiative this time, that whole "I'm mad as heck and I won't take it anymore' kind of attitude is refreshing in comparison to individuals who let other just bully them all the time. And in regards to Sol about 'romantic interest' on Shigure's part, I wouldn't say that's entirely true in that regard, whether he likes to admit it or not Yukina intrigues him, makes him stand up and take notice unlike with other people who were just nameless individuals prior to that. At the very least I think he finds her attractive (going back to the whole cute thing) and she's one of the few people he can actually be genuinely honest with (hence the smile), while at the same time she doesn't indulge him, which I think has earned his respect to a degree. That and he has a super amount of pride, which ties into his resentment at being bullied by Yukina, but also in terms of his jealousy at her apparent loss of interest.

Concerning Shigure, let's look at this from his perspective, he's basically at the top of the school social ladder for the most part and people praise/laud him for his accomplishments and yet no one actually ever takes the opportunity to get to know him or who he is beyond that. And along with that they push all these expectations onto his shoulders that he feels like he has no choice but to keep up appearances. That girl that confessed to him before, totally superficial and she only fancied the idea of loving him given how easily she lets it go. He's bored, and most importantly rather lonely, so he turns that back onto everyone using his 'game' and giving them exactly what their looking for. That's why I find him quite compatible with Yukina in terms of what he needs and what he's really looking for, and why she draws him in. It's not love yet, I'll grant you that, but in light of all the things in regards to their relationship it's a pretty darn good start if I must say so myself.
:P Dude, if by 'likes Shigure' you mean 'am rooting for him to end up with Yukina' then I think there are plenty of people on your side, myself (quite firmly) included. If you're talking about liking him as a person, though, then I think anybody has to admit he's got some faults. Shigure's treatment of Yukina throughout most of what we've seen so far has been highly insensitive towards a girl who actually has a romantic interest in him. It's somewhat justified because Shigure feels he's just being used and manipulated, a feeling which is used to quite good effect this chapter actually, but nonetheless that does nothing to reduce the sheer horror this manga sometimes induces for me when Yukina's 'first love'-esque innocent feelings are completely trampled on. It's only by virtue of a combination of Yukina's strength of character and a somewhat naive/oblivious lack of familiarity with her emotions on her part that their relationship has survived this far. If you remember, my statement about Shigure's lack of real or conscious attraction to Yukina thus far was to explain his almost schizophrenic abandonment of her last chapter in favour of Mami. Frankly, if Shigure really had any 'respect', 'intrigue', or 'notice' for/of her, he'd never have done that.

I agree with you that he's quite compatible with Yukina, in terms of what they both want and need. And indeed, since chapter 9, aside from the cliffhangers, their relationship has been setting off quite nicely. The 'princess' scene we just got in ch. 12 was really awesome in this regard. But it's not because I think Shigure was 'forced' into his deception game and he's looking for someone he doesn't have to play it with. If he were really consciously bored or lonely or looking for a challenge, he wouldn't have kept pushing Yukina away so callously. I think Shigure is only showed his real face to Yukina despite himself, because she sidestepped all his secrets and resistance by force, and the reason their relationship is good for both of them is because it will be one of those cute 'becoming a better person against their will/without knowing it' sort of things.
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Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
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Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-04-19 at 07:06.
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Old 2010-04-19, 08:55   Link #56
HayashiTakara
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Oh Noes! Now it's really fallen into a cliche Shoujo.

-Main girl: socially inept and no one likes
-Main Guy: Popular Good looking, has some sort of trouble baggage, either asshole or emotional issues. Typically the guy that wins at the end.
-Main Guy2: Nice guy that genuinely loves the protagonist from the very beginning, but no matter what has to lose at the end.
-Main Rival Girl: Super cute and sugary sweet on the outside, but evil devil bitch on the downlow.

You can dig your hand into a pot of Shoujo mangas and pull out one out with this exact same set up. I'm sadden... well, I hope the execution of the evil rival is done well.
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Old 2010-04-19, 11:16   Link #57
Sol Falling
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Sorry, but are you kidding me? :P This manga is about as uncliche as you can get.

You've got your 'social outcast schoolgirl protagonist' definition wrong: the correct line is 'poor unpopular girl who no one likes, except the super hot main love interest'. It's practically the complete opposite in this case: bullies don't stand a chance against her, and Yukina is pretty much the one person Shigure cannot stand (even now, they're on pretty rough terms with each other).

As for Shigure, what 'trouble baggage' are you referring to? The only person he's remotely unpleasant towards is Yukina, and that's because she's blackmailing him. Emotional issues? :P I'd have to laugh out loud if anyone tried classifying his petty obsession over being a perfect 'nice guy' and having everybody like him as a serious emotional issue. Why is Shigure going to win at the end? Its not because he's the badboy jerk whom women fall all over themselves chasing, but in fact because he's an immature brat whose relationship would symbolize him getting over himself.

Saying Akira's the genuine nice guy who's loved Yukina from the beginning is also pretty funny. If you haven't noticed, Akira's character has been pretty much explicitly structured as 'a child trying to be seen as a man'. Akira a loving 'nice guy'? :P More like a baby trying to turn his childhood security blanket into a lover. To put it frankly, neither of the male leads are anywhere near the standard shoujo bishounen.

Mami's defining trait is also not being a two-faced 'bitch', but rather her chronic sickness. Due to her constant absences, her long relationship with Shigure probably makes him the only friend she even has. Her possessiveness over Shigure doubtlessly stems not from self-entitlement due to his or her (shallow) popularity, but a loneliness and attachment to her only real connection. Just like with Yukina, Mami is practically the opposite of the standard 'two-faced' love rival: in Mami's case, the one Mami shows her 'devillish' real face to is Shigure, i.e. the main love interest, while it's everyone else who gets her 'sweet' side.

Like I've said before, you shouldn't try to pigeonhole these characters into the standard shoujo archetypes. If you take a deeper look at them, they end up fitting very badly; I'd say, Shigure and Akira especially.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2010-04-19, 12:38   Link #58
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Sorry, but are you kidding me? :P This manga is about as uncliche as you can get.

You've got your 'social outcast schoolgirl protagonist' definition wrong: the correct line is 'poor unpopular girl who no one likes, except the super hot main love interest'. It's practically the complete opposite in this case: bullies don't stand a chance against her, and Yukina is pretty much the one person Shigure cannot stand (even now, they're on pretty rough terms with each other).
Sorry but personality aside she's still socially inept. The fact that everyone "hates" her is enough to drop her in that category.

Quote:
As for Shigure, what 'trouble baggage' are you referring to? The only person he's remotely unpleasant towards is Yukina, and that's because she's blackmailing him. Emotional issues? :P I'd have to laugh out loud if anyone tried classifying his petty obsession over being a perfect 'nice guy' and having everybody like him as a serious emotional issue. Why is Shigure going to win at the end? Its not because he's the badboy jerk whom women fall all over themselves chasing, but in fact because he's an immature brat whose relationship would symbolize him getting over himself.
Sorry if some guy makes a game out of how many girls he's rejected is going to have some underlying emotional issues. The "I'm popular but don't know real love" theme has been played to death as well. He's a dick on the inside and a nice guy on the outside, that within itself is a person with issues.

He's a selfish egomaniac, why? we don't know yet, it could be that's how he is, or it could be due to some emotional scarring.

Quote:
Saying Akira's the genuine nice guy who's loved Yukina from the beginning is also pretty funny. If you haven't noticed, Akira's character has been pretty much explicitly structured as 'a child trying to be seen as a man'. Akira a loving 'nice guy'? :P More like a baby trying to turn his childhood security blanket into a lover. To put it frankly, neither of the male leads are anywhere near the standard shoujo bishounen.
Akira is still the nice guy that loves Yukina first, Yukina has always been there for him. They've always been close watching out for one another whats wrong with wanting to love and be loved by said person? I see nothing absolutely nothing wrong with it. But just from reading those lines, I can tell what you said is stemming from a hate towards the character.

Quote:
Mami's defining trait is also not being a two-faced 'bitch', but rather her chronic sickness. Due to her constant absences, her long relationship with Shigure probably makes him the only friend she even has. Her possessiveness over Shigure doubtlessly stems not from self-entitlement due to his or her (shallow) popularity, but a loneliness and attachment to her only real connection. Just like with Yukina, Mami is practically the opposite of the standard 'two-faced' love rival: in Mami's case, the one Mami shows her 'devillish' real face to is Shigure, i.e. the main love interest, while it's everyone else who gets her 'sweet' side.
We know next to nothing on Mami, we know that she's very close to Shigure. Although it's obvious she's not in as poor health as everyone seem to think she is. She just fakes it a lot to keep Shigure's attention although he's already aware of it since they've been friends for a long time. But you know she's still gonna do some bitch moves, especially after that "evil smile" in ch.12. Every "bitch" character in Shoujo's have a reason for doing what they do, whatever the reason is doesn't change the role of the character.

Quote:
Like I've said before, you shouldn't try to pigeonhole these characters into the standard shoujo archetypes. If you take a deeper look at them, they end up fitting very badly; I'd say, Shigure and Akira especially.
I'm only saying it how it is. I won't sugar coat it to make it look better. The execution is still enjoyable albeit extremely predictable.

- Yukina is still the cliche social outcast - difference? She's not a weak easily intimidated loser.

- Shigure is still the popular hot boy of the school - difference? He wears a facade of being a nice guy, but he's still a dick.

- Akira is still the "nice-guy" of the two rivals. No difference from the usual, unless you want to dissect it with your personal interpretations.

- Mami; not much is known yet. But you can tell already that she's going to be the bitch rival. Circumstances for being a bitch doesn't matter, every character of this category has some motive/reason/whatever for doing it.
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Old 2010-04-19, 13:44   Link #59
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
I'm only saying it how it is. I won't sugar coat it to make it look better. The execution is still enjoyable albeit extremely predictable.

- Yukina is still the cliche social outcast - difference? She's not a weak easily intimidated loser.

- Shigure is still the popular hot boy of the school - difference? He wears a facade of being a nice guy, but he's still a dick.

- Akira is still the "nice-guy" of the two rivals. No difference from the usual, unless you want to dissect it with your personal interpretations.

- Mami; not much is known yet. But you can tell already that she's going to be the bitch rival. Circumstances for being a bitch doesn't matter, every character of this category has some motive/reason/whatever for doing it.
:P I don't see how Yukina can be the cliche social outcast when the defining point of the cliche is how they're usually poor misunderstood girls who supposedly 'deserve better'. Being a social outcast is supposed to make readers feel sorry for her, so that they cheer when she gets the popular hot guy. Yukina, on the other hand, is not a victim or an audience stand-in.

The difference with Akira also isn't that he's a nice guy, it's the fact that he's a dick, but only to the protagonist, and only for immature reasons. The importance of this is that it means his dickishness is not at all attractive, which is the whole point of the 'bad boy' trope: usually, the dangerousness or uncontrollability of an asshole is used to give female readers a thrill.

What I said about Akira wasn't 'personal interpretation', it's clearly there in the story: Akira wants Yukina to see him as a 'man', but in all his past scenes and a large portion of his present ones he is the embodiment of a childish personality. He thought the best part of the sleepover was playing games together with Yukina's parents; he talks about how loneliness when Yukina is with other people makes him 'unable to eat his favourite dinner'; and he constantly searches for Yukina during the breaks only because he wants to 'eat lunch together'. Akira's feelings for Yukina aren't presented as a desirable faithfulness or loyalty, they are presented explicitly as a child-like attachment. Whether or not Akira will be successful in transforming into a man is still up in the air, but he is clearly not the shoujo 'nice-guy' whose appeal is their long-term loyalty. Case in point: suppose Akira does win Yukina, how would he do it? By waiting for her faithfully, loving her unconditionally? Or by being a man like he says he is, actually leading her and making her heart throb?

As for Mami being a 'bitch rival', the point is those are usually portrayed as clear villains. By having a genuine relationship with Shigure, Mami is already more interesting for that alone. You don't find many love rivals who already have a deep and mutual relationship with the love interest. If you want to put it in your terms: Mami isn't the two-faced devil bitch, she's the sick girl who's always been close and watched out for each other with Shigure, the girl who has 'loved him from the very beginning but no matter what has to lose'. Mami is actually a fairly close parallel with Akira, so I find it pretty funny that you're just writing her off as a bitch while cheering for the other guy.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
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Old 2010-04-19, 16:33   Link #60
KrimzonStriker
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:P Dude, if by 'likes Shigure' you mean 'am rooting for him to end up with Yukina' then I think there are plenty of people on your side, myself (quite firmly) included. If you're talking about liking him as a person, though, then I think anybody has to admit he's got some faults. Shigure's treatment of Yukina throughout most of what we've seen so far has been highly insensitive towards a girl who actually has a romantic interest in him. It's somewhat justified because Shigure feels he's just being used and manipulated, a feeling which is used to quite good effect this chapter actually, but nonetheless that does nothing to reduce the sheer horror this manga sometimes induces for me when Yukina's 'first love'-esque innocent feelings are completely trampled on. It's only by virtue of a combination of Yukina's strength of character and a somewhat naive/oblivious lack of familiarity with her emotions on her part that their relationship has survived this far. If you remember, my statement about Shigure's lack of real or conscious attraction to Yukina thus far was to explain his almost schizophrenic abandonment of her last chapter in favour of Mami. Frankly, if Shigure really had any 'respect', 'intrigue', or 'notice' for/of her, he'd never have done that.

I agree with you that he's quite compatible with Yukina, in terms of what they both want and need. And indeed, since chapter 9, aside from the cliffhangers, their relationship has been setting off quite nicely. The 'princess' scene we just got in ch. 12 was really awesome in this regard. But it's not because I think Shigure was 'forced' into his deception game and he's looking for someone he doesn't have to play it with. If he were really consciously bored or lonely or looking for a challenge, he wouldn't have kept pushing Yukina away so callously. I think Shigure is only showed his real face to Yukina despite himself, because she sidestepped all his secrets and resistance by force, and the reason their relationship is good for both of them is because it will be one of those cute 'becoming a better person against their will/without knowing it' sort of things.
I wasn't doubting that, what puts me in the minority is that I actually do LIKE Shigure's character. It's rough around the edges and the man definitely has his faults, I won't defend him on that score but I do rather feel people are a bit too harsh at times. Quite frankly, this whole thing started out in a completely insensitive manner given how he was cajoled into it as you point out, that Yukina told him quite plainly she had no feelings for him at the beginning and was only using him for practice because he was inconsequential and convenient, and it wasn't as if he didn't show regret some of his actions toward her. If we're talking about feelings getting trampled on, I rather think Shigure doesn't quite believe or trust Yukina's feelings towards him which should also be understandable, and is represented in his resentment/jealously and his new goal of making her fall in love with him instead (look how off-guard he was when she told him she liked him at the end of their date and how self-conscious he felt acted) And c'mon, it wasn't all Yukina, she's wavered at times too and Shigure's own stubbornness and initiative also came to the rescue as well, like in the latest chapter. I'd say most of it probably is unconscious... REALLY unconscious, though I am rather keen to point out his awareness of it at the very least, even if he hasn't quite categorized or figured it out just yet, neither has Yukina quite frankly, and the relationship as a whole is rather fragile in comparison to say a child-hood friend. But the interest is there whether he admits it or not, else he simply wouldn't care, and it is growing day by day I would say.

Once again I think we're veering off too much into the conscious action department, because we've seen plenty of examples where Shigure takes certain actions in regards to Yukina and has no real explanation for it. And rejecting a foreign presence is a rather natural response, even if one isn't happy or is even harmed by the current environment he lives in he's at least familiar with and at this point probably used to it, so much so that a new catalyst which threatens to upend it will be initially rejected right away even if it isn't to his benefit to do so, a difference between what one wants and what one needs I suppose. I make that point in regards to both his callous and condescending attitude to how people treat him in comparison to how vigorously he works at trying to maintain it. Exactly, it's a process in work at this point, but he's becoming more comfortable with being honest with himself, which makes it more of being the person he really is rather then being a better person in general, I think. In a sense both he and Yukina have shut off parts of themselves and are now just beginning to rediscover, explore, and develop them.
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